Confessions of a Phosphate addict.

iheartmaytag · Jul 28, 2011

Hi, My name is IheartMaytag, and this is my story.

 

I didn’t start out my life thinking I would be phosphate dependent. I just took it for granted they would always be there. When the manufactures took phosphates out of laundry detergent, I was able to survive. It wasn’t until automatic dishwashing detergent had it’s phosphates removed that I started to wonder what it would be like to experiment with phosphates. 

 

Sodium tripolyphosphate (STTP) or Na5P3O10 as the chemist like to call it is an inorganic compound of sodium salt and polyphosphate which is conjugated with a base of triphosphoric acid. STTP is highly water-soluble, non-toxic, approximately two million tons of STTP are produced per year. Much is/was consumed as builders for detergents, Other uses are preservatives for fish, poultry, and baked goods. STTP also finds it’s way into leather tanning, ceramics, flame retardants and antifreeze. 

 

The biggest negative the Environmental Protection Agency had against STTP was the eutrophication of many fresh waterways that if found it’s way into via waste disposal and run off. Beings as phosphorus can generate it’s weight 500 times in algae the risk to waterways prompted the ban of this additive in many areas. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_triphosphate

 

With this knowledge I was determined to tough it with the rest of the country and use my phosphate free detergent, but I couldn't. My first step to the addiction was I began hoarding packages of Cascade Complete 8% phosphate before the ban. I bought as many bags as I could afford everytime I went to the store. Then suddenly, it was gone. The light green packages appeared on the shelves. 

 

Hearing complaints from others, I was worried, but with every load I washed, I would say this is just until they get a new formula that worked as well as phosphates. Then I would asked myself. Is this load dirty enough, does it warrant the use of my “good stuff”? So I bought my first package of Cascade Complete phosphate free. At first I though the results were pretty good, good enough not to use anything from my stash, then I began noticing that even with Jet Dry there seemed to be a white film on the dishes when I took them out of the dishwasher. “It must have just been that load” I said to myself. I will use the good stuff in the next load. But when the next load was ready, I couldn’t bear to get into my stash. What If I had a really dirty load? I can’t waste it. 

 

Like so many others in the group I was headed down the path of addiction, but still didn’t realize it. I began product switching. I knew I could quit phosphates anytime I wanted to, I just didn’t want to. I read Automaticwasher.org everyday and many people were saying good things about Finish so I bought a trial box. Like Cascade before it, at first I thought I had good results. So I bought a second box, and again thought the results were pretty good, but I was noticing the tell-tale white powder on the dishes. Still I bought the third box, it was then that I noticed the white scale was starting to build on the heating element, as well as there were brown stain/streaks appearing on the dishwasher interior. 

 

What should I do? If I continued to use my stash I would be completely out in about three months. I tried washing every other load with the good stuff, and continued to use the Finish powerball in between. I considered Glass Magic, at 22% phosphate it would do the job, but $3.65 for a 12oz box, this just would not do. 

 

Finally like so many addicts have done, I began phosphate seeking behaviors, searching for a phosphate fix, a supplier that wouldn’t run out on me, a dealer that would be economical, keep me happy, but serve my needs when I had them, best of all a supplier that would be there for me always. I found the Chemistry store on Google, and ordered an 11 lb tub of STTP and had it shipped. 

 

My fist fix, was pure euphoria. I added just 1 TBSP of STTP with the Finish capsule and ran a soiled load with a baked bean crusted casserole on the Autoclean cycle. To my amazement when I opened the door, the dishes sparkled, and the brown stains were gone, not faded, gone from the interior. Everything was clean including the heating element. I was hooked, I bought a sugar dispenser and filled it with STTP and marking it with a black Sharpie. I kept it right next to the detergent above the dishwasher. 

 

Next I thought, I have this big tub of STTP, why not try it in the laundry. I was amazed again, the Whites sparkled, the towels felt softer, and the rinse water was clear. I placed a small container in the pedestal so it would be handy and sealed my tub for future use. 

 

Now the greatest issued with my addiction—I don’t want to quit. I said I could quit when I wanted to, but I can’t. I could buy a water softener, but the $27.17 tub of STTP is much more economical. I rationalize that the salt from a softener is harmful to the waterways as well, and I would be releasing 25lbs or more a month with that method. For now all I can confess is—I am a Phosphate addict. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[this post was last edited: 7/28/2011-12:00]

mark_wpduet · Jul 28, 2011

LOL! Me too!

I will say it's interesting though that the Cascade that had phosphates in it before the ban does a somewhat better job than adding STPP into the phosphate free detergent.

Why? I don't know. But there is a slight difference I notice

iheartmaytag · Jul 28, 2011

I wonder what would happen if we added the STTP to the phospated Cascade?

OH-NO!!! I can't stop!!

I wonder if it has something to do with the enzymes in the new stuff? Maybe the "Good" Cascade had a different formula to work with the phosphates.

tomturbomatic · Jul 28, 2011

Welcome, IheartMaytag!

You made the right decision. You are happier, your soiled items are cleaner and your dishwasher and automatic washer thank you.

A difference between the two formulas' performance might be attributable to the difference between detergents with enzymes and detergents with chlorine bleach which you can't have with enzymes. Hot water, chlorine and phosphate in otherwise equal formulas will be more of a powerhouse against stains and most soils. As powerful a cleaner as the phosphated food service Cascade is, if I don't occasionally add some of the gel formula Cascade with bleach, I notice plastic sports bottles' parts staining from the tea I carry in them.

mark_wpduet · Jul 28, 2011

Yes. I remember well that Chlorine smell from Cascade while the dishwasher was running. To me it was subtle. I know some find it offensive, but I actually liked it. Such a clean disinfected smell. I've tried to new Cascade with "bleach" powder, but that's not chlorine bleach and it's not the same. Since there is no more phosphates, wouldn't that mean ALL detergents on the market HAVE to have enzymes to work, thus not being able to have bleach at all? This never occurred to me until you mentioned it.

strongenough78 · Jul 28, 2011

My name's Vern, and I'm a phos-aholic.

I too am a Phosphate addict. Ever since I purchased a tub of STPP, I never go to the laundromat without it. And I am ALWAYS on the lookout for Cascade with phosphates whenever I go to Big Lots or The Grocery Outlet, since they seem to be the only 2 places in my area that still carry it. But really, if STPP is something that's used in almost everything anyway, and it still gets put into the environment through human and animal waste, why take it out of detergents where it's best needed?

bugsyjones · Jul 28, 2011

I must have phosphates. So I buy Institutional Cascade and Mexican Ariel Laundry detergent.

I buy them at a great expense, but to me, it's worth every penny.

I could care less about the environment or energy efficiency.

(This message brought to you by Monsanto.)

~Tim J.

polkanut · Jul 28, 2011

Vern,

It's STTP, not STPP.

iheartmaytag · Jul 28, 2011

It's STTP, not STPP.

I purchased STPP, Sodium Tripolyphosphate.

From what I read STPP doesn't form a precipitate or soap scum. On the internet I have seen STTP and STPP interchanged, on the Chemistery store website it is listed as STPP.

OH Laundress--ruling please.

http://www.chemistrystore.com/Chemicals_S-Z-Sodium_Tripolyphosphate.html

launderess · Jul 28, 2011

Only Cascade Formula With Chlorine Bleach

Was or is the commercial version sold for insitutional kitchens. All other versions of the product contain sodium percarbonate which you will find listed on the label.

As for differences in cleaning power of the phosphate version versus without the formula was likely changed to compensate for the many functions STPP provides but that may not work well with everyone's local water.

Tried a few loads of adding extra STPP to Cascade with phosphates and didn't notice a difference worth bothering, so don't anymore.

DADoES · Jul 28, 2011

Per Wikipedia.org (perhaps a bit questionable as an authority), Sodium Triphosphate is variously referred to as STP, STPP (Sodium TriPolyPhosphate, or TPP.

TriSodium Phosphate (TSP) is sometimes mistakenly cited or used, but is not the correct additive.

mark_wpduet · Jul 28, 2011

I see the institutional Cascade here that has phosphates, but on the 2nd row in the middle that shows a picture of a case of cascade that looks like the boxes of residential Cascade with phosphates used to look a few years ago. I wonder if that has phosphates as well?

Cascade®

ReStockIt

www.restockit.com

strongenough78 · Jul 28, 2011

Actually, on the bucket I have, Tim, it does say STPP.

frigilux · Jul 28, 2011

Just don't start rolling up dollar bills and hoovering the stuff up your nose, sweetie.

whirlcool · Jul 28, 2011

Harley:

Thanks for posting your confession. That was my exact behavior too. I bought a sizable stash of the phosphated DW detergent just before they stopped making it.
We were using Walmart Great Value with STPP added to it. It worked ok.

Just recently our grocery store had Finish Quantumm tabs on sale for $5.00 per box of 25. I bought a box to try. I didn't add any STPP. I was amazed at the outcome.
No spots on the glasses or the DW interior. I think they may have found a non phosphate detergent that works. But we still have at least 10 pkgs of the old phosphated stuff in case the Quantum stops working.

tomturbomatic · Jul 28, 2011

The first box on the screen in Mark's link with the narrower green banner on the left and dishwasher detergent in three languages on the right is the commercial powerhouse I buy at the wholesale hardware place. In the ingredients listing, they call
(STTP) or Na5P3O10 by one of its alternate names, tripolypentasodium phosphate which acknowledges the 5 atoms of sodium in the molecule. The phosphorus content is not more than 7.0% phosphorus, in the form of phosphates, which is equivalent to 0.9 grams per tablespoon. The first ingredient in the formula is sodium carbonate so it is not as good as in the good old days, but no doubt better than most of what is available on the store shelves.

iheartmaytag · Jul 29, 2011

Whirlcool, The Finish Quantaumm is what I use too. It seemed ok for the first box or two, then I started seeing the white film, and thats when I noticed the brown streaks on the dishwasher interior, and the crust forming on the heating element.

I do think it has to do with the water hardness. Here the Air-cap pulls it's water from several different sources. If they are pulling from Cheney Reservior it isn't too bad, but we have times of the year when there is an off taste. If they are pulling from the Auquis beds the water is harder. I think the city tries to mix the two to give us a blend of hardness and better taste. The city has also recently added ultraviolet ozone treatment to get rid of the fishy hot piss smell.

In any case you can notice a difference in washing results.

iheartmaytag · Jul 29, 2011

Just don't start rolling up dollar bills and hoovering t

Well first of all I would never Hoover anything. This is a Kirby house, always has been, always will be.

Does it matter if you find yourself hiding small butter tubs of STPP around the house so it will be handy if you need it quickly?

I have sugar dispenser filled for easy dispensing by the dishwasher detergent. There is a larger tub under the washer in the pedistal. And I have a small butter tub under the sink in the bathroom, you would be surprised how much easier those bathtub rings and hard water scale comes off the shower if you add a pinch to your cleaning water.

gmmcnair · Jul 29, 2011

I truly sympathize....

...Portland is a soft water area so no white film on anything. That being said, the phosphate free stuff still doesn't clean like the old stuff did. I have a choice of good cleaning with the Finish Powerball tabs, and filming on my glassware (because my water is too soft), OR so so cleaning with a powder and gel. Finish Gel, although it's bottom rated by CR seems to clean okay on everything except cookware and gets stains off.

I usually reserve my STPP for my extra dirty laundry loads. Since I've recently become hive and rash central from commercial detergents, I make my own soap powder for the laundry. I make it from scratch too, with lye, water, and usually lard. A tablespoon of STPP to boost the cleaning power probably isn't as bad as some of the other stuff in the waterways, and I still have clean sparkly clothes with no soap buildup.

Confessions of a Phosphate addict.

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