Consumer Reports Detergents test

[sudsmaster]

This really is one issue that does belong in the "States' Rights" category. For very sound technical, and not political, reasons.

The arid states of the southwest do NOT have a problem, by and large, with lake eutrophication from phosphates. The major water pollutant of concern is nitrate, not phosphate. I can understand that wetter states of the Northwest, Northeeast, and South may have more of an issue. But I also feel that what with tertiary water treatment capable of removing most phosphate (and humans naturally excrete large amounts anyway), it's becoming more and more of a technical non-issue.

 

[launderess]

It was the water treatment bit that factored into all this:

Federal government was starting to lean on many states, including New York about the quality of water in some areas, and was going to start ordering new treatment plants, or whatever it took to remove certain substances from waste water.

Staring down the barrel of spending millions (which many cash strapped states don't have), many looked for ways to keep the Feds off their back.

In some states many "tree hugger" groups simply have a thing for phosphates and ironically the STPP laden Mexican detergents got many riled up, and when they finished getting that stuff off local store shelves, turned their attention to DW detergents. Many of these groups either began or threatened to begin lawsuits based upon the Clean Water Act to force local authorities hands.

By the way, while at the supermarket the other day noticed at least two dishwasher detergents still list phosphates on their packages. Both Finish gel, and Electrasol tablets still contain phosphates, again at least according to their packages. How long this will last is anyone's guess.

 

[jerrod6]

According to my water company the hardness of the water in my section of the city ranges from 4 to 13 gpg depending on the time of year. During the summer it seems to be at the upper end. I don't khow if this is hard or soft but I do get remaining suds in the rinses when using Tide. At one point it was so bad that I began to break out in a rash due to detergent, according to my doctor, so this is why I am concerned with rinseabliliy. Once I switched the rash went away.

 

[sudsmaster]

Again, this is NOT a political issue.

How else would one explain that ultra-liberal California has no ban on phosphated laundry or dishwasher detergents, except perhaps for the Lake Tahoe basin (an extremely small percentage of the state's population actually lives there anyway)?

So please stop portraying this as a liberal vs. the rest of us conflict. It simply isn't.

 

[frigilux]

Jerrod---If the degree of hardness was described to you in "grains per gallon", your water goes from moderately hard to very hard. In those cases, you should be seeing very little to no suds in your rinses.

If they meant to tell you those numbers in "parts per million" or "milligrams per liter", then you soft water (which is common in parts of the northeast and northwest) and you'd be seeing suds in your rinses. I'm guessing they meant parts per million; otherwise you have a pretty wild fluctuation in your water hardness during the year.

 

[frigilux]

Jerrod---If the degree of hardness was described to you in "grains per gallon", your water goes from moderately hard to very hard. In those cases, you should be seeing very little to no suds in your rinses.

If they meant to tell you those numbers in parts per million or milligrams per liter--the most frequently used scale--then you have soft water (which occurs naturally in parts of the northeast and northwest) and you'd be seeing suds in your rinses.

I'm guessing they meant parts per million; otherwise you have a pretty wild fluctuation in your water hardness during the year.

 

[frigilux]

Jerrod--Here's something I found at the city of Philadelphia's website. Your water is definitely not soft, but fluctuates from 'moderately hard' to 'hard'. I'm surprised you're finding suds in your rinse water. Maybe Tide has become even more suds-tenacious in the past couple of years!

 

[frigilux]

Here's a table of water hardness for any who may be curious.

 

[jerrod6]

Thanks for the table! I got the 4 to 13 GPG numbers from my cities annual water report. It contains a map of the rivers we draw the water from and the treatment plants on each river.
The map shows which areas each river and plant services. Then there is a table that gives various water characteristics from each plant. My area of the city receives a mixture of water from two plants, so I used a combination of hardness numbers from both.

My DW will show the water hardness of the last cycle. I just checked it and it is showing 12, in the fall the number is around 7. Not sure this is in GPG it might be in D.

If I use Persil or Miele detergents the water is clear in the second rinse. I wonder if there might be some other chemical in the water that reacts and causes the suds?

 

[frigilux]

We get all our water from wells, around here. My water hardness averages about 400 parts-per-million, which is very hard---although not as hard as in some parts of Europe, which can top 1,000 ppm. Needless to say, I wouldn't want to be without a mechanical water softener.

I spend a fair amount of time in Seattle, and I think they have nice, naturally soft water; at least that's true for the neighborhood I stay in. It's soft, but not "mechanically-softened" soft, so soap rinses off easily in the shower, etc.

 

[vacfanatic]

Sears Ultra Plus - Stain Fighting Formula

I picked up a box of 125 load Sears Ultra Plus in the green box which is 13 lbs, for $13.89 at Sears including tax. It only requires 1/2 scoop, so the box is actualy 250 loads for front load HE machines. Comes in at just under .18 cents per load, can't beat that! It seems to work great and I love the little bit of suds it does make in the Miele. Makes for a good wash viewing At the cost per load, this is a great buy. I would imagine the way I wash clothes this should last me at least 6 months!

 

[vacfanatic]

 

[frigilux]

Nice Miele, Andrew!

This is what is frustrating about Tide (perhaps Procter & Gamble detergents in general): The amount of suds in the wash portion of the cycle is similar to the photo above. The problems start in the rinses, which all seem to have as much suds as the wash cycle did.

I use SA8 for loads of bath towels. A scoop of that makes the usual amount of suds in the wash, but the third rinse is almost completely suds-free, even in my hyper-soft water. SA8 used to clean much better than it does now, so it is not my daily-driver detergent. I've gone back to liquid Tide With Bleach Alternative HE.

I think more people would be inclined to use Tide products---most of which clean very well---if they had cleaner-rinsing formulas.

 

[jerrod6]

Yes this is what my wash looks like when I use Tide and the rinses don't get much better.

 

[magic clean]

Interesting!

Just finished up a bottle of Tide HE w/Colorclean and it was a very low sudser and clean rinser in the Calypso. Just cracked open the new pump bottle of Method HE and it makes no suds....even with an intentional overdose.

The water here is about 6-7 grains hard....so not too bad.

 

[whirlcool]

We have 9 grains in our water here, no water softener and we can't use Tide either because of sensitive skin and rinsing issues. Even if we use half of the recommended amount we still have suds in the final extra rinse.

We tried Cheer HE once, it left the clothes with a chemical smell. Peril, FOCA, and All work and rinse nicely. So that's what we have been using.

 

[nmassman44]

Tide HE powder does not suds up at all and rinses clean. The liquids I stay away from in my Miele since it and the drum design= causes suds to occur and the scolding of the oversuds light to be lit up. The above pic of the Miele shows suds but if it was Tide He liquid it would be another story..suds would be half way up the door.

 

[jerrod6]

What is it about the drum design?

 

[nmassman44]

Miele's HoneyComb drum has less holes in it and the wash action I find can create alot of suds. The drum also holds the water longer to create a skim layer of water to cushon the clothes and drive the water into the fabrics. Plus the HydroMatic wash action adds to the drama. Thats why in the pic above there is suds.

 

[combo52]

SUDS IN THE RINSE CYCLE

FL washers are suds making machines you can put clothes in with no detergent and see suds. The fact that you are seeing suds in the rinse cycle and not in the wash cycle doesn't mean that the clothes aren't being rinsed properly. Its because the suds suppressants that are in HE detergents rinse away and then you see a few suds in the rinses. But as long as the machine is going through the spin cycles properly with out suds locking a little foam in the rinses should be of no concern. In fact you don't want to over rinse with hard water you just end up harsh grey clothes as you deposit all the minerals from the hard water back into the clothes. But a lot of what you see depends on the type of washer you use. In my Calypso I can have 3" of suds in the wash and have nothing in the rinse cycle at all, although I will say the Calypso is about the best rinsing washer I have ever had. I always like to use the bleach test, when I can put a full dose of bleach in a wash load and not smell bleach when its done I think the machine is doing a good job rinsing. P S chlorine bleach will not hurt the aluminum spider in F L washers, in fact its very beneficial in keeping all the stuff from clinging to and growing on the spider and allowing the corrosion to set in and destroy it.

 

[frigilux]

If liquid chlorine bleach is bad for front-loaders, my 8-year old Frigidaire should have been dead long ago. I wash at least 3-4 loads a week with a full dose of LCB.

The owner's manual for the brand new Frigidaires has for "regular" and "aggressive" washer-cleaning procedures.

The aggressive procedure (to be used when mold/bad smells are quite evident) includes using EIGHT CUPS of liquid chlorine bleach in the cleaning cycle. And it says the process may need to be repeated 2 or 3 times to tackle really bad mold problems.

 

[vacfanatic]

Detergent Link

Here is a nice link about all kinds of detergents I bookmarked. Thought I'd share.

Andrew

http://powder-detergent-stores.blogspot.com/

 

[jt1985]

All Oxi Active

I used it in a few loads was amazed. It removed more stains than my usual, All Small & Mighty with Snuggle. It produced little suds and it left a nice scent behind and blended well with Snuggle Green Burst.

 

[jerrod6]

Honeycomb drum - Thanks nmassman44. What is this wash action you mention?

Chlorine Bleach. I believe the manual for my machine says not to use it because the outter drum is stainless steel. No matter I don't seem to need it anyway.

 

[passatdoc]

38 gpg in ground water

I checked my city water report. They give a figure of 38 gpg (grains per gallon) for ground water and a figure for the Metropolitan Water District (that supplies much of Southern California) as 9 gpg. I believe our tap water is roughly half imported and half from wells, but I sent an e-mail to the water quality office asking them if they know what the gpg at the water tap is. The only figures listed for tap water were for toxic stuff like lead and copper.

Our city put in a groundwater recovery unit and in the winter (when no one irrigates) we are now an net EXPORTER of water, producing 1-2 million excess gallons per day and no imports. In summer, when irrigation increases, we are partly dependent on outside water sources rather than just wells.