Continued Adventures with the Whirlpool TotalCoverage DW

[appnut]

I'm really beginning to doubt even more Reviewed.com's objectivity and sincerity.  I just read their review of your model.  I really think they are biased toward European brands.  The only thing I agree with them about is their comment about tea stains remaining in mugs.  I have that problem sporadically.  They rated yours with a 6.6.  They gave a score of 8.3 for the Elite 14763, the model below mine with the MicroClean filter.  They reviewed the Elite 14823 today, the windowed version of mine.  It got a 7.8 score.  Me thinks there are some inconsistencies in their testing and reflective of their scores.  Their water consumption figures for these two Elites on the Normal Cycle were different.  I am of the opinion your testing is far more meticulous than theirs.  I just sense some irregularities they aren't mentioning.  Who knows, maybe completely different people loaded these 3 different machines.  Maybe temperature of the room, who knows what else.  They dissed the think dishware/rimmed soup bowls stability on the 14823 and had photo.  They had the back row of tines in the 180 degree position.  With that row set at 90 degrees (for TZ use,  I have the greatest stability with my rimmed soup bowls and similar thick dishware and this was the case with the previous Elite I had too.  Far superior to any other dishwasher I've owned, including the GSD1200. 

 

[washer111]

Pretty impressive for one of these supposedly "silly" "manual-clean" filter designs, no? Unless I'm mistaken and it has a food disposer of some description in there?

You did really well with loading the machine, and I'm proud to see another person has seen the light, and isn't an avid pre-rinser/scraper

Burnt-On things can be a real challenge for a lot of machines, and I guess how well they clean depends on more than just loading or cycle selection. Temperature, detergent, spray patterns all work to make or break the deal. I've had great results with potato-bake dishes that have been reheated far too many times during the course of a weak with the Dish-Drawer. Only trouble is, you loose about 40% loading capacity as a result of putting that casserole in there

 

[murando531]

I agree, Bob. There's far too much inconsistency on both major review sites for machines that have the *exact* same mechanics. What I found interesting was in addition to the KA and KM identical twins to my machine getting much higher scores, the machine that was given a 10.0 at that time was an Electrolux, which left the same amount of burnt cheese on the same bowl, but where they "scolded" the WP, they praised Elux for the same performance.

@washer111 - I've definitely had a drastic change of heart on the subject, but to be fair in regards to WP, I had my doubts during the time before they revised the filter and drain port design, where anything bigger than a small grain of rice would remain stuck behind. I think now, while I love self-clean disposal designs because of nostalgia, I definitely have started to prefer the removable design. It's nice to easily check now and then to make sure nothing harmful has gotten stuck inside.

In all honesty, I've been a no-prerinse activist since falling in love with my aunt's PowerClean back in the mid 00s. Not an item that goes into my machine is touched by a drop of water before a cycle, but in our case most of our meals consist of grilled or roasted meats and vegetables and only occasionally do we have "messy" foods like mac & cheese or casseroles, so that's largely to blame for our dish loads not seeming as filthy as they *should* be, haha. And as washer111 pointed out, I usually just hand wash the large baking dishes and other items simply because they take up so much space, and because I use most of the items almost every day. I love only running fully packed loads of everyday items like plates, bowls, and glasses/cups. It just looks more aesthetically pleasing to me.

 

[murando531]

And no, no grinder/disposal system at all. The drain pump is the same pump and impeller design since the Voyagers, and the wash impeller, as far as I could tell from parts photos, is a turbine style disk.

 

[gelaundry4ever]

non prerinser

I too have been a non prerinser since 1999. Most of the dishwashers I have hade were equipped with built in disposers. In about the mid 2000's, which I believe was 2004, I had a tall tub dishwasher which I have been using since then. My first dishwasher, however, was a standard tub.

 

[jerrod6]

Tea stains remaining in mugs

Isn't this more a function of detergent effectiveness than a brand of DW? Or is it the water temperature being used?

 

[murando531]

I haven't had any issues with coffee or tea stains at all, and I usually always have one or two cups from coffee a day. I have only used Cascade Platinum so far though. I think because mine and Bob's machines are very very similar, it probably could boil down to water hardness or temps or detergent type. At least it's safe to say it's most certainly not an issue of water pressure or coverage.

 

[gelaundry4ever]

pump design

Thanks for clearing that up. I guess the only Whirlpool line with the grinder is the Maytags. My dad has the Whirlpool with the grinder, while my mom has the Kenmore with the filter. That explains why I hear the fan with the older models.

 

[logixx]

Tea stains

Most, if not all, dishwasher detergents contain bleach activators to clean stains in the ultra-low water temp that some dishwashers use these days. In Europe, it's usually TAED, while Cascade Platinum Pacs, for example, use Amine Cobalt Salt.

 

[appnut]

Tea stain problems

I use Cascade Complete powder and I also use Cascade Platinum (either the Dawn Formula or the Clorox Formula).  And I always put a little bit of powder in the prewash dispenser.  I find the tea stains are far better dealt with effectively with high-temp option selected, particularly when Pots & Pans is used.  What amazes me is when run on that cycle, the copper bottoms of my Revere Ware look like they've been polished.  Never have seen that emerging from a dishwasher.  I don't know what my water hardness is.  When using the Smart Wash (sensor) cycle, it seems to defer more readily to lesser soil options.  The other night I came back into the kitchen and it had started the 1st post-wash rinse--one that pulses on for 5 to 10 seconds and sits for 30 seconds.  That's a lower-energy sequence.  But the machine did drain prewash water before going into main wash.  This occasion, the main wash was only about 40 minutes.  when I walked into the kitchen I was like, seriously?  You gotta be kidding.  I thought there as dirtier things in the load than for this sequence.  (I've only used thus far Pots & Pans, Smart Wash, and 1-Hour cycles).  I've not used Normal at all.  Andrew did influence me to accumulate a load that I threw a lot of stuff at it.  (Pots & Pans but don't remember if I high-temped or not).  What surprised me was the timer added 3 minutes the second it began filling for the main wash.  I've never seen that before ever.  But I don't think tea stains should be an issue even if they sit for 4 or 5 days.  But my old Elite, with the way it sensed soil level, it pretty much always defaulted to 140 degree wash rather than 120 because it felt the load was rather dirty and dealt with tea/coffee stains very well.  Similar loads with the new one, won't sense and default to a heavier mode except rarely.  I've only seen it do 3 post-wash rinses on Smart Wash (which is normal on Pots & Pans) once or twice.  It usually does default to 2 post-wash rinses and occasionally that sequence whereby the 1st post-rinse pulses. 

 

[murando531]

I'm glad you mentioned the low-energy after wash rinse. Mine behaved totally different than it usually does the other night; it was a load of not horribly dirty dishes since most was just veggie juice residue and such, but a few plates had spaghetti sauce plastered on. Used Normal as usual with no options, but instead of the usual 2-3 prewashes with purges between, it opened the detergent cup a few minutes in, no drains at all. What struck me odd about it was that I've had less-soiled loads than that - that ended up getting prewashes, which I thought was unnecessary. I was pleased really, because I always loved that the PowerCleans jump straight into the wash on Normal, so the detergent gets a full workout. I'm not sure why it decided only now to do a low water cycle.

Anyway, the first rinse was like you described, it wasn't a purge, because it filled with more water than the normal 5 seconds or so, but it also wasn't a full water charge. The pump would kick on for 20-30 seconds, and had a few seconds of good spray before hearing the pump start cavitating, but it seemed like it was on purpose. It would run for that little period and then sit for 30 seconds, and repeat. It's the first time I've ever noticed it do that. Almost like it was intended as a filter purge that also had a little wash action thrown in.

After that, it filled and finished out normally with the long final rinse. The cycle was a PowerClean Normal cycle exactly; Main Wash - Purge - Final Rinse. I can't imagine it used any more than 3 gallons, if that, but as always everything came out squeaky clean with not a speck in the filter. I'm wondering if that super baked on heavy mega test load forced the sensor to recalibrate, and after that carnage, it decided this load was a walk in the park, haha.

 

[mark_wpduet]

Andrew - question

I was on the WP website today and I noticed something - every last WP dishwasher now has a filter - so if you want the actual WP brand dishwasher, you're gonna get one that has a removable filter....Unless I looked over one, I didn't see one that was self cleaning. Is this true?

Thanks

 

[appnut]

You are correct, they don't' have the clean water wash system/self-cleaning filter.  That feature at present is only in KitchenAid (5 models) and Kenmore Elite (3 models). 

 

[gelaundry4ever]

What if I wanted a whirlpool with a food grinder?

I heard that Maytag is the only whirlpool line with a food grinder as of lately. Correct? I'd like one with a grinder.

 

[murando531]

@mark - Bob is right, as far as the SheerClean/MicroClean self-cleaning system, it is currently only on the KitchenAid and Kenmore systems. Maytag is the only one to have a grinder and accumulator system. However, "manual clean" filters on the Whirlpool machines and the KA/KM's with the removable filter come with a huge asterisk; the filter and pump system is designed in a way that the machine back-flushes and cleans the filter itself by pulling all the accumulated soil out through the drain pump under the cup, which is the only opening dirt can go once caught in the filter. It cleans itself in the same way a Bosch or Miele cleans its filter. When WP first launched this design, the cup didn't have the grooves cut out of the cup that line up with the drain port and allow larger pieces of food to be sucked out, and as far as I can tell from parts photos and diagrams the drain port itself wasn't as big as it is now, which is why I, like many people, was skeptical of it actually working as intended. Now it's safe to say they've worked out the bugs.

 

[mark_wpduet]

Gotcha

I wonder if they will keep the food grinder on the Maytag's? Or eventually make the Maytag's like the WP's?

 

[johnb300m]

Maytag

Now THIS is interesting!
Looks like the Maytag motor certainly is a more heavy duty, possibly "induction type" motor, with capacitor. Just clad in plastic.
Reminiscent of the last GE Quiet motor.
Power for that chopper!
I am now intrigued!

 

[murando531]

The motor does look similar to the one our GE Nautilus had. That machine would have been nearly silent if not for the total lack of any tub insulation whatsoever lol.

I'd love to know more about the differences between these motor types. The motor used in the WP/KA/KM machines is, as far as I know, the same type of magnetic induction motor that is used for drain pumps, whatever that type of motor is called because I can't seem to find anything specifically about the different types and what they're called. But the actual main wash pump is much much bigger than what they use for drain pumps, and it's also wired in such a way that it ONLY rotates in one direction each time, which is why the pump outlet is shaped the way it is. Drain pumps normally chatter back and forth rapidly before gaining momentum in one direction or the other, which is why you can hear that chattering/grunting for a split second or so before it actually starts pushing water out. I was majorly skeptical about it until hearing and seeing the power it has, so evidently, motor size doesn't define how strong a pump it can be. This Whirlpool is a pressure washer especially when forcing that water through 5-6 holes at a time on the lower arm.

I don't know what Maytag will do in the future but they seem to stand behind the disposal blade and accumulator for the time being. Whirlpool seems to use Maytag to play to the nostalgia market, explaining the disposal, all arms running at once, larger motor, etc. They do the same with their washing machines in a way with promises of more robust components and keeping the styling of older Maytag designs, like the center dial. My BravosXL even has the front slant of the Atlantis and original Neptune. My main reason for choosing the BravosXL over the Cabrio or KM Oasis was the physical option to turn off the Spray Rinse that the others didn't have.

I think the downfall of the Maytag design vs its WP/KA/KM siblings is that it barely shaves by on energy regulations, simply because it uses more water and the motor isn't as efficient. If I recall correctly, I think I remember John L. saying that despite them being fairly reliable, the shaded-pole induction motors like GE used are also energy hogs and generate a lot of heat, which is why they have that fan built on. I think if they do anything else to the Maytag in the near future it will be to change the pump system to the MicroClean system in order to keep the "self-cleaning" label intact for buyers looking for it as a feature. I wish WP would just be more transparent about the removable filter design though, because so far it's quite maintenance free.

 

[joeypete]

I really like those Maytags but the professional critics give it awful reviews...in terms of cleaning. After reading consumer reviews, most did like it though some complained about it not cleaning well. It uses more water from what i can tell, but Reviewed.com said it still cleaned awful. I dunno. I've seen them in person and I really liked the stainless blades and interior. The door felt a little flimsy though...

 

[logixx]

I suppose this might have been posted here before, but these are the specs I found for the Whirlpool vs. Maytag wash pumps.