Continued Adventures with the Whirlpool TotalCoverage DW

Automatic Washer - The world's coolest Washing Machines, Dryers and Dishwashers

Help Support :

Honestly -

if the new Maytag's are anything like mine, I can't understand the bad reviews of awful cleaning. It cleans great, is quiet, and everything about it feels very sturdy - racks, inside, door, everything..

the only 2 small complaints I have are the tiered upper rack (which I have learned to live with) and the buttons are hard to push.
 
Yeah I can't fathom it cleaning awful either!

What felt flimsy to me was when the door was closed, pulling it open caused the plastic handle area to flex. Maybe it was just the one at the store but it wasn't very solid up in that area.
 
whirlpool vs maytag wash pump

I believe Whirlpool wants Maytag to be their old school wash system. I have the whirlpool point voyager at my dad's. Maybe maytag is the old school whirlpool due to how big the wash pump is designed. Do the maytag wash pumps still have a fan like the original whirlpool point voyagers do? I noticed that the later ones don't sound as pronounced.
 
My mother in law has the mid line with the front controls. It doesn't feel flimsy at all to me, though I do note that the panel will flex a bit when pulling it. My previous gen was the same though and never had an issue. Maybe it's designed to flex a bit, like the bumper of a car. I'm surprised at how much more solid my Whirlpool feels being a brand new machine. My door doesn't flex a bit when opened or closed, and feels heavier than her Maytag but who knows whether that's slight variances in the spring and cable tension or something.

They seem very happy with it. The thing I'm trying to break them of is rinsing. She's gotten better though, because she called me a few weeks ago to tell me she put a baking dish in the top rack with baked on cheese, and it came out spotlessly. I was like "Yeah? Lol, didn't I tell you it would?"

As far as loading it's identical to the Maytag I had because the racks haven't changed a bit. The only things I'm not a fan of are the stainless steel wash arms. They look gawdy to me; not sure what the narrow in the middle-wide at the ends thing is about. When you see the underside, the actual passage for water is as thin as the Whirlpool low-profile arms, so the rest is molded flat metal. All in all though, they're happy with it. Not an item has emerged unclean and it's extremely quiet, only a smidge louder than my WP, but both are too quiet to hear over a low-volume TV.
 
Whirlpool owns Amana too

I wonder if this uses the Maytag wash system as well?

@ Andrew - Yes, I noticed that after I bought my Maytag in 2015, the wash arms changed in the new ones not long after and I wondered what they changed in the machines compared to my current one. I thought the wash arms looks HUGE too. Mine are much more flat.

I'm debating on getting a waterproof cam like you did and put it in mine because I'm drying to see what it looks like and hopefully the clarity of your vid. But I dunno.

http://amana.com/dishwashers/dishwa..._interior_adb1700adw.pro?searchterm=ADB1700AD
 
I don't know

Andrew said it still uses the old point voyager system, but with improved management. They also made the dispenser a lot better than the older dispensers....probably things like that.
 
I don't think that was me that said that. If I did at some point, it was completely unintentional. The new Maytag design works -similarly- to the Voyager because of the accumulator filter and disposer blade, but it is actually built on the same Tahoe** pump assembly as the Whirlpools and KitchenAids. The difference is the motor they used, and the fact that in the recess where the filter cup and screen plate are on the WP/KA, there's instead a fixed chamber with a screen similar to what was in the center under the arm on the Voyagers except that it now is shaped kind of like a kidney bean. There is also a lack of a diverter valve and motor, but the chamber for it is still there which is why both arms are fed at once. I'm still not entirely sure though how the pump is able to separate the soil particles into the accumulator, but I'm sure there's bound to be some passageway or something. It's hard to tell with parts schematics and pictures.

The next time I'm at my mother in law's I'll try to snap pictures of hers with the arm and filter shroud removed. At that point it's obvious it's a modified WP resource-saver design.

**I'm still not 100% sure what the official design title is. I only stumbled on a stray tech sheet online where it was addressed as "the new resource-saver Tahoe module". After that I looked up parts for the new WPs and on quite a few of the replacement pump assemblies and motors available, TAHOE-ASM was in the part name. Regardless, it's what I'm calling it for now because "resource-saver" and "post-Voyager" are a bit annoying to type and say all the time.
 
Okay, this is the best I can find from pictures online.

1st - Old version Maytag (Voyager) pump assembly

2nd - New version Maytag (Tahoe) pump assembly

3rd - New Whirlpool (Tahoe) pump assembly

Note the arm and tube manifolds on the two Tahoe assemblies, and that the Maytag's accumulator rests in the same area as the removable filters on the WP.

murando531-2016030423042706840_1.jpg

murando531-2016030423042706840_2.jpg

murando531-2016030423042706840_3.jpg
 
Fascinating.
Yea it looks like they put an accumulation chamber right where the removable filter sits.
It's probably fed by a little jet off the main conduit like the Voyager and older GE setup.
They just break off a water stream to filter it, and hope all the water eventually goes through. I'd trust that their 4 blade chopper cuts up soils small enough to fit through the tiny spray jets.
 
Andrew -

Perhaps I got the wording you used incorrect? It was something about how you said the Maytag that I have is still point voyager, but they use better management than the older WP voyagers....something like that. That picture of those pumps - the first one looks exactly like mine.
 
Oh okay!!! I gotcha. Yes, the Maytag you and I have right now IS a true Point Voyager design, the very last year they made in Maytag and KitchenAid machines. The new design, the current ones that launched in the middle of 2014, are the "modified" resource saver machines, which have the new sump assembly design. The "better energy management" part was that in your machine, what allowed them to continue using the Voyager design but meet the tightening efficiency regulations for a smidge longer was that they programmed it to be much more water conscious. That's why these versions of the Voyager were much more aggressive with Automatic Purge Filtrations**, doing its best to avoid having to drain the prewash water and instead progress directly into the main wash. That's why with extra heavily soiled loads, mine would do three APF's before finally deciding the water was too dirty, and draining completely to refill for the main wash. Otherwise with moderately dirty loads, it would do one, maybe two, APF's and then drop the detergent, essentially saving water by only draining away the soil caught in the filter. In older designs, like my granddad's KM Elite Voyager, only one APF will be done, if at all, before it just dumps the prewash water completely.

**I was going to try explaining it, but luckily I had saved the PDF from the technical education manual I found and can no longer pull up online.

murando531++3-6-2016-01-11-24.jpg
 
Maytag dishwasher...

I spoke with my dad about the Maytags and how they have have push buttons that I can feel. I find them easier to access. Anyway, I am relieved to see that Maytag has the quality of the point voyater with the design of the Tahoe global design. I don't know what the name of the pump design is, so I'll call it a hybrid design. I like the fact that the Maytags start the main wash pump after it fills with a bit of water to check for cavitation. I also like that the white ones have stainless steel tubs. I'm thinking it's their EcoConserve dishwashers.
 
It's interesting that I have never even paid attention

to mine while it's running usually. I usually choose autoclean with hi temp/ tough scrub.....but I stopped choosing the modifiers and just started using autoclean alone since you guys said that autoclean will enable those options if it thinks it needs to...I timed it and it took 98 minutes to complete (no heat dry) using just autoclean with no options on a moderately soiled packed load. I do not consider that excessive as far as time to wash a load of dishes.

But this leads me to another question and I think I may already know the answer. With the jetclean steam cycle on my dishwasher, I think it uses 12.8 gallons of water...I was told on the new models the powerblast cycle is the same as my jetclean steam cycle. I'm wondering if a user chooses that cycle on the new models, if it uses that massive amount of water that mine does (for today's standards). I'm thinking it doesn't since these were redesigned to be more efficient.
 
Why?

can't the accumulator screen be something a user can clean once a month or so instead of the machine drawing extra water several times during a cycle to clean it, something  that has nothing to do with actually spraying the dishes?  If this screen is not cleaned does it impact the rest of the current Dw cycle?  

 

I would gladly clean a screen once a month if it would prevent stopping and starting, drawing water and pumping out several times during a cycle.  This on and off and the DW deciding to use extra water to clean a filter throughout one cycle would drive me nuts.  
 
Why can't the accumulator screen be something a user can clean once a month or so?

 

<strong><strong>Jerrod, it's called a manual clean filter.  NO THANK YOU!!  I hate them.  it's a European design.  I am thankful my old Kenmore Elite lasted long enough until a self-cleaning filter technology came out.  I dread having to get down on the floor and pull out a stupid cartridge.  clean it and put it back in place, hopefully properly.  My current new dishwasher only stops once during the prewash to check to see if it needs to drain prewash water or not.  And only once has it not drained prewash water in the almost 5 months I've had it.  It doesn't purge and clean the filter like what is described above.  I don't know how it does it, but it does.  So far, I'm very pleased with cleaning and food soil disposing.  </strong></strong>
 
Wait a minute

I'm confused about something. Aren't the dishwashers now that do NOT have a chopper and have removable filters instead all manual clean filters, that need to be periodically removed and cleaned? But appnut, what you just said is that these are self cleaning?
 
Oh my. Okay, some things need to be majorly clarified...

First off, the definition of Main Wash: the portion of the cycle where the main detergent cup is dispensed up until the point of draining to proceed to a rinse. Most older machines usually had quite short main wash times, but that has nothing to do with the Full Cycle Time of the machine from start to finish. The later models of the PowerClean had a 12 minute Main Wash, followed by a purge, then a 30 minute or so Final Rinse, when set to its Normal Cycle. So Mark, you are right that it's not really enough time to fully heat the water, which is why a lot of older machines did numerous prewashes back to back to keep the tap water entering as hot as possible. The Final Rinse is what causes the steam when you open the door at the end, because it's typically the longest portion of the cycle, and also a thermally held cycle on the timer/control board.

@jerrod6 - I'm not entirely sure what you're asking but I'll do my best to answer from what I understand. Firstly, a dishwasher must have a filtering system, or you'll just be stuck with particles of dirt and food stuck in the tops of cups and on dishes themselves. There are two types of dishwasher filters, ones that separate the soil from the water with centrifugal separator plates on the impeller and send it into an accumulator chamber to be sucked out and sent away when the machine drains, and then ones that have a manually removable filter that all of the water must go through to enter the pump inlet, capturing soil before it can ever be sent through the wash arms altogether.

Now, the majority of machines with an accumulator filter (Whirlpool PowerClean and Voyager, some older GE machines, Hobart KitchenAids, etc.) have blades that pulverize any food it catches, and the separator slings that soil through a passage into the chamber, where it becomes stuck by the filter mesh. This chamber only empties directly into the drain port, so that water cannot back flush the soil into the wash water again. The water jets hidden on the bottom of the lower wash arm constantly spray down against that filter to keep things loose, and also to help sweep the soil down when draining. Most of these machines just hold that captured soil until the drain, where it gets sucked straight out, so there isn't any "starting and stopping and adding water" that it's not already doing to progress from prewash to main wash to rinse, etc. Now, in the case of the more recent Voyagers, the Automatic Filter Purges were a way to reduce the amount of water needed overall for the cycle, by using the prewash water AS the main wash water simply by removing the soil it captured. A Main Wash - Rinse - Rinse sequence uses less water than Prewash - Main Wash - Rinse - Rinse, because if there were any filter purges during that main wash, the water it used to refill that tiny amount of water drained out to clear the filter is still much much less than having to completely drain the prewash water and refill completely for the main wash. So, in response to your question, self-cleaning the filter is very much an important part along with spraying the dishes because that dirt has to go somewhere, as it's not very productive for it to be flying around in the tub with the water.

Second, "manual" filters in well designed machines are actually quite the opposite. In machines like the new Whirlpools, and in machines like Bosch and Miele, the removable filters still clean themselves "automatically" because the drain port is positioned right under where the filter cup locks in. In the same way the accumulator chambers work, the filter cup serves the same purpose, catching food particles and keeping them trapped until the drain pump kicks on. In machines like mine, the drain pump activates while the wash pump is still running, so that the turbulence helps dislodge anything stuck to the mesh. It will then fill with the equivalent of about a cup of water, and pulse the pump on a few seconds at a time to additionally clean anything stuck in the filter. So far, I've not needed to clean my "manual" filter one single time because the machine keeps itself in order just by basic operation of the pump assembly, and still only uses around 3 to 4 gallons for a generally dirty load of dishes.

Also, I'm not sure of the reason ANYONE would want to clean a filter just once a month if they thought the food was caught and kept there the entire time waiting for the user to attend to it. That would be the worst smelling machine on the planet. Not to mention the bacteria being thrown all over your dishes because of month old food soils being kept around. The goal of both designs of dishwasher filter are not to leave any food at the end of the cycle. The advantage to the removable design is that it's much easier to take out the filter if something like a bread tie got dropped in the machine, whereas the advantage to the accumulator design is the capability of having a disposal blade, but with the inconvenience of having to break out the tool box should a nail or piece of glass fall past the sump grate.

Last note, now that there is a new contender on the roster, there's a bit of a hybrid to explain. The machine that Bob has is built on a design called MicroClean that has no disposal blade, but also has a non-removable, self maintaining filter. This is achieved by a new system where the filter itself is actually spinning with the impeller, and a series of baffles in the pump chamber actively lift those soils away from the filter and direct them to a containing chamber, much like the accumulator but without need of dedicated wash jets on the lower arm. Instead, it's directly open to the drain port and, as you'd imagine, soil gets disposed of as soon as the drain pump kicks on. It's practically a hybrid design that plays to the strengths of both platforms.

Last last final thought, more of a personal one, but I don't understand the irk some people get about a dishwasher pausing now and then. I don't believe theres a machine that sounds a foghorn every time it changes action, and that's about the only reason starting and stopping would bother me. Much like my old Maytag Voyager and my current Whirlpool WDT920, most good dishwashers only have periodic pauses for a few seconds at a time for sensing purposes, but they're so quiet that it's barely even noticeable. And I mean, who honestly is sitting right next to the machine every waking moment, criticizing every move it makes in the first place?
 
Not to be ageist....haha, but Andrew, your breadth and mechanical understanding are impressive for someone born in 1991. LOL.
It's a nice little sliver of evidence against the drumbeat of us Millennials being drooling slacks on our phones. :P

What I find fascinating is what you said about what your Whirlpool does to clean its filter.
In addition to the pump suction port being cordoned off to the side, which helps from debris being lodged in the screen at the pump entrance (like my GE), it's interesting to hear it drains while it's still pumping.
My GE never does that. It has filter jets on the spray arm, but it never drains while momentarily still spraying.
It WILL do the pulse drain thing. Which does a decent job.
But I think the extra thought WP put into their machine, really helps their filter cups be as "self cleaning" as possible.
My GE filter cup is "mostly" self cleaning. There will be grit and this weird white scum in there after a few weeks. But it never really builds up more than an intermittent film. Same on my parents' GE.
So in those cases, a good rinse every month or so seems necessary.
It's because of THAT...I think what contributes to some grit sometimes found on glasses in the upper rack if it's a heavy wash.
The machine just isn't removing ALL the soil from the filter system, so it sticks around for the final rinse.
I'm really wishing more and more, that I could merge my GE Profile features with the mechanics of your Whirlpool.
It would be a BEAST.
 
Thanks

@ Andrew -Thanks for that explanation - I did not realize that technology has already created a self cleaning, but removable filter. For example, you took yours out of your machine, so you can remove it. I thought the new Whirlpools, GE's, Lux's that had removable filters were filters that needed to be taken out and cleaned periodically.. I must have totally missed the technology transition.I totally thought all these new machines were just like the Euro machines where the filters needed to be removed and cleaned. Remember how surprised I was that your filter was clean after those loads of dishes? LOL

@ Appnut - since you have had your machine, have you EVER taken the filter out to inspect it? I know you said you HATED manual clean filters and didn't want to chance not getting them placed back in correctly, so I'm thinking you have never touched it based on that.....but you might have taken it out at least once to look at it?
 
European DW

Well, 'we' invented this design of self flushing filters.
You can clean the filters, and on some models, you have to, on others, you don't or verry periodicly. Best filter designs I know are Bosch (or Siemens, Neff etc.) and Miele.
But usually, you are only left with the big, undissolved bits and a fine, greyish mixture in case you run lower temp cycles.

One question though: As far as I noticed, no WP motor design does actually change its speed for different cycles/cycle steps, or do they?
I know that Bosch, Miele, LG and ELux do depending on model, and that Maytags certanly don't, but what about KA or actually the verry TOL WP?
 
"Euro machines where the filters needed to be removed and cleaned"

Euro machines have had self-cleaning filters for... uhm... I don't know how many decades. I think a common misconception here is that dishwasher filters work like dryer lint filters.

I can't speak for other brands, but BSH dishwashers here quickly change between draining and circulation during the drain cycle which causes water to surge around the filter and wash it.
 
Mark, my filter is not accessible.  It's buried underneath the plastic housing of the mechanism--it looks like your Maytag.  It doesn't look all that much different than my preivoui9s Kenmore Elite or your Whirlpool. 
 
If I'm not mistaken Bob and Mark, on your machine Bob, isn't there just a little grate that can be popped out with a lock tab? I'm not sure how much further you can dig down though. I assume they have that removable grate piece just in case something slipped down under.

Speaking of your machine Bob, we were in Sears the other day just exploring, and I noticed on the KM Elites with the motorized arm and CleanWater/MicroClean system, there is now a little metal cylinder type thing sticking up beside the sump grate. I'm assuming it's a temp sensor but I've never seen one so large in newer dishwasher. Does yours have anything like that?
 
Back
Top