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Why can't the accumulator screen be something a user can clean once a month or so?

 

<strong><strong>Jerrod, it's called a manual clean filter.  NO THANK YOU!!  I hate them.  it's a European design.  I am thankful my old Kenmore Elite lasted long enough until a self-cleaning filter technology came out.  I dread having to get down on the floor and pull out a stupid cartridge.  clean it and put it back in place, hopefully properly.  My current new dishwasher only stops once during the prewash to check to see if it needs to drain prewash water or not.  And only once has it not drained prewash water in the almost 5 months I've had it.  It doesn't purge and clean the filter like what is described above.  I don't know how it does it, but it does.  So far, I'm very pleased with cleaning and food soil disposing.  </strong></strong>
 
Wait a minute

I'm confused about something. Aren't the dishwashers now that do NOT have a chopper and have removable filters instead all manual clean filters, that need to be periodically removed and cleaned? But appnut, what you just said is that these are self cleaning?
 
Oh my. Okay, some things need to be majorly clarified...

First off, the definition of Main Wash: the portion of the cycle where the main detergent cup is dispensed up until the point of draining to proceed to a rinse. Most older machines usually had quite short main wash times, but that has nothing to do with the Full Cycle Time of the machine from start to finish. The later models of the PowerClean had a 12 minute Main Wash, followed by a purge, then a 30 minute or so Final Rinse, when set to its Normal Cycle. So Mark, you are right that it's not really enough time to fully heat the water, which is why a lot of older machines did numerous prewashes back to back to keep the tap water entering as hot as possible. The Final Rinse is what causes the steam when you open the door at the end, because it's typically the longest portion of the cycle, and also a thermally held cycle on the timer/control board.

@jerrod6 - I'm not entirely sure what you're asking but I'll do my best to answer from what I understand. Firstly, a dishwasher must have a filtering system, or you'll just be stuck with particles of dirt and food stuck in the tops of cups and on dishes themselves. There are two types of dishwasher filters, ones that separate the soil from the water with centrifugal separator plates on the impeller and send it into an accumulator chamber to be sucked out and sent away when the machine drains, and then ones that have a manually removable filter that all of the water must go through to enter the pump inlet, capturing soil before it can ever be sent through the wash arms altogether.

Now, the majority of machines with an accumulator filter (Whirlpool PowerClean and Voyager, some older GE machines, Hobart KitchenAids, etc.) have blades that pulverize any food it catches, and the separator slings that soil through a passage into the chamber, where it becomes stuck by the filter mesh. This chamber only empties directly into the drain port, so that water cannot back flush the soil into the wash water again. The water jets hidden on the bottom of the lower wash arm constantly spray down against that filter to keep things loose, and also to help sweep the soil down when draining. Most of these machines just hold that captured soil until the drain, where it gets sucked straight out, so there isn't any "starting and stopping and adding water" that it's not already doing to progress from prewash to main wash to rinse, etc. Now, in the case of the more recent Voyagers, the Automatic Filter Purges were a way to reduce the amount of water needed overall for the cycle, by using the prewash water AS the main wash water simply by removing the soil it captured. A Main Wash - Rinse - Rinse sequence uses less water than Prewash - Main Wash - Rinse - Rinse, because if there were any filter purges during that main wash, the water it used to refill that tiny amount of water drained out to clear the filter is still much much less than having to completely drain the prewash water and refill completely for the main wash. So, in response to your question, self-cleaning the filter is very much an important part along with spraying the dishes because that dirt has to go somewhere, as it's not very productive for it to be flying around in the tub with the water.

Second, "manual" filters in well designed machines are actually quite the opposite. In machines like the new Whirlpools, and in machines like Bosch and Miele, the removable filters still clean themselves "automatically" because the drain port is positioned right under where the filter cup locks in. In the same way the accumulator chambers work, the filter cup serves the same purpose, catching food particles and keeping them trapped until the drain pump kicks on. In machines like mine, the drain pump activates while the wash pump is still running, so that the turbulence helps dislodge anything stuck to the mesh. It will then fill with the equivalent of about a cup of water, and pulse the pump on a few seconds at a time to additionally clean anything stuck in the filter. So far, I've not needed to clean my "manual" filter one single time because the machine keeps itself in order just by basic operation of the pump assembly, and still only uses around 3 to 4 gallons for a generally dirty load of dishes.

Also, I'm not sure of the reason ANYONE would want to clean a filter just once a month if they thought the food was caught and kept there the entire time waiting for the user to attend to it. That would be the worst smelling machine on the planet. Not to mention the bacteria being thrown all over your dishes because of month old food soils being kept around. The goal of both designs of dishwasher filter are not to leave any food at the end of the cycle. The advantage to the removable design is that it's much easier to take out the filter if something like a bread tie got dropped in the machine, whereas the advantage to the accumulator design is the capability of having a disposal blade, but with the inconvenience of having to break out the tool box should a nail or piece of glass fall past the sump grate.

Last note, now that there is a new contender on the roster, there's a bit of a hybrid to explain. The machine that Bob has is built on a design called MicroClean that has no disposal blade, but also has a non-removable, self maintaining filter. This is achieved by a new system where the filter itself is actually spinning with the impeller, and a series of baffles in the pump chamber actively lift those soils away from the filter and direct them to a containing chamber, much like the accumulator but without need of dedicated wash jets on the lower arm. Instead, it's directly open to the drain port and, as you'd imagine, soil gets disposed of as soon as the drain pump kicks on. It's practically a hybrid design that plays to the strengths of both platforms.

Last last final thought, more of a personal one, but I don't understand the irk some people get about a dishwasher pausing now and then. I don't believe theres a machine that sounds a foghorn every time it changes action, and that's about the only reason starting and stopping would bother me. Much like my old Maytag Voyager and my current Whirlpool WDT920, most good dishwashers only have periodic pauses for a few seconds at a time for sensing purposes, but they're so quiet that it's barely even noticeable. And I mean, who honestly is sitting right next to the machine every waking moment, criticizing every move it makes in the first place?
 
Not to be ageist....haha, but Andrew, your breadth and mechanical understanding are impressive for someone born in 1991. LOL.
It's a nice little sliver of evidence against the drumbeat of us Millennials being drooling slacks on our phones. :P

What I find fascinating is what you said about what your Whirlpool does to clean its filter.
In addition to the pump suction port being cordoned off to the side, which helps from debris being lodged in the screen at the pump entrance (like my GE), it's interesting to hear it drains while it's still pumping.
My GE never does that. It has filter jets on the spray arm, but it never drains while momentarily still spraying.
It WILL do the pulse drain thing. Which does a decent job.
But I think the extra thought WP put into their machine, really helps their filter cups be as "self cleaning" as possible.
My GE filter cup is "mostly" self cleaning. There will be grit and this weird white scum in there after a few weeks. But it never really builds up more than an intermittent film. Same on my parents' GE.
So in those cases, a good rinse every month or so seems necessary.
It's because of THAT...I think what contributes to some grit sometimes found on glasses in the upper rack if it's a heavy wash.
The machine just isn't removing ALL the soil from the filter system, so it sticks around for the final rinse.
I'm really wishing more and more, that I could merge my GE Profile features with the mechanics of your Whirlpool.
It would be a BEAST.
 
Thanks

@ Andrew -Thanks for that explanation - I did not realize that technology has already created a self cleaning, but removable filter. For example, you took yours out of your machine, so you can remove it. I thought the new Whirlpools, GE's, Lux's that had removable filters were filters that needed to be taken out and cleaned periodically.. I must have totally missed the technology transition.I totally thought all these new machines were just like the Euro machines where the filters needed to be removed and cleaned. Remember how surprised I was that your filter was clean after those loads of dishes? LOL

@ Appnut - since you have had your machine, have you EVER taken the filter out to inspect it? I know you said you HATED manual clean filters and didn't want to chance not getting them placed back in correctly, so I'm thinking you have never touched it based on that.....but you might have taken it out at least once to look at it?
 
European DW

Well, 'we' invented this design of self flushing filters.
You can clean the filters, and on some models, you have to, on others, you don't or verry periodicly. Best filter designs I know are Bosch (or Siemens, Neff etc.) and Miele.
But usually, you are only left with the big, undissolved bits and a fine, greyish mixture in case you run lower temp cycles.

One question though: As far as I noticed, no WP motor design does actually change its speed for different cycles/cycle steps, or do they?
I know that Bosch, Miele, LG and ELux do depending on model, and that Maytags certanly don't, but what about KA or actually the verry TOL WP?
 
"Euro machines where the filters needed to be removed and cleaned"

Euro machines have had self-cleaning filters for... uhm... I don't know how many decades. I think a common misconception here is that dishwasher filters work like dryer lint filters.

I can't speak for other brands, but BSH dishwashers here quickly change between draining and circulation during the drain cycle which causes water to surge around the filter and wash it.
 
Mark, my filter is not accessible.  It's buried underneath the plastic housing of the mechanism--it looks like your Maytag.  It doesn't look all that much different than my preivoui9s Kenmore Elite or your Whirlpool. 
 
If I'm not mistaken Bob and Mark, on your machine Bob, isn't there just a little grate that can be popped out with a lock tab? I'm not sure how much further you can dig down though. I assume they have that removable grate piece just in case something slipped down under.

Speaking of your machine Bob, we were in Sears the other day just exploring, and I noticed on the KM Elites with the motorized arm and CleanWater/MicroClean system, there is now a little metal cylinder type thing sticking up beside the sump grate. I'm assuming it's a temp sensor but I've never seen one so large in newer dishwasher. Does yours have anything like that?
 
A small website/marketing update for my machine....

The dishwasher itself hasn't changed..yet, but there are now updated video demos for it with a different voice actor and new transitions. Maybe that means I'm safe in having a brand new, current dishwasher for a little while longer! :)

What I did find interesting is that now the demos are calling it the "WashRight" system, with the TotalCoverage Spray Arm. In the previous videos and marketing material, they never really gave the machine design itself a name. I wonder if they've now finally given the design a true marketing codename to differentiate it from the Point Voyager and PowerClean before it. I have to say, it doesn't have quite the ring to it like it's predecessors, but at least if it is now the name of the "resource saver/Tahoe/HE" design, it can avoid confusion from now on.

Updates with my machine: Still absolutely LOVE IT! I've been deliberately avoiding removing the filter for the past few weeks and making sure every load was filthy and had been left for a couple of days to get dried/stuck on while waiting for full loads. I checked it tonight, and save for a few specks around the screen, the filter is still basically clean enough to eat off of, not that I would personally haha. All I've had over the past month's worth of cycles was a lonely little green pea, just big enough that it wouldn't fit through the filter cup grate. After a couple of cycles though, it disappeared

One thing I've found interesting...it definitely has a much more advanced "brain" than its predecessors. Almost every load performs differently. Here lately, if the soils on the dishes were more liquid based like cheeses and sauces, rather than bits and pieces of food, it has begun starting with the prewash, and then deciding to just go ahead and drop the detergent, and the main wash ends up being about an hour, then a sort of hybrid purge where it fills with just enough water to spray slightly and then gasp, pulsing that for a couple of minutes, then drains, and proceeds with the final thermally held rinse. I'm guessing the sensor has been actively changing thresholds and tries to be more and more conservative if at all possible; the first few weeks of having the machine would always sequence with Prewash-pw-pw-main wash-rinse-rinse-rinse, on Normal, Heavy, and Sensor cycles. Reminded me of our GE Nautilus that we had that I despised, except still using less water than the GE could and having very clean results, something the Nautilus could rarely do on its own.

Overall, I'm ecstatically pleased with the machine. It's very easily a machine that I would choose to repair should a component fail over the next 10-15 years, rather than replace. I can't see it becoming obsolete anytime soon.
 
WOW! Three years developing.
Though I'm not surprised. Engineering that stuff takes a long time and a lot of testing. Kudos for management for letting them take all that time to get it right!
Takes an entire year to develop one screwdriver or two full years to develop a smoke alarm!
And we're often not given enough time.
I hope all the "modern" naysayers paid attention to that video to see that they tested this shit to go 10 years!

Your WP must be more advanced than my GE's brain. Because it's a cycle sequences of pretty much stayed the same unless soils are definitely heavy or definitely on the light side.
They definitely got the self-cleaning feature on your filter system absolutely right. Kudos to WP!
I get more n more jealous the more I see you post about your machine LOL.
 
Cool!

I think the thing I worry about MOST of things to go wrong is the control panel - although I've never had this happen (knock on wood). But after 9.2 years, the motor went, not the control panel, on my 2005 Point Voyager and the control panel always stayed warm to the touch, ALL THE TIME, but it never failed. I never knew if that was normal or not. This new Maytag's control panel does not stay warm. I wonder if they test the longevity for ten years, if this includes the control boards and not the actual washing components of the machine?
 
Grody prewash water!!!! I've only opened it once or twice during an actual full load of dishes, so I was curious to see just how murky the water would be after a few minutes from the cycle start with a full and heavily soiled load. Nasty. That floating stuff is "cauliflower couscous" left in the processor container and on some of the plates. It still amazes me how little water it uses per fill, compared to the Voyager, since they use the same tub design. The Voyager water level would be up to the edge of the door.

murando531++4-20-2016-12-22-48.jpg
 
Yucky poo-poo! Hahaha

My Frigidaire filled to about the same level too and cleaned beautifully. It amazes me at times how well things can clean without a ton of water! :)
 
The flow-path optimization must be incredible as well as minimizing as much head loss as possible. WOW. Especially for the long travel to the upper rack!
And to get the pressure we've seen this thing throw out from such little volume.
Engineering marvel. :)

Plus, it must be crazy to compensate for the variable of water return to the sump in order to maintain pressure, with mixed loads, all plate loads, pots and pans, upper rack, etc. As they'll all vary the amount of water "suspended" out of the sump during a cycle.

#nerdthings :D
 
Looking closely at how everything is designed on the inside, I'm really impressed with how well sealed the tubing and connection points are at the arms and the port on the back wall. I've gotten the camera positioned to watch at the back and at the upper arm manifold, and very little, if at all, water escapes or can be seen spurting out. The manifold that connects to the ports at the back has a huge rubber lining around all the plastic, along with the check valves that close the ports not being used when the rack is in either position.

Another thing I find really cool is the way it fills. The brochures talk of a "Dynamic Fill System", but I really didn't think much on it until noticing that the fill times are always different. If there are a lot of containers with concave bottoms, it will seem to fill forever compared to filling with nothing in it. I've also heard it randomly add water in the middle of a wash portion, sometimes prewash, sometimes halfway into the main wash, sometimes in the final rinse. I'm assuming the optical sensor is constantly monitoring for air to be pulled towards the pumps inlet port.

And you're right, I still find myself skeptical of the tiny pump, so now and then I have to go watch the videos I took just to reassure myself hahaha!

If I had one thing I could change about this machine, it would be to have that larger variable speed motor they use in the KitchenAid. I was thinking the other day about how it would be nice now and again to use a 1-Hour Wash cycle where it filled with more water and unleashed full power to all the arms at once, just to have that "option" of something like an old school PowerClean. But regardless, I'm madly in love with this baby. And besides, if I'm really craving the sound of that tornado of water, I do have my own PowerClean hiding out in the guest room closet! Lol

Look how CUTE SHE IS!

murando531++4-21-2016-13-02-22.jpg
 

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