How much cost does the suspension system in a FL wash add to the purchase price?
Cost of Suspension
- Thread starter Chetlaham
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Quite a lot I shouldn't wonder. It is one reason h-axis washing machines cost more than top loaders with a central beater.
At basic level if you left out extraction (as all early h-axis washers did), money goes into making them water tight, etc.... But designing various suspension systems and putting them to use cost money.
Remember Bendix tied up the market for years due to their patents for h-axis washing machines. If anyone else wanted to design such a machine they either had to pay money to Bendix to license their patents, or work out some other new way themselves.
You have cheaper suspension systems with just four springs, concrete weight on top of tub, and two shocks. Or, there's Miele's famous cast iron cradle (instead of concrete), shocks, springs, etc...
Asko like many commercial machines with with four shocks instead of two, etc...
In any event you want something robust because suspension system must withstand the not small amount of forces generated by 11, 20, 50, 60, 100, or whatever pounds of sopping wet (cotton) wash.
This being said modern computer controls of motor and tub movements have allowed at least for domestic washing machines a bit more leeway in "robust" suspensions.
My older Miele needed all that cast iron heft to help contain tub movements. Even so when Big Bertha starts spinning with an unbalanced load, whoaa Nellie!
At basic level if you left out extraction (as all early h-axis washers did), money goes into making them water tight, etc.... But designing various suspension systems and putting them to use cost money.
Remember Bendix tied up the market for years due to their patents for h-axis washing machines. If anyone else wanted to design such a machine they either had to pay money to Bendix to license their patents, or work out some other new way themselves.
You have cheaper suspension systems with just four springs, concrete weight on top of tub, and two shocks. Or, there's Miele's famous cast iron cradle (instead of concrete), shocks, springs, etc...
Asko like many commercial machines with with four shocks instead of two, etc...
In any event you want something robust because suspension system must withstand the not small amount of forces generated by 11, 20, 50, 60, 100, or whatever pounds of sopping wet (cotton) wash.
This being said modern computer controls of motor and tub movements have allowed at least for domestic washing machines a bit more leeway in "robust" suspensions.
My older Miele needed all that cast iron heft to help contain tub movements. Even so when Big Bertha starts spinning with an unbalanced load, whoaa Nellie!
Are sopping wet clothes that much of a force? I ask because it seems like the Niagra washer in the other thread can tumble full size comforters in a light weight plastic frame. I'm thinking if this concept was applied to a full size machine cost would be 1/3 of a duet.
It adds A LOT MORE.
1) the suspension cost itself.
2) the shipping cost (volume)
3) the shipping cost (weight)
The Niagara IS a full size washer, but average 3x smaller than a whirlpool direct drive washer. (Volume)
There's also the weight factor. The Niagara concept is a washer that can be stored in a closet when not in use and EASILY moved in front of the bathroom/kitchen sink. How can we make that possible with a washer that weights 200lbs? Can you imagine an elderly lady with a walker moving a whirlpool duet by herself?
Then shipping.... 100% of Niagara are shipped using FedEx, UPS, etc. They have weight thresholds. Up to a certain weight/volume the price is X. Above that, the price skyrocket.
I have to work really hard to keep weight and volume as low as possible, otherwise we will end up with a Niagara that costs more than a Miele. Who would buy it?
1) the suspension cost itself.
2) the shipping cost (volume)
3) the shipping cost (weight)
The Niagara IS a full size washer, but average 3x smaller than a whirlpool direct drive washer. (Volume)
There's also the weight factor. The Niagara concept is a washer that can be stored in a closet when not in use and EASILY moved in front of the bathroom/kitchen sink. How can we make that possible with a washer that weights 200lbs? Can you imagine an elderly lady with a walker moving a whirlpool duet by herself?
Then shipping.... 100% of Niagara are shipped using FedEx, UPS, etc. They have weight thresholds. Up to a certain weight/volume the price is X. Above that, the price skyrocket.
I have to work really hard to keep weight and volume as low as possible, otherwise we will end up with a Niagara that costs more than a Miele. Who would buy it?
vacerator
Well-known member
They need
a suspension to damper shaking and vibration. Especially on a wooden main floor laundry room over a basement or crawl space. Even with, many require large friction pads to curtail walking. The exepction may be when a dryer is stacked above the washer.
a suspension to damper shaking and vibration. Especially on a wooden main floor laundry room over a basement or crawl space. Even with, many require large friction pads to curtail walking. The exepction may be when a dryer is stacked above the washer.
If the niagra is a full size washer, just imagine a full size washer frame that was like a Niagra. Capacity would be amazing.
Without a suspension system H-axis machines that wash and extract must be bolted into several feet of concrete. This was one reason why early Bendix front loaders were a hard sell. Not everyone could or would do this so sales weren't what they might have been.
Again when Bendix did come up with a suspension system it locked what would be best bits down in patents. So anyone else either had to pay or come up with their own idea that worked.
There is no free lunch with physics. Forces generated by a H-axis washer when extracting even at low rpms is quite considerable, and they must go somewhere.
If machine is bolted into concrete (no suspension system) all those forces are sent down though machine into floor to be dissipated through building.
This still happens with a suspension system, but forces are lessened. Commercial and industrial washing machines for years now above a certain weight capacity have suspension systems. This and or it is preferred to bolt down because forces generated by several hundred pounds of wet wash being extracted puts substantial forces into a building, and not all are able to handle. Sometimes even several floors above you can still feel things vibrating.
Again when Bendix did come up with a suspension system it locked what would be best bits down in patents. So anyone else either had to pay or come up with their own idea that worked.
There is no free lunch with physics. Forces generated by a H-axis washer when extracting even at low rpms is quite considerable, and they must go somewhere.
If machine is bolted into concrete (no suspension system) all those forces are sent down though machine into floor to be dissipated through building.
This still happens with a suspension system, but forces are lessened. Commercial and industrial washing machines for years now above a certain weight capacity have suspension systems. This and or it is preferred to bolt down because forces generated by several hundred pounds of wet wash being extracted puts substantial forces into a building, and not all are able to handle. Sometimes even several floors above you can still feel things vibrating.
@chetlaham
Actually we have a prototype ready. That was put in the freezer because of several business factors. Basically it wasn't the time for that because suddenly the market changed from water to wine with the pandemic. I completed the project (Revvinkevin even tried the prototype), and then everything was put in a Tupperware and stored in the freezer. Someday we'll release it. Even some molds were already made.
The washer dimensions are just like a whirlpool DD (27 inches) and it had a 36 lb capacity. I made some minor adjustments to the design and it went to 42lb capacity.
The concept is: a badass washer (actually the codename is "Badass") with automatic fill and automatic rinses, but no spin cycle.
To understand it better, imagine a whirlpool DD without the drum and the cabinet being the tub and of course also much deeper because there's no transmission (just a "pancake" motor on the bottom)... look the huge space you'd have for the clothes.
If I added an ineffective 300 rpm spin cycle to the Niagara and keeping the same dimensions, it would probably end up with a silly 4 or 6 lb capacity, absurdly heavy because of the ballast concrete blocks and costing almost the same as a TOL LG washer.
Actually we have a prototype ready. That was put in the freezer because of several business factors. Basically it wasn't the time for that because suddenly the market changed from water to wine with the pandemic. I completed the project (Revvinkevin even tried the prototype), and then everything was put in a Tupperware and stored in the freezer. Someday we'll release it. Even some molds were already made.
The washer dimensions are just like a whirlpool DD (27 inches) and it had a 36 lb capacity. I made some minor adjustments to the design and it went to 42lb capacity.
The concept is: a badass washer (actually the codename is "Badass") with automatic fill and automatic rinses, but no spin cycle.
To understand it better, imagine a whirlpool DD without the drum and the cabinet being the tub and of course also much deeper because there's no transmission (just a "pancake" motor on the bottom)... look the huge space you'd have for the clothes.
If I added an ineffective 300 rpm spin cycle to the Niagara and keeping the same dimensions, it would probably end up with a silly 4 or 6 lb capacity, absurdly heavy because of the ballast concrete blocks and costing almost the same as a TOL LG washer.
Machine dynamics
I'm having my machine dynamics exam next tuesday, and oh boy, yeah, suspension systems are a thing...
Once you go into having a spin at all, there is not much point in making it much slower.
Forces on the floor are basically just dependend on the spring stiffness, they can't be to stiff otherwise the machine starts to walk or has to be heavier in return.
But they have to be stiff enough to reduce sagging of the drum.
Then the dampers have to be tuned to reduce the swing in the drum.
But that is dependent on how much the unbalance is allowed to be.
Either you activley monitor that - which requires quite sophisticated algorhytms - or you don't which requires a lot of mass and space.
Next the whole thing has a certain rpm at which the deflection of the tub will be largest.
You usually try to tune that to a certain speed at a relativley low spped.
For washer tubs, that maximum deflection is often at around the 200-300rpm mark.
Getting that much lower is hard and much above that usually not much use.
Once you run above that speed, the suspension really has a small impact.
So you really have a suspension to get your system through that small rpm region, and above that it*s more of a matter of material strength (which belive it or not is actually not that expensive to do; just choose 3mm instead of 2mm metal for example).
One big reason many industrial appliances still use not suspension is that if you just throw space and weight at the problem, you can get pretty cheap and durable designs spinning at decent speed.
On the other hand, space is the easiest way to make a good suspension; that is why very large load washers on the industrial side can spin quite a lot of loads without much fuzz.
I'm having my machine dynamics exam next tuesday, and oh boy, yeah, suspension systems are a thing...
Once you go into having a spin at all, there is not much point in making it much slower.
Forces on the floor are basically just dependend on the spring stiffness, they can't be to stiff otherwise the machine starts to walk or has to be heavier in return.
But they have to be stiff enough to reduce sagging of the drum.
Then the dampers have to be tuned to reduce the swing in the drum.
But that is dependent on how much the unbalance is allowed to be.
Either you activley monitor that - which requires quite sophisticated algorhytms - or you don't which requires a lot of mass and space.
Next the whole thing has a certain rpm at which the deflection of the tub will be largest.
You usually try to tune that to a certain speed at a relativley low spped.
For washer tubs, that maximum deflection is often at around the 200-300rpm mark.
Getting that much lower is hard and much above that usually not much use.
Once you run above that speed, the suspension really has a small impact.
So you really have a suspension to get your system through that small rpm region, and above that it*s more of a matter of material strength (which belive it or not is actually not that expensive to do; just choose 3mm instead of 2mm metal for example).
One big reason many industrial appliances still use not suspension is that if you just throw space and weight at the problem, you can get pretty cheap and durable designs spinning at decent speed.
On the other hand, space is the easiest way to make a good suspension; that is why very large load washers on the industrial side can spin quite a lot of loads without much fuzz.
Eudora gets away with having no suspension, but I guess that would work mainly on such compacts. I don't see this working on a machine like the Niagara, but who knows. The pendulum senses when the machine is too much off balance and ends the spin immediately. It will try over and over until it spins with a good balance.
There is no suspension per se, but the cabinet is allowed to swing with the rest.
Weigth of the machine and the rigidity of the machine are what act as dampers/springs.
Weigth of the machine and the rigidity of the machine are what act as dampers/springs.
Bad Arse Washer
This is exactly what I have in mind. 27 inches, cheap, and like the niagra.
I have three versions in mind:
1) A top loading no spin impeller machine with a filter flo sized out tub. Just an outer tub like you mention, grate at the bottom to drain the water out and a line frequency motor driven impellar.
2) A 27 inch stabber like machine with the same top loading concept as the niagra. Front serviceable internals.
3) A 27 inch front load washer economized for price.
I think 2 and 3 will work and clean better relying on gravity. Front serviceable on #2 because I have combo 52 and Lorain Furniture in mind.
If you have the liberty can you share more info on this concept washer? Or Email me the what you can share?
I really like that I'm hearing so far.
This is exactly what I have in mind. 27 inches, cheap, and like the niagra.
I have three versions in mind:
1) A top loading no spin impeller machine with a filter flo sized out tub. Just an outer tub like you mention, grate at the bottom to drain the water out and a line frequency motor driven impellar.
2) A 27 inch stabber like machine with the same top loading concept as the niagra. Front serviceable internals.
3) A 27 inch front load washer economized for price.
I think 2 and 3 will work and clean better relying on gravity. Front serviceable on #2 because I have combo 52 and Lorain Furniture in mind.
If you have the liberty can you share more info on this concept washer? Or Email me the what you can share?
I really like that I'm hearing so far.
Reply # 9
Hi Louis that's a pretty fun machine I am sure us guys would to play with one at a wash-in, but it is very crude and the makers did not even save that much money building it.
They basally just saved a set of shocks and 2 springs and a rubber door boot and ended up with a crude machine that will shake itself apart in less than ten years, however it does show what can be built without sophisticated engineering but I can only imagine the complaints users would have about noise and vibration let along poor water extraction but I am sure that few people that use this machine would not have a clothes dryer anyway,
Thanks for posting this, John
Hi Louis that's a pretty fun machine I am sure us guys would to play with one at a wash-in, but it is very crude and the makers did not even save that much money building it.
They basally just saved a set of shocks and 2 springs and a rubber door boot and ended up with a crude machine that will shake itself apart in less than ten years, however it does show what can be built without sophisticated engineering but I can only imagine the complaints users would have about noise and vibration let along poor water extraction but I am sure that few people that use this machine would not have a clothes dryer anyway,
Thanks for posting this, John
@foraloysius
In-genius! This is how washers should make an attempt to balance loads, not electronics.
Do you have a single line diagram to this machine? I see stunning electrical simplicity, yet excellent spin dynamics.
In-genius! This is how washers should make an attempt to balance loads, not electronics.
Do you have a single line diagram to this machine? I see stunning electrical simplicity, yet excellent spin dynamics.
These are still sold.
https://www.eudora-qualitaet-ein-leben-lang.at/produkte-haushalt/waschmaschinen-3kg/
They seem to hold up very good, there are still a lot of those older ones around. I guess it's the quality of the materials that let them last so long. They are European compact models, so smaller than regular European washers. Extraction is pretty good with a top spin speed on the new models up to 1100 rpm. The capacity is only 3kg (about 7 lbs) so there is a limit to the practical use. I recently came across one in a picture of a house boat with limited laundry space.
https://www.eudora-qualitaet-ein-leben-lang.at/produkte-haushalt/waschmaschinen-3kg/
They seem to hold up very good, there are still a lot of those older ones around. I guess it's the quality of the materials that let them last so long. They are European compact models, so smaller than regular European washers. Extraction is pretty good with a top spin speed on the new models up to 1100 rpm. The capacity is only 3kg (about 7 lbs) so there is a limit to the practical use. I recently came across one in a picture of a house boat with limited laundry space.
Here's a Google Translate page in English of that website.
https://translate.google.com/transl...lang.at/produkte-haushalt/waschmaschinen-3kg/
https://translate.google.com/transl...lang.at/produkte-haushalt/waschmaschinen-3kg/
Not bad, good design and I like it. I'll start a new thread on the boil washer concept, which I like.
