Crony Baloney: Department of Energy Direct Final Rule on Appliance Efficiency Standards
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dj-gabriele
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I just read the 60 pages rule, it refers to heating and cooling apparatus and I don't feel that's a bad thing as the article describes it, I would have proposed something even more restrictive indeed!
As a single example I take the lowest allowed EER of 12,2 in units less than 45000 btu, in more standard units that would be just a little less than 3,6 kWt/kWe. That's not restrictive at all, even the cheapest Chinese heat pump reach that efficiency nowadays! I would have pushed at least something around 4 for cooling and 4,5 for heating!
As a single example I take the lowest allowed EER of 12,2 in units less than 45000 btu, in more standard units that would be just a little less than 3,6 kWt/kWe. That's not restrictive at all, even the cheapest Chinese heat pump reach that efficiency nowadays! I would have pushed at least something around 4 for cooling and 4,5 for heating!
I think its time all of this "baloney" on energy and water standards be SCRAPPED!let the BUYER and MARKETPLACE decide.Its costing customers too much money and providing high cost machines that try to wash clothes and dishes in only TEASPOONS of water.And some of this equipment may be wasting energy in other ways-like longer cycles.-and possible damage to clothes.
arbilab
Well-known member
Yes. The regulations are at the most looking at the cost of water and electric, NOT the cost of destroying clothes. This is typical of a bureaucracy, to only look at what it regulates and never the big picture of what it ends up costing constituents. This is why the only answer to government is the biggest bomb you could imagine. At this point government cannot be salvaged and explosives are the only answer.
You know how I mean that, that there is NO practical solution to government and that's why I resort to explosives but only figuratively.
BTW, speaking of government, just the fact I wrote the word 'bomb' and you read it, made a red light switch on at national security headquarters somewhere in Virginia and now we're all in their database.
You know how I mean that, that there is NO practical solution to government and that's why I resort to explosives but only figuratively.
BTW, speaking of government, just the fact I wrote the word 'bomb' and you read it, made a red light switch on at national security headquarters somewhere in Virginia and now we're all in their database.
IMHO, its a perfect time to clean up so many blighted empty eyesores, folks that can afford it should be able to purchase a property as a tear down with a property tax amnesty. It would get rid of empty vandalized homes that bring crime and are by far no where close to being energy efficient. It would also help the real estate market recover. HVAC & waterheaters are the real energy hogs with refrigerators and freezer's coming in second. Then all the "phantom" energy we use for idling computers, cable boxes, etc. alr
sudsmaster
Well-known member
Try actually reading the regulations
The final regulations have NOTHING to do with home appliances as most of us know them.
They deal strictly with residential HVAC: gas, oil, electric furnaces, and residential central air conditioning. There is zero mention of washing machines, clothes dryers, cooking appliances, etc.
And, as far as the final standards go, they seem rather reasonable. If you live outside the northern tier of states (as we do in California) a gas furnace in a non weatherized home has to be 80% efficient. This is more or less the norm for new conventionally vented gas furnaces already, so it's not much of a change. In the northern tier of states, if you weatherize your home (not sure though what that standard requires) then you can use pretty much the same 80% gas furnace.
The final direct standards for central air conditioning also seem to be within the average EER capability of new central A/C units, even in the Southeast.
I was also pleased to see the standards for standby power consumption of the various heating/cooling units: about 10 watts max. This makes a LOT of sense, as standby "vampire" electricity consumption has been a big energy waster in the past.
Anyway, yes, there are most likely things to complain about with regard to energy standards for home appliances, but the regulation here that we are talking about has nothing to do with that.
The final regulations have NOTHING to do with home appliances as most of us know them.
They deal strictly with residential HVAC: gas, oil, electric furnaces, and residential central air conditioning. There is zero mention of washing machines, clothes dryers, cooking appliances, etc.
And, as far as the final standards go, they seem rather reasonable. If you live outside the northern tier of states (as we do in California) a gas furnace in a non weatherized home has to be 80% efficient. This is more or less the norm for new conventionally vented gas furnaces already, so it's not much of a change. In the northern tier of states, if you weatherize your home (not sure though what that standard requires) then you can use pretty much the same 80% gas furnace.
The final direct standards for central air conditioning also seem to be within the average EER capability of new central A/C units, even in the Southeast.
I was also pleased to see the standards for standby power consumption of the various heating/cooling units: about 10 watts max. This makes a LOT of sense, as standby "vampire" electricity consumption has been a big energy waster in the past.
Anyway, yes, there are most likely things to complain about with regard to energy standards for home appliances, but the regulation here that we are talking about has nothing to do with that.
and sometimes it pays for itself.
I spent about 2K extra for a 96 percent efficient Trane furnace.
My heat bills dropped by almost $100 per month.
In the 3 years I've had it I've more than made up for the extra cost.
BUT this efficiency was well understood, a lot of new HE stuff doesn't work.
Having said that if it had been double or treble the price - nope.
I spent about 2K extra for a 96 percent efficient Trane furnace.
My heat bills dropped by almost $100 per month.
In the 3 years I've had it I've more than made up for the extra cost.
BUT this efficiency was well understood, a lot of new HE stuff doesn't work.
Having said that if it had been double or treble the price - nope.
arbilab
Well-known member
The catch with high EER HVAC is, it was done very cutcorner and for every $ you save running it you spend $3 fixing it because it seldom runs more than a season without breaking down.
At my home (when I owned one) I had a very candid HVAC guy working on my 30yo Rheem. He told me what the Rheem cost to fix after 30yr, a new one would cost that much every 3yr. Or 10x less reliable.
At my home (when I owned one) I had a very candid HVAC guy working on my 30yo Rheem. He told me what the Rheem cost to fix after 30yr, a new one would cost that much every 3yr. Or 10x less reliable.
dj-gabriele
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for every $ you save running it you spend $3 fixing it
That's just plain stupid!
There are two things there: either American products are total crap (and I hope it's not the correct answer!) or they are terribly neglected and not fully understood.
Why would and high efficiency air conditioner be less susceptible to damage compared to a low efficiency one? Here it's the opposite, the better one is better crafted, with better components and better electronics, it will indeed last more than the Chinese stuff you buy on sale.
Same goes for water heaters and furnaces: good brands will last longer than cheap ones and spares will cost less and be available for longer!
That's just plain stupid!
There are two things there: either American products are total crap (and I hope it's not the correct answer!) or they are terribly neglected and not fully understood.
Why would and high efficiency air conditioner be less susceptible to damage compared to a low efficiency one? Here it's the opposite, the better one is better crafted, with better components and better electronics, it will indeed last more than the Chinese stuff you buy on sale.
Same goes for water heaters and furnaces: good brands will last longer than cheap ones and spares will cost less and be available for longer!
they aren't but...
American products aren't crap - the US (like Germany and Italy and many other nations) does great engineering. However, unlikely most other advanced countries, here folks are more concerned with price than quality in many, many different areas, appliances being one of them.
The other thing AMericans like are BIG things - with the national idea that 'bigger is better' so monsterous stoves, washing machines, etc. are very common.
Many of us, though, ARE motivated by performance, quality, durability, believing that high quality, high value things even if more expensive, would be cheaper in the long run.
HAVING SAID THAT I don't like buying NEW cheap appliances because I think OLD ones are a better value IF you don't have the cash for a high value new one.
Make sense?
American products aren't crap - the US (like Germany and Italy and many other nations) does great engineering. However, unlikely most other advanced countries, here folks are more concerned with price than quality in many, many different areas, appliances being one of them.
The other thing AMericans like are BIG things - with the national idea that 'bigger is better' so monsterous stoves, washing machines, etc. are very common.
Many of us, though, ARE motivated by performance, quality, durability, believing that high quality, high value things even if more expensive, would be cheaper in the long run.
HAVING SAID THAT I don't like buying NEW cheap appliances because I think OLD ones are a better value IF you don't have the cash for a high value new one.
Make sense?
dj-gabriele
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Make sense? Perfect sense!
Anyway, if it was me, I would have enacted an even stricter regulation as this is just a fake, the threshold imposed are way too low for "efficient" HVAC.
At home I personally have (it's 10 years now!) a condenser combi-boiler that's very fuel efficient and an inverter A/C (DeLonghi) that's so efficient that the new unit uses 1/3 less energy compared to the previous!
Anyway, if it was me, I would have enacted an even stricter regulation as this is just a fake, the threshold imposed are way too low for "efficient" HVAC.
At home I personally have (it's 10 years now!) a condenser combi-boiler that's very fuel efficient and an inverter A/C (DeLonghi) that's so efficient that the new unit uses 1/3 less energy compared to the previous!
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