Deciding on a KDS-?? KA dishwasher...can't decide

[voodoochikin04]

Hello folks,

My first post here after reading quite a bit for the last week or so. I've decided to hunt for a KA dishwasher in the kds-12 to 21 vintage, leading more towards the 15-18 range so far. BUT i'm just not sure. I have read several things that @stevet has written about the 21-22 series units as well, but have read so much about how the 18 series is overall best when adding the larger top arm. I am also in love with the look of the earlier models (kds-12). I need help deciding what to look for, basically a nudge in the right direction as I find myself being very indecisive.

As a precursory note, I am in the process of restoring a 1946 Chambers gas range model 15B if anyone is intrigued at looking at cool vintage ranges, I can share a photo or two of that as well. That being said, i'm not afraid of disassembly and repairing these older appliances

I look forward to discussion with you guys!

-Matt

 

[combo52]

Hi Matt, Welcome To The Site

The answer to which one you should go after will depend on several things, such as

 

If you want the older look that might have been in the kitchen with your range.

 

Do you want a DW that actually does a great job washing dishes, how much will you actually use this DW ?

 

How much money and time do you want to spend, the older 12-14s are much harder to get and keep working.

 

Parts for KA DWs KD15 and later are much more common.

 

You are also better off finding [ or buying ] an almost unused DW, restoring a tired KA DW is not usually worth it when you consider how many good ones are out there.

 

John L.

 

[voodoochikin04]

John thanks for the reply. I've read a lot of what you've posted as well on the WP du8000xr (i think thats right).. and i've been scoping those out. I did find a pretty much unused kds-15 that might be a good candidate if I decide to go to KA. I just cant get over some photos i've seen of how well that WP can clean..

 

[neptunebob]

There must be some way to get this GE and KA

It's in an abandoned ski resort in New York, on an urban explorer channel.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[DADoES]

 
Link above doesn't work.

Kitchen of note starts at 16:12

 

[combo52]

Nevele Sky Resort

Thats a great 1966 40" GE P7 range and KDS-15 DW someone should drive up there and grab.

 

John L.

 

[ken]

Nevele is 15 minutes from me. My father worked on the tower building when it was being constructed. Sad to see how dilapidated the place is. Gone the same way as 99% of all the once beautiful resorts in this area. The old Fallsview, next door, now under the name Honor's Haven is still in business. Not many left. Most all owned by Hasidic communities now.

What year did GE Self-cleaning ranges first have a window in the oven door? [this post was last edited: 9/3/2020-10:25]

 

[panthera]

Hi and Welcome, pictures are always cool!

It's quite true that parts for KDS15 and later are easier to get. We restored a portable 15 with no parts problems, at all.

However - and I know this will upset some members of the KA Ladies Auxiliary, but, what the hey:

KA dishwashers aren't the easiest machines to set up to be among the best cleaners on earth.

They demand precise placement.

They require pre-rinsing.

They do not like high-foaming modern detergents.

They don't like many dry modern rinse-aides.*

 

They have major problems with dishware and pots and pans and glasses which do not fit their accepted size and shape range.

Based on the seven we have restored, the Hobart KA are beautiful pieces of machinery and, despite their many, many, many limitations, well worth having as daily drivers. The Whirlpool stuff is trash. Don't waste your time on it.

Personally, if I were tackling this, I'd go up from the 15 as the top rack placement problems (not issues, PROBLEMS) are too severe. Basically, I have used it for the last 14 years exclusively for it's bottom rack force de frappe approach to cleaning really dirty pots and pans.

*Now, remember, ladies, before screaming, we have had several and use one for every party overflow, so throwing in the standard 'nobody else has ever experienced this, not ever, all KA are perfect, absolutely without flaw' is not going to help Matt get the best results from his KA.

 

 

[voodoochikin04]

Well that seems like very good advice there, almost to the point of suggesting I should not get a vintage KA lol.

I did find a kds-15 that was pulled from an office kitchen. It has all the stickers on the inside face of the door, no rust stains or signs of ever being used. BUT I also have a wife who would despise a dishwasher that won't clean well, as we have been handwashing for years.

So I'm torn. $2000 on a modern TOL house brand or cool vintage machine to show our support for old quality built american housewares.

 

[qsd-dan]

Keep in mind that any model below the 18 is a one arm wonder, no wash arm under the top rack. That alone should deter you from those older models as everyday drivers but they do exceptionally well at washing large items by removing the upper rack.

The KD-18-20 use the same motor/pump design (different upper wash arm support and wash arm) as the SR24 that Hobart produced until several years ago (forget exactly when now) making for parts easily obtainable. Timers and switch banks have long since been obsoleted but they still pop up on ebay.

KDS-18 requires 150F at the tap for good results. The 19 and 20 machines will preheat water to 150F, so use those (or later models) if you refuse to kick up the temps on your water heater.

The 21+ series are good and filter better than any of the previous series, but only have a quick purge and one final rinse. It's claimed the racks in those machines deteriorate fast due to inferior rinsing. The fine mesh filter for those models deteriorate over time and are NLA. They're quickly becoming very hard to find now.

KDS-18 is the only true 3 level wash design of the entire Hobart series and is best at keep yibbles off of the tops of dishes on the upper rack. It's the last residential dishwasher Hobart made with a 180F final rinse sani cycle. It uses more water per fill than the 19+ models.

I installed a 19 upper rack and an SR24 wash arm setup on my KDS-18 for the ultimate setup. Also installed a fine mesh filter in the sump which works exceptionally well. On top of that, I installed an external push button switch that cuts power to the timer motor, allowing me to manipulate cycles and water fills. You think 12 hours is a long cycle time in some modern dishwashers, I can make my machine wash for 12 days.

 

[panthera]

I would go with a KA 18 or a Potscrubber I or III

If you want a vintage dishwasher that actually cleans without pre-rinsing, pre-washing and major attention to how you load it.

There is a gigantic split in the vintage dishwasher community between the KA people and the rest of us, so you have to take my feelings with a grain of salt if KA is what you really want. I refuse to pre-rinse, pre-scrape only bones and olive pits and demand perfection, regardless of how I load the machine.

That makes KA a no-go for me. But, a pristine KA15 might just be worth the minor annoyances to you, especially if you like a dishwasher which will basically put an end to exchanging family colds.

 

[voodoochikin04]

Haha too funny. IDK what I want.. i got on the hunt for KA probably because of old posts I've read of people praising them like the second coming. I want vintage, that will do a good job. I can be plenty cognizant of proper loading technique without a problem. Not trying to bargain for gold with my lead. I do have a scope out on a kds-58 which I believe to be the portable version of the kds-18, trying to get some all around photos from the seller.. $50... the two photos I have appear to be great shape. Right now a portable would be ok as we have not started to rearrange our kitchen and build out space for it yet. I also believe I read that the kds-58 can be converted to built in without issues. At any rate, @panthera what would be your idealistic choice if in my shoes?

 

[voodoochikin04]

qsd-dan that is interesting about swapping the parts into the kds-18.. Id love to hear your thoughts on your DW. The pros & cons.

 

[panthera]

I'd go for the ka

Because I think that's what you truly want. Personally, I prefer the potscrubberIÍI with the multi orbital arm, I truly believe, though, you should go with what you
want.

 

[qsd-dan]

The SR24 wash arm, wash arm support, and strainer are very expensive to piece together but it does perform very well. The upper wash arm support and wash arm design are built much sturdier than the hydrosweep and more powerful to boot. In residential use, they'll never wear out. The SR24 strainer is ridiculously coarse.....a rhinoceros could squeeze through it, so I modified and installed a fine meshed anti splatter screen that sits perfectly in the sump. It filters much better than the original screen or the finer 19/20 filter screens.

This is not recommended upgrade for the lukewarm collector. It's very expensive to piece together and requires adjustments using special tools that have been long gone for decades.

 

[voodoochikin04]

What do you consider expensive?

Honestly I'm torn now, I came in here thinking I wanted a KA... But now not so sure. I don't want to waste my time with something I'll resent... Lol

 

[chachp]

An opinion a little more in the middle ......

 

<span style="font-family: helvetica;">I've had both the Potscrubber and multiple KA machines 15-21.  I happen to prefer the KA machines.  I never found the filtration to be bad at all.  Here are a few pictures of my 15 machine before and after the load.  This load has the potential to have a lot of leftover nibbles given the food soil.  I think this was Risotto but I can't remember.  If you go with a 17 series you'll have the upper rinse as well.  When you get to the 18 series you'll get the additional wash arm but it starts to look a little more modern than you may want for your kitchen which I think is true with the 17 as well. There is a link to the 15 Series running.  I am trying to add pictures of my Potsrubber loaded but for some reason they won't upload.  If I can work it out I'll add those too.</span>

 

<span style="font-family: helvetica;">In my opinion, the bottom line is if you want a vintage machine you're gonna have to pay a little more attention to loading techniques, and likely make repairs.  The Potscrubber machine gives you a little more flexibility in loading because it has a separate wash system under the upper rack.  The KA washarm will take the paint off of a bumper.  I have had items in the upper rack flip over with a fully loaded lower rack.  The last pictures is the 17 series with the upper rinse.</span>

 

<span style="font-family: helvetica;">As far as parts availability you'll need to hunt eBay and rely on the generosity of members here to keep either one of them going.  I've worked on both of them and they are both pretty easy to work on.  Neither are going to be terribly expensive to buy compared to newer machines.  </span>

 

<span style="font-family: helvetica;">This is what I would do if your budget allows.  Hunt for both.  If you find a nice machine in both models you can switch them around occasionally.  A dishwasher install is fairly easy.  If I were making the decision I'd wonder which one will go better with your decor.  You're gonna have gotchas either way you go.  How important is the look?  How tolerant are you to the quirks of an older machine?</span>

 

[voodoochikin04]

so here is the original KDS-15 I was scoping out. what can be determined by these two pictures?

 

[chachp]

Is it this one?

 

<span style="font-family: helvetica;">If it is, and it was me I would grab it.  Those buttons show no use and all and given the paper is still on the door I'd say it didn't get much use.  That is if you want a Kitchen Aid but that's just me.</span>

 

<span style="font-family: helvetica;">https://www.ebay.com/itm/vintage-ki...193538?hash=item2af089de02:g:IX0AAOSwgINfSxoR</span>

 

[voodoochikin04]

Yea thats the one I was talking to the seller about. I think ill try to nab it. couple hours away from me, but a days trip can have it home.

 

[combo52]

Unused KDS-15

Yes I would vote for this DW since you want something fairly vintage, If you wanted to move into the 80s then I would get a WP built power clean style DW, well used KDS-18-KD 23 DWs just have too many problems not the least of which is so-so cleaning and rinsing.

 

This KD-15 series DW was top rated for cleaning in CRs in 1966, it is a great performer if loaded properly and does boost water temperature slightly.

 

I you insulate the tank somewhat and use modern detergents you can get great results with incoming water temperatures in the 120-130F range.

 

John L.

 

[surfduzdaz]

I recently got a KDS-58, and made a video about it. I've wanted a vintage model for a long time. I'm still learning about the machine (not a dishwasher expert by any means), but so far I can safely say it's one of my favorite purchases ever.

 

[panthera]

Go for it!

The condition is too good to pass up.

 

[voodoochikin04]

Dang that kds-58 looks amazing. I found one a few hours away but the seller is jerking me around when I ask for pictures. I've seen one half janky picture of the front/top edge and then one picture of the tag... If I nabbed that kds-15 from eBay I feel like maybe I'll be lacking that upper wash arm And constant rinse at the top. However against that, I've read the rubber boot for the upper wash arm is impossible to find and if failed or cracked, then I'm rendered figuring out my own solution. I do think I love the look of the KA...

 

[chachp]

Best of luck..

 

<span style="font-family: helvetica;">Well whichever one you settle on, the best of luck.  I wouldn't mind a peek at the stove you are working on if you want to share.</span>

 

[qsd-dan]

I have an NOS rubber boot for the upper rack of KA-18 dishwashers and thought about sending it out and having a few custom made ones that could handle at least 200F temps, harsh environmental conditions, and be food safe (probably made out of silicone). The problem I've seen on this site many times is that everybody is Gung Ho about purchasing a part when a poll is taken and almost nobody actually follows through. Having a low production run on a custom item is not cheap, either.

 

[voodoochikin04]

I might try to get both of them, would be a whole day traveling round trip for both. @qsd-dan One of my companies does polyurethane parts but nothing with silicone. It cost us about $1000 to have some simple molds made for small parts, and around that same cost for injection molds. Feel free to post a picture of the part and ill see if I can help.

heres a picture of the chambers range im restoring. First 3 photos are the original sale ad. I paid $550 for it. Picked it up a month ago. Its currently 98% stripped down and about half cleaned. Model 15B 1946 or 47.. cant remember what the tag showed and its bagged away on the shelves.

 

[combo52]

KA DW Parts

We have more parts than we will ever use for KD15 and later KA DWs including a good supply of those rubber boots for the upper wash arm feed for KDS-18 DWs.

 

Parts for these machines are out there, during the beginning of the pandemic we finally got a chance to sort a lot of the parts we have.

 

I anyone needs a part get in touch, I will try and find what you need, I will not entertain people that say they want 2 or 3 of a certain part because they want to stach extras thus keeping others from getting a part they need.

 

John L.

 

[voodoochikin04]

Well I think someone from here for that eBay kds-15. Soon as the link was posted the watch count shot up and it sold for over what I was willing to pay for it. $200+.

 

[firedome]

that's eBay for ya...

just keep looking for the KA of your dreams, imo no other machine was built as well. My folks had a KDS-15, and several GE Potscrubbers. We've had the KA, Maytag,,and several newer GE and Hotpoints. Nothing approached the KA for build quality and longevity. And I've never understood the reluctance to do a quick pre-rinse. why start out with a lot of crud in your machine, and personally I dislike cleaning filters, so we'e always pre-rinsed. By paying even the slightest attention to loading we always had great results from the KDC-17 that we used for 15 yrs, and with 3 kids we did a helluva lot of dishes. Hobart made those 1 arm wonders for decades, including for commercial use, so they must have worked pretty darn well! Still have a real nice one out in the shed awaiting installation, along with Paul's '60s GE awaiting pickup, if the border ever re-opens that is! LOL Vintage rules...
go for it - that's my $.02!