Do you use a Rinse Aid?

[kenmoreguy89]

With my current crappy Bosch forget getting something dried as you open the DW, unless you leave it open and wait about 40 mins, let alone plastic.
With our old Rex/Zanussi, which IIRC had a vented heated drying, hard plastic would come out dry, though flixible stuff such as Tupperware would still have some light droplets, not too bad since they're opaque and that would not be that much of a problem.
I do use the maximum setting of rinse aid possible in the Bosch and sometimes if I can "catch" the machine in time during the last rinse fill I add about 3/4 tablespoon rinse aid more, that way the drying as I open the door is faster and save me from passing with towel at least the pots and some dishes, water and marks on other items and glaases are reduced but still there though... I can't even imnagine if I would not use it.
As for the chemical.....well, I do use the DW just in occasion of large meals or guests now.... but I am still "healty" and alive and could not really notice anything different in matter of taste or anything because of the increased amount of RA used and so meaningful-hazardous quantities of RA potentially left on pans and dishes...it would be insignificant anyway really IMO.
In all honesty I'd be more concerned about the chemicals that are in the food and drinks we consume than of that little *nothing* that may be on our dishes because of RA....

 

[kqkenmore]

Well I remember when we got our first DW mama paid 20.00 for a GE basic DW that a GE repairman got from a call because they said that they wanted another DW. when he put it in he told us to use either Cascade or Electra-Sol. We tried both I did not like the smell of Electra-Sol and it left spots so we used Cascade and never used rinse aid. Cascade always worked. Now in my horriable Kenmore I have to use rinse aid or I have food residue even with the best Cascade so I use it and I have tried everything I am on the last of Bubble Bandit and I am finding that it is no better than anything else the only ones that seem to work are Cascade and Finish that I mix with myown STPP which I have got to find a place here in Memphis that sells STPP.

 

[brib68]

Jet Dry

We have a 2009 KA near-TOL, with stainless tub. Always use a tab detergent (Finish Power Ball or Quantum, or sometimes Cascade) and Jet Dry. The Jet Dry Turbo does leave plastic items a bit drier. The one thing that I have found is that if I spill a bit of rinse agent when filling the dispenser (LOVE the level indicator window on this machine!) that if I don't wipe it up with a wet paper towel or sponge, the wash performance suffers!

Cascade used to make a product called Plastic Booster that would get stains out of plasticware. It was a miracle! I was so upset when it was discontinued. It did a great job getting the stains out of the Gladware that had leftover red sauce stored in it. It also would prevent the red sauce from dishes and pans from staining other plasticware during the cycle.

 

[washer111]

Launderess

Instead of adding the full-strength product straight to the dispenser of the MM, perhaps you could dilute it with some water to reduce the amount of RA you have to take in every cycle?

Not the most elegant solution - but certainly but than having a "trip on the bubbly high seas" every morning when you get a glass out the cupboard.

 

[kenmoreguy89]

I don't think Launderess said she gets foam out of glasses because of RA, or I misrepresented something? But just that she notice foam sitting on the bottom of the machine at cycle completed and a slow down due to froth created because of it in the rinse in-fact.
I have never experienced anything like that...even with the increased amount, never.
But if that is the case and she feels too much is used, I find the diluiting suggestion a very good one....though, I would go with distilled water as to avoid any mineral build up and such during the time in the tank, though NYC water is soft so that maybe wouldn't be that much of an issue...it likely would be so for me with our hard water...

 

[kenmoreguy89]

I don't think Launderess meant she has problems with foam creating from RA residues on glasses or mugs she uses, just some foam sitting in the bottom tub at the end of the cycle, which yes may even be likely due to a sightly higher concentration of today's RA's, and so a bit too much used. Or I misunderstood something?
I did notice some brands foams up more that others, have to say I never had such problems even when using the increased amount....maybe a very little bit/white ring around the filter that anyway dissipates quickly as it dries out leaving it open, that's it.
MM are powerful machines "as they should be", so I think the froth is also the result of a powerful/fair action that in today's DW miss, hence the slow down of some modern units as RA is released, MM as Launderess says indeed keeps going as if nothing happened, and can't say I am surprised to hear this.

It's easily understandable how she would prefer going with pro lower temp RA and skip heated drying though now as that would preserve the already lightly damaged- rust marked trays from the heat of drying cycle...

Anyway I find the diluiting suggestion a very good one whenever you have a machine with no control on the quantity erogated, and you feel it uses too much, though I would go with distilled water in order to avoid mineral build up in the compartment during the time, even true NYC water is soft, so maybe that would not be that much of a problem as it would be for me with our hard water...

If Mohammed will not go to the mountain, the mountain must come to Mohammed.
There's always a way.... and IMO even more elegant/classy! LOL
Again, very clever....
[this post was last edited: 8/26/2014-18:32]

 

[launderess]

Leave us be clear...

Froth is in the sump of the tub after cycle is complete, not in our cups and or glasses. As always anything poured into such vessels remains untainted by froth or anything else that at least one can see.

In any event it seems this dishwasher is making up one's mind for oneself. Yet again there was a small pool of RA discovered on the floor when the MM was wheeled to the sink this evening. This has happened several times now and indeed cleaned up the last leak trail when the cover was off in search of the missing motor bolts (was peering through the access area). Cannot say if the leaking was aggravated from the turning upside down and so forth in search of missing motor bolts but it is getting on one's nerve.

Think will just leave off using the dispenser and purchase one of those Jet Dry solid thingy. Can find solid commercial rinse agent that can be used as refill as opposed to the highway robbery prices Finish charges. One's only worry is that since Cascade in one's stash (Complete and Shine Protection, all loaded with phosphates), am worried about creating too much froth in wash cycles, but suppose will light that firecracker when we get to it. Just cannot have a leaky DW and am getting that tired of mopping up thick green "ooze" off my wood block floors. *LOL*

 

[bwoods]

use Rinse Agent?

Do I use "Jet Dry" or other rinse agents? Yes. Do I need to? No.

It's not so much the brand of the dishwasher, Whirlpool has no special abilities when it comes to anti-spotting, ha. It's water chemistry as in hardness (=calcium carbonate, aka calcite, aka lime)

Many spots are hardness deposits. Rinse agents reduce the surface tension and the water with the calcite content will run off the dishes before the water evaporates and leaves behind its mineral content.

Alcohols tend to go into a vapor state at lower temperatures than water, so at least the alcohol component of the rinse agents (and alcohol based compounds tend to be the primary constituent) will evaporate quickly and not leave a residue that you can consume.

By the same token, as there are microscopic food particles in suspension in the rinse water, they should (at least in theory) "sheet" off with the rinse water and not remain behind when the water evaporates, in the presence of a rinse aid. So even in soft water conditions, dishes should be cleaner (at a microscopic level).

No matter how good a dishwasher is or how effective its filtration, you are going to have some microscopic food particles in suspension. So from that aspect it behooves everyone to use a rinse agent.

My water is softened to 0 grains, so in My GE tower wash dishwashers and my Maytag Reverse Rack the dishes come out beautifully even without a rinse agent. I still use one however, and do they seem to have even a higher sheen and that luxuriously smooth/slick feel to the touch when they come out.

So if you use heated dry as I almost always do and have soft water you can get by very nicely without a rinse agent. But it's nice to know your dishes are a little cleaner at the microscopic level when you do use a rinse agent. Even though we can't see these particles with the naked eye a film of them on dishes and glassware do affect reflective light.

If you have "hard" water then you may want to more seriously consider a rinse agent, especially with some of the older dishwashers that really rinse well That sounds counterintuitive, but their more effective rinsing means less of the rinse agent, that was contained in the detergent, will be carried over into the final rinse.

 

[cornutt]

We have pretty hard water, so if we don't use a rinse aid, it's Spot City. So we use rinse aid more for that than for actual drying, which the Bosch does fairly well as long as we open the door for a while after the cycle completes. (Curiously, this model of Bosch does not have a no-heat dry option.)

It does tend to leave a haze on glassware after a while. They have to be hand washed with Dawn to get rid of that.

 

[bwoods]

detergent

What detergent are you using, David! Some detergents, especially the liquid detergents and the cheaper powder/tablets are more prone to leave white residues when you have hard water.  Finish PowerBall got a good review from CU for not leaving white deposits.

If your water is really hard, no matter what you do you will probably get filmy deposit build-up over time.

Hard water gets along with dishwashers about as well as Donald Trump gets along with Rosey O'Donnell.

Instead of handwashing to remove these deposits try "Glass Magic" or using white vinegar on a load of your filmy dishes. White vinegar is acidic and will dissolve calcium carbonate (water hardness) spots, if the concentration is high enough. I would start out with two cups of vinegar in the main wash (no detergent) and then let the dishwasher rinse it off. If you still have a little odor, you can put it on rinse and hold and let it rinse again.

Do you own your own home?  If so you might consider investing in a whole house water softener. Your dishes will not only come out gleaming, but you will also save on detergent for your laundry. You will not have to clean the hardwater scum off of your shower/tub and sinks and your hot water tank will not get the calcite (lime) deposits in it--which is a good thing. You will probably feel cleaner too as you are not leaving a combined film of water hardness and soap scum on your hair and body.

If you rent, often house landlords or apartment managers will allow you to install a rental water softener. It's advantageous to them as it is beneficial for their plumbing, dishwasher and fixtures. When I was younger, I had a softener put in in my first two apartments.  Neither manager had a problem with it.  It makes it easier for them to rent that unit out as they can then advertise it as already plumbed for a softener..

 

But for the interim, see if that white vinegar rinse doesn't help you out.

 

Bear

[this post was last edited: 9/1/2014-12:44]

 

[mich]

@Berry

Cascade Complete comes out on top, fighting film & hard water buildup considerably better than Finish Quantum.

Finish Powerball was shown, to leave a considerable residue after about 28 washes. According to CR.

 

[bwoods]

cascade complete

I'll have to give Cascade Complete a try, its been a while since I've used it. I don't subscribe to CU anymore and the last article I read on dw detergents was probably a couple of years ago, so they may have been reformulated.

At that time, if I recall correctly, Finish Powerball did better on pots and pans than the more expensive Finish Quantum. Spotting and filming is not an issue for me since I have soft water so I opted for the one with the most scrubbing power, so to speak.

I feel sorry for detergent manufacturer's as they have attempt to chemically compensate for the lack of phosphates that they are no longer permitted to use.

 

[cornutt]

bwoods, thanks... we are using Cascade Complete. Our kitchen plumbing is routed to facilitate the addition of a water softener, and we're thinking about it.

 

[passatdoc]

Hard water in our area. Bosch DW w/o heated drying. I always use a liquid rinse aid, either Jet Dry/Finish or Cascade Rinse Aid. No spots, ever. I don't see the logic of an all in one packet since the rinse agent has already been rinsed away before final rinse. In addition, as I understand it, DWs without heated dry depend on water evaporating off dishes and condensing on the steel sides of the tub. Rinse agent enhances that process.

 

[gelaundry4ever]

rinse aid

My Kenmore has a concealed heating element, so rinse aid is a must.

 

[dermacie]

Yes either finish or cascade. I actually prefer cascade rinse aid the best since jet dry is no longer and is now finish.

 

[qsd-dan]

No, I have a water softener.

 

[panasonicvac]

Nope

I did at one point until it caused my dishwasher to leak. Thankfully I have soft water.

 

[combo52]

No, it doesn't seem to make any difference with the good detergent pods our glasses come out sparkling. Our water is around 6 to 9 grains of hardness here.

The other reason I don't use it as it says, do not ingest the stuff on the bottle, so I'm not gonna have it dried all over the dishes I'm eating off of while There Hasn't been any serious claims of harm with the stuff that's used in home dishwashers but there is a lot of concern about eating at restaurants where they use a strong solution of it in commercial machines. I think it messes with your digestive track at the least.

And of course, the other reason not to use it it's is it seems unnecessary. Why buy something all the money packaging and waste that goes into buying unnecessary things is another good reason not to bother with it.

John

 

[gelaundry4ever]

to dermacie

I thought it was called Finish jet dry, just as Electrasol is now just FInish. Same products. They do the job. I found they work better than Cascade in my case. My dishwasher doesn't have a heat dry option, but Dry assist. Even if I had a water softener, I'd still use rinse aid anyway. I don't want to take any chances.