Electric Cars are now Biting into Gasoline Sales

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bradfordwhite

bradfordwhite

Well-known member
Joined
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According to Wolf,
Even though we're collectively driving more miles and with an increase in population, gasoline sales are falling after plateauing in 2018.

Other sources have pointed out how some auto manufacturers have made no or few preparations to electrify. Surprisingly companies such as Toyota, Honda, and Subaru could well end up bankrupt in just a few years. Something I would not have ever thought but apparently a majority of their stock holders are also holders of oil stocks and are trying to hold down progress.

The switch over to electric vehicles is looking more and more like it's going to be like how it was around 2005 with the switch over from tube tvs to flat panels. I remember going to a Circuit City around that time to shop, then coming back to the store about 5 months later and all the TVs were now flat panel models. It was incredible how fast it went.

China- the MOST IMPORTANT auto market on the planet, has basically made it impossible to register gasoline cars there and the biggest electric car makers, besides Tesla, are Chinese.



https://wolfstreet.com/2023/05/11/evs-made-the-first-visible-dent-into-gasoline-consumption/
bradfordwhite-2023051121272404375_1.jpg
 
When I can go to a charging station and it charges full as quick as a gas pump fill up cheaper than gasoline, maybe I will consider it. But with the horrible charges for electricity here I refuse to listen to save the world. I look at save my wallet. There are no electric vehicles I ever see around here and with a 90% increase in my electric bill for the same KWH I used a year ago this month. Forget it, I am going back to burning wood for heat. I Refuse to turn to all electric until the cost is comes way down
 
The future is electric for most car owners

Most of us will never use charging stations very much that are going to drive electric cars.

You merely plug them in at your home and they’re always ready to go for several hundred miles.

It is far cheaper even at $.30 a kilowatt hour to use an electric car than to pay three dollars a gallon for gasoline It’s not even close.

It’s not surprising that companies like Toyota and Subaru are going to fall behind. These companies were never innovative. All they were good at is copying American in European technology

And unfortunately they’ve gotten too complacent and they haven’t been copying electric cars, the Koreans and the Chinese are going to get the bulk of the business in electric cars if Toyota and Subaru don’t get on board fast. Toyota sold. A lot of Prius is, but they should’ve only been making plug-in models. There’s no point buying a highbred that you can’t plug-in you’re just throwing your money away on gasoline.

John
 
I agree with John in the fact that electric cars would work fine around town. But I think I'll wait until battery technology gets better and we can go at least 600 miles or more, between charging. My daughter lives 365 miles away, and I don't want to have to search out a charging station that may be the wrong type, broken, or waiting on someone else to get done using it. I just read a news story of a woman who lives in Cali, I think, that had owned an electric car for 3 years, but was thinking of getting rid of it for the reasons I listed above. If the goverment want to push this, they better hurry up and support the build out of charging stations far beyond where were at today. And will batteries ever get that good? I don't know, but when you consider what smart phones can do now, that used to take a room full of computers to do, I hope so.[this post was last edited: 5/12/2023-09:18]
 
Toyota going under??I have one of their BZ4X electric cars and like it.A level one charger comes with the car(12A120V).The 240V level2 30A charger is optional.A list of charge stations came with the car.There are several in Greenville.Haven't tried them yet.Just plug in a home.Yes th Toyota car I have is a start-figure the tech will improve.Mainly with batteries.The car I have has a 355V 71kwhr Lithium battery pack under the floor boards.200Hp motor and converters under the hood.And--a conventioanl 12V LA battery for the 12 system.The 12V battery is charged from the 355 main traction battery.
 
#7

Yes, the BZ4X is made by BYD for Toyota. I commend you on your electric vehicle purchase.

BYD is a Chinese company, one of several electric car manufacturers in China's competitive market. Apparently they make some really nice vehicles that compete well with vehicles like Tesla.

I'm just wondering when they are going to start selling in the U.S.

https://www.byd.com/us/news-list
bradfordwhite-2023051300351607272_1.jpg

bradfordwhite-2023051300351607272_2.jpg
 
" China- the MOST IMPORTANT auto market on the planet "


 

Of course it is! Thats because its economy is booming now compared to what ours was because all our industry has gone there because we've been sold out by greedy CEO's and doosh politicians. This country used to be the most important auto market in the world for many years. Now all we're known for the last two years is a tanking economy, insane energy costs, a border wide open letting in the worst of the worst in world terrorists and underminers blending in with the " dreamers " and " birthing units ",  on top of bankrupting the federal govt laundering money to Ukraine,  shutting down so called dirty power plants here putting our insanely deficient electrical grid in even more jeopardy than it already is by adding more and more electrical vehicles to the burden plus appliances as well. Who honestly cares about well or important China is anyways? If they are its because we helped make it happen buying all their sub par shite. Im more concerned about whats happening here, and electric vehicle sales and wind/solar power generation are still a drop in the bucket. This country will be running on internal combustion and using gas stoves after we're all gone. The only difference will be if we're flying the flag of China or Russia by then and how much energy will cost us under Communist control. I'll keep my 750 mile range 23 year old turbo diesel Golf thanks. This country aint getting no gold stars lately.
 
The car I bought was from the Greenville Toyotas stock.They are planning on stocking more of these cars.Will have to look in the doorjamb to see if mine was built in China.Its a very high quality vehicle.China can build some good things.
 
#10

China and India are important from the stand point that they are "modernizing" (driving cars vs riding bikes for example) things the U.S. outgrew decades ago. The auto industry in the U.S. is saturated, as are other similar industries.
And this goes for nearly every other European market. In fact, most of them are worse off.

It's also about growth of population per a country. The U.S. is still growing but it's growth is slowing. Other countries listed above are actually contracting in population. Japan is a good example.

And these are good things for the planet as there are way too many people crowded onto this finite planet already. When you hear certain members in the business community whining about population growth it's only because their old models of doing business don't work anymore.

It's all a tribute to how rich a country we COLLECTIVELY are. Don't let some sleazy politician or other boogy man try and imply that the U.S. is going bankrupt (and thus we must stop the meager amounts spent on food stamps) Those are just lies.

Even with the interest rates rising in the last year, something that is well over do and we need MUCH MUCH higher interest rates; but here we are a year later and still inflation is rising. That's how hot of a market we live in. That's how much money we have here in the u.s.

Petroleum will continue declining and that's great. We don't live for environment polluting oil companies, and certainly not the thoughtless investors of such.

It all comes down to demographics.

 
Don't many electric cars use lithium-ion batteries? And aren't those something of a fire hazard?

 

One of my neighbors has a Prius. I had no idea it wasn't rechargeable. Another neighbor from a block or two away, parks their Tesla near here. They love their Tesla, or so I'm told.
 
Electric cars have a long way to go before equaling and surpassing an ICE with a price tag that's affordable to the average citizen and a small polluting footprint (recycling batteries). The load they will place on an already stressed grid, along with other appliance related items forced to switch over, will be the biggest challenge. Realistically, it will take 15-20 years for tech to catch up along with building a grid that can withstand the necessary electrical output.
 
people fought the coming of the gasoline car

Who fought the adoption of gas powered vehicles, the buggy whip industry?

Were massive government subsides and incentives needed to convince people to give up their horse and wagons?

Was the government trying to force people into purchasing motor vehicles though bans on horse and buggies?

Was the government forcing horse and buggy manufacturers to build motor vehicles through regulations on the amount of horse manure each buggy produced?
 
Horse and buggies did end up having to be banned on public roadways because of the obvious incompatibility of such things with automobiles. Horses frighten easily with motor vehicles, they are slow, they die, the poop all over EVERYWHERE.... it's unacceptable.
Very similar today how human drivers and petroleum vehicles are no longer desirable on the roads. Robots and AI do a great job driving a vehicle and virtually eliminate all accidents.
What's the biggest problem with autonomous automobiles? It's humans driving and animals(including humans) interfering with the road way.

It's reasonably easy to eliminate animals and humans from interfering with roadways. It's getting a ban on human drivers that's essential.

Once that is put in place, think of how nice it will be to subscribe to a <span style="text-decoration: underline;">transport SERVICE</span>

instead of having to buy, drive, insure, fix, garage, clean, and be licensed to drive a vehicle.

AND you no longer need to be concerned about driving. I love it.

 

Plus getting the type of vehicle you need just be requesting it and only paying for what you need as long as you need it.

 

 
#16

Just like how computer and cel phones evolved.  

 

Think of your first computer and peripherals.  ..and how much did you pay?   LOL

 

My first (real) computer was an IBM in 1996 and it replaced a Packard Bell computer I had purchased a month earlier at CompUSA.  I paid like $1100 .  LOL  Yes, a Packard Bell.

 

But anyway, that IBM had a 4.3 GB hard drive. 

 

Technology progressed fast over the years.  It's doing the same with electric cars only faster because computers are making everything evolve much faster.  Faster than humans can adopt to at this point.

 
 
I actually stopped on a dime for a horse-drawn wagon in Ohio of which two horses were pulling and a man leading them was riding in on my way to the State's Fair...

Horses and buggies are still the main form of transportation in the parts of Indiana such as Shipshewana which I frequently visit...

And, heck, outdoor lights are strung around vertical structures such as poles and trees using indoor two-prong extension cords and the lighting strips seemingly rated more for indoor use than what I can't imagine weathering winter conditions when such would be mainly lit, though I think these lights are on nightly year round...

Computers and phones, too, have evolutionized way beyond what mankind can imagine, though hairdly in mass ways the way automotive industry products are going to be expected to, no matter how many volumes of those there are in use...

There will always be a vehicle's carrying capacity and ability to maintain traction in various inclement conditions and often a proven ability to conquer both that will need to be developed at least there in what's heavy duty use...

Lastly when horses, oxen, mules and other animals were abandoned as regular use for transport, think of how fossil fuels were abundant and even easily refined when the automotive age finally came about and many who'd scorned, scoffed at or simply would not accept this change somehow easily and quickly adapted to this eternal stage...

And that's even doing the work involved in building, maintaining and providing the needed energy for, never thinking about any negative effects such as noise or pollution as much as enjoying the much obvious and positive advantage the progress of such offered, never looking back at the previous mode, and allowing this revolution in transit to go on for centuries...

Many improvements have and still come a long way, so harnessing a similar capability via a certain other source permanently as another standard seemingly needs to be as dramatically developed, and only time will tell how well and everlastingly permanent this change will be...

-- Dave
 
>> But I think I'll wait until battery technology gets better and we can go at least 600 miles or more, between
>> charging. My daughter lives 365 miles away, and I don't want to have to search out a charging station that
>> may be the wrong type, broken, or waiting on someone else to get done using it.

The point of diminishing returns hits way before 600 miles. They could make an EV with a 600 mile range today, but it wouldn't be what consumers want. More range takes more batteries, and more batteries means more weight, which means more power is required just to haul your battery pack around. Plus with increased weight comes worse handling, faster tire wear, lower interior and cargo space, more energy losses to pack heating and cooling, and most importantly - slower charging when it's depleted and higher cost per mile on road trips.

With the battery technology we have today (and the improvements that are forecast), a car with a 300 mile range is going to be much more pleasant day-to-day than a 600+ mile car.
 
@ Reply 22

"...a car with a 300 mile range is going to be much more pleasant day-to-day than a 600+ mile car..."

Yes, but what happens if you're the type of person that doesn't use their car as a "commuter appliance" or grocery getter?

As an example, my wife and I enjoy our long-distance road trips to the Carolinas, several times a year. In our gas-powered cars, we can make the drive in about 8 or 9 hours, only having to stop once for fuel (I'll save you the trouble - we're weirdos that do not stop for bathroom, stretch, or food breaks. It's all about making time, and enjoying our destination).

With the current state of BEVs, you'd be stopping multiple times, often for 30 or more minutes. To Mrs. Volvoman and I, that's waste. Sure, car makers tout a 250 or 300 mile range. But that's assuming that you're not using the climate control system, have to pass a truck using reserve power, or listening to the radio. An accurate estimate, is to take that range, and divide it in half. Car and Driver just published an article putting a gas-powered Jetta against a Chevrolet Bolt. The Bolt started off well...but then, it rained. And with the traction of the tires against the wet road, the range dropped precariously. With a gas car, this isn't something a person has to worry about.

Make no mistake - I'm not bashing electric cars. In fact, they're quite useful for those that live in the city, have short commutes, or only use their vehicle for quick errands. But for what our family needs, they're not ready for prime time. When a BEV comes out that can charge as quickly as it takes to fuel an ICE vehicle, goes the same distance between charging as an ICE vehicle, and costs the same as an ICE vehicle, I'll gladly make the switch. But now is not the time.
 
most people...

have more the one car, so it makes sense to have an EV for short trips, which comprises 80-90% of most people's driving, and an IC vehicle for trips if long range is a factor. That's our plan, as soon as Toyota makes the type of EV we want.
 
Nissan Leaf Experience

I was an "early adopter" in 2011 when I took delivery of my 2011 Nissan Leaf SL. It was number 2535 off the line.
The "sales claim" was "up to 100 miles on a charge".
I never got more than 85 miles on a charge and usually more like 65-75.
I loved the EV driving experience and, with all the rebates, tax incentives, and other "perks", I was really motivated to go electric.
Despite the limited range, I enjoyed driving the car and it was perfect for running local errands and short trips.
The low maintenance needs were also a selling point for me. Brake fluid changes and tire rotations were all I ever needed. One set of new tires at around 30k miles.
After 12 years and 42k miles, the 24KWh battery capacity was giving me only about 20-30 miles of range.
Nissan wanted $13,500 to replace the battery so I decided to just sell the car to CarMax for $3400 a couple of months ago.
Yes - there are independent shops that change out EV batteries but sadly, none in my area.
If I could have gotten a new and larger capacity battery for a decent price, I would have kept the car.
For now, I am back to driving only my ICE car.
I might consider an EV in the future when battery technology improves AND range is equal to an ICE car.
Then, an EV could be my only car rather than just a "city car".
 
Short trips in mild climate areas is about the only option for EV's at the moment.

 

A/C sucks down battery power in the hot areas with the same problem as running the heater in colder areas. Also, be aware that there's a battery heater which keeps it from freezing. That heater can significantly reduce battery power just sitting in the garage/parking lot in temps at and below freezing.

 

Hybrids are still where it's at for the moment, just drive them easy. The first hybrid I saw was a Honda Insight in early 1999 while I was driving up the Altamont Pass. The speed limit was (still is) 65 MPH and I was doing 70 so I didn't have to downshift out of 5th gear in my brand new Honda Accord. That Insight blew past me on the left lane at more than 85 MPH. It just seemed counterproductive driving a Hybrid to save on gas while dogging the crap out of it up a semi steep hill. It was also brand new, which is not an ideal way to treat a vehicle before it's broken in.
 

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