Europe phosphate regulations- all STPP out within 2016 in DW products?

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While I haven't been smoking anything, it wouldn't hurt to clarify that I am comparing Cascade with phosphates to Finish Quantum and the latest version of Finish Power Ball, neither of which have phosphates. Both preform better than the Cascade pacs I have with phosphates. I did recently buy Cascade Platinum which doesn't have phosphates, but I haven't tried it yet. Currently trying to use up my stash of the first version of Finish Quantum. One package of the Finish Quantum seems to have gotten moisture in it, as the tabs are a bit swollen and sticky. Luckily, it hasn't impacted performance.

I have purchased but haven't yet tried the newer version of Finish Quantum which has a gel in one part of the package instead of two different powders. My guess is that the newer version would work even better than the original.

All my experience is using a Bosch dishwasher that has a long, 30-35 minute wash, which always is heated to 140F on the regular cycle, 155F on the Power Scrub Plus Cycle. My water heater is set around 120F, and combined with the long distance from my water heater to the dishwasher, the wash portion of the cycle always spends some time at the lower temps that the new enzyme detergents best work to break down soils, before heating to the higher temps where the bleaching ingredients work better. A dishwasher starting a wash with very hot water is not taking full advantage of the newer detergent formulations.

 
I am just the opposite of you....
I have tried every sorts of products, american finish , powder, powerball without stpp, italian finish powder and powerball with stpp... Cascade both with and w/ out stpp...
The finish without stpp didn't work quite well as the italian finish with phosphates instead did....even though the difference was not as noticeable as it is with cascade with and w/out stpp..

But if I had to choose among italian finish and cascade with stpp, I would get my cascads any day!
Time ago I have acquired a stock of Vintage cascade sheeting action off ebay, and it performed so much better than finish powerball and powder did, both the variations with and w/ out phosphates, of course...
I found cascade to be one of the best powders I have ever tried... I have also tried a box of new one without stpp as I was saying, it was not terrible but incomparable to the older version...it left white marks and some dried on stuff behind.

I am fan of finish phosphated powder though for what concerns ones sold here, I find it to be totally different from the tablets, I also like the old school phosphated regular finish gel lemon that we used to use for a period when I was little, now is simply too expensive....finish is one of the best phosphated powders that are sold here, I also like the one of the discount I get here for 1,99 made by McBride (it has phosphates), it is as good as the finish but for less than half the cost finish have...
I usually prefer using powders and sometimes gels rather than the tablets.....but I do not miss to try even tablets at times if they're on offer...

[this post was last edited: 4/21/2014-17:03]
 
One of the most terrible products I have ever tried, were Lidl's w5 new tablets, that really could not even wash out dried mustard..... i ended up crumbling them and using to scrub the sink..
I used to be satisfied with the old white and yellow ones, I think they were called adritt, , but from a few years now they have changed them and canged the name to W5, infact the old ones were made in Luxembourg and had phosphates, the ones they sell now have no phosphates and comes from Germany, when first I bought them I got two packages, I returned my unopened one and claimed my money back quite pissed off...
They were the first experiences with non phosphated products....
 
I think again some of our American friends dont understand why European Technology is hitting America and why it is so beneficial.

Dishwashers here have been proven to use as little as 12 litres on a dirty full load and get the absolute best results known.

They can do this by utilising low wattage pumps, cycling between the wash arms so the water can cope being spread about. This adds extra time.

It is not the water usage per se but the ENERGY used to heat it up.

Energy is a valuable commodity no matter how rich you are or what you pay. Valuable considering the potential for short supply MANY MANY MANY generations down the line.

Folk who argue its up to them what water they heat and what they are willing to pay are just being short sighted to the future generations whom they wont even meet. They only care about themselves and their time here right now.

OK OK this extra wash time on an already shoddily built DW is detrimental BUT its our job right now to demand better goods that DO use resources more frugally and do so more reliably so they dont end up in land fill.

Not to whinge and moan about DW's using 12 litres instead of 120.

The manufacturers have this RIGHT.

Now as for the internal heating misunderstanding, Appliance manufacturers have started adding internal heaters so you can do away with wasteful hot water tanks not only saving you money as a bonus but to do away with their energy wasting.

That tank you have heats up, sits a while before you demand watern - perhaps over night or in the day while your at work, cools a bit, heats a bit , cools some more, heats again.
Lagging helps but your still cycling the heat on and off all the time wasting resources.

So before your water hits the DW its been heated and cooled potentially a few times. Very wasteful.

Now it cools in the pipework running to your DW, to be heated yet again.

Cold water fill eliminates this and along with your 110v heaters it needs extra time to also get to temp FIRST TIME rather than 3rd 4th or 5th perhaps.
This also benefits your Enzymes in the detergent helping them clean your dishes better.

I imagine traditional HW water tanks will go by the wayside now Combi/Instant demand boilers are getting better and better, more reliable. Quite rightly so,

We love ours and we have saved a fortune on gas bills - enough to pay for the boiler after 3 winters.

Its designed to last upward of ten years so after 6 it will have paid for its next replacement over our old water tank system.

We have worked hard enough for our money - giving it to XXXXpower is the last thing I want to do even if it is my choice to use litres and gallons more water.

Why when I dont have to?
 
p.s Phosphated and non phosphated user here.

No real preference as ive found no difference in performance over both types depending on brand.

Had phosphated dets that cant clean for toffee and has unphosphated that can.

Very much down to brand specifics!

Had 'green' label non phosphated that can clean away starch, grease, and protein but has left tannin stains and used 'phosphated' big brands and had them miss starch, grease, and proteins but rid tannins.

Its also been many ways round over the years.

Been thru them all I can tell you! Its so very variable out there,
 
I disagree with most of what you said.....
Even american machines use to heat their water, they just are smart enough to fill it already hot and start from an hotter point, an electric boiler for hot water would run wheter you use your dishwasher or not....so do not see any difference...it's not like you run a water heater just for a dishwasher...
Moreover, gas is way cheaper than electricity so filling water already hot whenever you have a gas boiler or even better a insta gas heater is more than advisable and cheaper...
In any case it allows extra time saving from machine having to heat it's water from cold....which is anyway appreciated...and that is a thing even sone european dishwasher now finally gives the possibility to do, know of some people who actually did that even before even if not advisable...
Water usage, every machine use the level of water that needs to get the job done, we could see like modern ones uses almost the half less they used to, and IMO and from what I could see and experience apparently with no good results, I have seen and used some american machines and regarding water usage are not much different than europeans, but for sure I can tell you here that they were no paragonable to any european model I have seen as they all provided clean dishes, a thing that I cannot see from long now coming out my european dishwashers.
All I could see in Europe from some years are machines that generally takes forever to wash a load, which motor pumps are weak and which water towers are paragonable to ones of a toy.....And that gives crappy results...
For the rest they are no much different from american ones... Say the least!
What's the matter with European technology? It's not that I do not understand it, I think I understand it very well, and for that I would like to stay away from it!
Dishwashers that use 12 liters and gives the best results known, from who???.... Where?????? please, give me one then! Because it's like 10 years that I am keeping changing machines, but every one is worse of the previous!
I pray every day to find one that does it's job, either it's me unlucky with machines, or do not know what to think, all I know is that with the machines I have used in the USA I never had a problem in matter of cleaning...
[this post was last edited: 4/21/2014-19:06]
 
My dishdrawers are connected to hot as well. I've got hot water on tap. Why should my dishwasher heat it from cold and use more power? Also the line run from the heater is short, so the hot water is almost instantaneous when I open the tap or turn on the dw. If one has to bleed the line the water doesn't have to go down the drain, it can go in a bucket and be used for the garden or whatever.

As for non-phosphate formulations, I have tried some of the other brands. Finish powder is my preference. I can't see anything on the current container that states that it contains phosphates now. My assumption is that it doesn't, since phosphates are now banned. With the other non-phosphate formulations that have those blue beads, there is always a sticky, blue residue that collects underneath the washarms and filter plate in places; not nice. Finish powder still does it for my flatware and cooking utensils.

As for banning phosphates from detergents, I think it's overkill. The phosphate content in cleaing products was already quite low, less than 5%. Since most people here live downstream 99% of river and lake pollution comes from agriculture and droughts, not detergents.

Some noisy action group forced our government to act on phosphates. They clearly thought that their emotional investment was more important than the facts on phosphate content in Australian detergents and their actual environmental impact. Some people here think that we are or should be part of Europe and ought to copy everything they do there regardless of whether it is pertinent to our conditions.
 
What some have to remember is that some of us have solar-heated water that is far cheaper to use than electricity in our Dishwashers...
So that includes me and my calculations above.

By the way Rapunzel, I'll get a picture of my Finish tabs "ingredient list" for you when I get back home.
I wonder if my supermarket is just receiving older stock?
 
While not exactly looking forward to the phosphate ban, I think it`s a step into the right direction. Eutrophication of the Baltic Sea still seems to be a major problem and food is already a "luxury" for too many in this world !

Maybe there will be a revival of phospates in cleaning products once phospates are recycled cheap and effectively from wastewater everywhere in Europe ?

I`ll use and enjoy them as long as availible but I think I won`t get myself a huge stockpile because I would be afraid that the somewhat limited shelf life of bleaches and enzymes might negate the benefits of the phosphates.
 
Okay washer111

Mine is Finish Advanced, 2xpowder concetrate, made in Korea. There is no ingredient list, only a statement about environmental info that says no chlorine bleach and that it contains biodegradable surfactants - that's all. Theoretically it could contain phosphates, but there is nothing to indicate that. There is no NP label on the bottle either.
 
Freddie the steer is to get away from using Tank water heaters or at least smaller ones for just supplying hot water to taps and faucets. Tanks of hot water are not needed half as much as anyone thinks.

This is where tankless water heaters come in so wonderfully, so little waste compared to a tank!

Appliances that heat their own water save even Tankless heaters heating water and it cooling thru the pipes on the journey to the machine.

Gas prices may be cheaper now but here they are getting close and closer and have done for sometime.

I cant vouch for the dishwasher thing, I have never experienced what you say even on cheaper low end machines. Honestly I can only see it being down to user error. Cant be franker than that.

If you have the DW connected to hot water and are purging it to get hot water you are totally negating the use of Enzymatic detergents which need to start in cold water and work up to hot.

And while its very shortsighted to believe the Government only thinks about Phosphates and your washing habits im pretty sure here its just the tip of the iceberg in what they do actually do.

Its just because you are passionate about it that it makes you feel this way but you really dont have to. Just go with the flow and be surprised.
 
I don't think I am shortsightened, I just say that for what concerns me I could see that there is a general race in going green, it's a fashion of nowadays, surely dictated by the fact that governments and international agreements decided to do something regarding pollution, co2 all that stuff...based on eco theories and policies that I do not really want to comment now...

So would not be strange they do a phosphate ban only for this reason, they do alot of silly decisions lately based on green policies...espcially in Europe which I consider the masters in silly decisions.. Even though USA is really keeping up thanks to the actual president in charge.

You see it in everything....for some cases they brought good things, for others just not, or anyway compromised them...

Regarding phosphates, again, I tell you that I go based on what I read, and can well see all they mention is about envioinment, if there is an iceberg down there about something else, they better tell clearly or shut up and avoid keeping blaming detergents in a very phatetical way...

I could experience phosphated detergents being better...I wish I could be okay even with dishwashing products w/out stpp as much as I am with laundry products, unfortunately to today, that's not the case...

Regarding hot water heaters, I really would not mind have a large one, bigger is better, and tell you again that if I could I'd be the first connecting my dishwasher to hot as IMO it saves time, and in certain circumstances even money!

Loss of heat in pipes is really not a problem for how I ses things,.....and sure plays a very little role in this...

Regarding enzymatic detergents, I tell you, I have used cold connected dishwashers all of my life, but as for everything, I don't care what is supposed to work best and when...but what I care about most of all of course are facts...results!

And a fact that I could experience in my life is that using a dishwasher that filled water already hot, ie an american model gave results I cannot really see an european dishwasher ever gave me... And faster!

As for everything, passion has really nothing to do with such matters, I am not even that passionate about dishwashers, but my thoughts and opinions are driven from what I could see and I always seek for the best, and preferentially I avoid compromise...I want the best I can afford!

Would be so beautiful, but I think that from theory and practice there is a huge sea in the middle....at least for me.

Again, I care about results i can see and touch, not theories, that's the only thing I care about...

Not saying and will never say I am absolutely right, as for everyone I do not have instruments to determine whatever is right....

But for sure can speak from what I have experience on my skin, others may have experienced differently, but nothing will keep me from saying my findings and related opinions.

I tried to follow as you say, and it is only been bad.... That's why I came to realize that speaking of appliances, vintage or "old school" means better, and eco means bad, and that's shy now I am looking for a vintage dishwasher, confident of the fact that it will work as I expect a dishwasher does, it will use more water? more electricity? I don"t care, I just want to finally open the machine and be sure that the stuff I am about putting away is really clean, without inspecting and eventually rewash part of the load..... A thing that from awhile I cannot do anymore...

If others gave the results, and other didn't I cannot really see how it may be my fault.....

Perhaps my fault is the logical will of not have to lay down for compromises, pretreat, presoak,prerinse etc...

Then what I have a dishwasher for?

[this post was last edited: 4/22/2014-06:23]
 
"If you have the DW connected to hot water and are purging it to get hot water you are totally negating the use of Enzymatic detergents which need to start in cold water and work up to hot."

 

This is actually false. At least in my house, the water is tempered to 50°C per government regulations - whilst this only applies to bathrooms, it isn't feasible in our house to alter the setup without significant inconvenience and stuffing around.

 

Therefore, the dishwasher gets that temperature intake. Since there is about a 30cm run of pipe from the main line (kitchen tap) to dishwasher tap, the detergent gets an initial flush with cold water, before it heats up to the hotter temperature.

If I enable the diagnostic temperature-sensing display, it actually only gives me about 5-10° on the original tub-temperature, depending on conditions, due to the thermal mass of the machine + dishes. So, if the machine is at 24° when starting, I typically only see about 30° by the end of the fill - giving about a 10-15 minute heating period on the machine. 

 

Many machines, including the Dishlex from our old home (2007 model) and the Bosch machine (1980's) I used in Norway heat the water to the desired temperature BEFORE releasing the detergent - so on those machines, purging the tap only saves time, energy and makes little difference to washing performance (if/when they are connected to hot). 

The DishDrawer has a flow-thru detergent dispenser, so "hitting" the detergent with really hot water (probably more than 60°) would hurt the enzymes - then again, modern enzymes are designed for higher temperature washing anyway, so it doesn't matter all that much. 

 

The other "issue" you could describe is enzyme activity at colder temperatures. We all know that fat doesn't dissolve into the water readily at lower temperatures, and the activity of enzymes does tend to decrease at cold temperatures. So starting at cold inlet and heating into their most active zone (Around body temperature, to somewhere around 55-60°) isn't going to yield better results, except for soaking heavier soils. 

 

FYI, I never have trouble with cleaning, even when purging the taps. I'd rather save my $20 or so per-annum than use it heating water and potentially not even reaching the target temperatures (I've "caught" the machine doing this on heavy - where it has to heat from cold - 65° in short time, always in the final rinse. It will "cut" the heating at about 55° on cold inlet, but will always reach the temperature on Hot inlet). 
 
Freddie cut the anti government stuff and look into what it means before you post.

Its actually a great idea.

Its tempered water to stop mentally frail people and children SCALDING themselves while bathing or washing their hands.

Dosnt mean they get legionaires disiese as its tempered near the source I believe.

In the 1970's a baby died because of falling into a bath of scalding hot water - perhaps if all hot bathroom taps were tempered worldwide things like this wouldnt happen.

And before you give the 'its the parents fault' crap just remember what you got upto as a child and how easy it was for you to hide from your parents.
 
Just so everyone knows I'm not bluffing :)

Finish Quantum Lemon 20+10 bought about 2 weeks ago to replace Fairy Platinum (like Cascade Complete Pacs) with equal amounts of Phosphate. At least these don't have gel that will dissolve and wreck the other pacs!

washer111++4-22-2014-06-54-35.jpg
 
No, the government doesn't determine the temperature of our water - only how hot it comes out at Bathroom taps (Not laundry/kitchen ones). Although in MY experience, you can still be scalded at 50° - maybe just my "delicate" hands :P

 

What I scoff at is how our water heaters cannot be set below 60° due to "Legionella risk," if that was so, why do people in the U.S. get to turn theirs down to 48°? 

The bug is only a risk at temperatures below about 45°!

And of course, to top it off, the manufacturer of our Solar-Water Heater "recommend" people leave the electric booster ON (wasting power) to ensure the Government Mandate is met, and the water doesn't get "too cold."

(I'll scan that too, if ANYONE is wondering). 
 
"how our water heaters cannot be set below 60°"

That must be new. Mine has holiday mode where it only keeps the pilot light on and about 5 or six different temp settings.
 
I was surprised too...

 

I found it out researching Electric vs. Heat-Pump. Vs. Solar... Seems Electric doesn't go colder than 60°, Heat-Pump not warmer than 55°, generally and Solar, well, that depends on the Sun and whether you leave the booster on or not. Since I've got some time, I'll fish that manual out tomorrow and see what AU/NZ Standard that is meant to be. I did post a *rant mode* thread last year when the system was installed... So you could search that too!

 

Of course, I guess the "official" settings on a heater might be counted, not "Holiday" modes that save energy. Who knows?
 

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Europe phosphate regulations- all STPP out within 2016 in DW products?
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