Europe phosphate regulations- all STPP out within 2016 in DW products?

[kenmoreguy89]

A great idea FOR YOU! I exactlly know what it means and really do not need you to explain it for me, Believe it or not I got a brain! thank you!
From awhile have been invented mixing valves, this does not prevent you to make a different line before it supplying washer and dishwasher, and the other line supplying taps...
Also I heard of taps who have one already incorporated...
Since one may have childrens or not, this does make the government able to tell me how water must be hot in my house...NEVER! And it is just absurd!
And just for you to know, I grew up in an house where water from the taps gets out at 60 degress, I never and say never got a scald, even when I was a child, just because I was smart enough to set tap to the proper temperature...
And yes, if that is happened in the 70s that was parents fault...not because they may have missed the survelliance of the child, but because they didn't take due precautions, ie lower themselves the water heater if they got a dumb child....
It's not that because a couple parents have been, let's say negligent they should make mandatory for all...

 

[aquarius1984]

Freddie your attitude stinks,

You reference to having a dumb child is foul mouthed.

YOu make no reference to older people with mental issues, perhaps its their fault if they scauld themselves too while living independantly?

You honestly dont know how lucky you are .really.

 

[aquarius1984]

Its is mandatory for BATHROOMS where you only wash your body. Bathrooms where children can access and use themselves - with their own dignity!

Not Kitchens where you need hot water to dissolve grease and clean.

Setting the water heater lower means the kitchen wont be hot enough!

 

[aquarius1984]

Mixer taps still require a user to put their hands under to see how hot it is.

Scauld waiting to happen.

The water is thermostatically tempered before it gets to the tap.

Reuces the risk of a scauld to a child/infirm/elderly.

Quite simple really.

 

[kenmoreguy89]

I have understand it is for bathrooms now that it has been pointed out! THANK YOU FOR NOTHING!
Sounded like you had to keep water supply always that down everyhwere and in any circumstances...
I made a question.... That if so would have been kind of crazy, infact!
Then you came in....you are the one that should cut if the only thing you care about is discredit me, just because we have different opinions.
The matter of elderlies and invalids apllies to the one of the child...it is anyway not fair that a government would tell me assuming that... THIS IS WHAT I WAS SAYING! BUT THERE WAS A SIMPLE EXPLANATION!
Since first I have started using the bathroom alone, so washing my hand etc...I was teached by my parents to set taps in order to not get water too hot, and so I kept doing...if a child do otherwise is dumb, if it really so little to do not understand it, the parents should look after, and here comes their fault.
In any ways is silly a government mandates it for everyone and everywhere in the house, but since that is not the case, can we just go ahead???? Or you wanna drive the conversation further? The question was not even to you, so just mind your business ok?[this post was last edited: 4/22/2014-08:07]

 

[aquarius1984]

I saw no name to the question on a public forum so i assumed anyone could answer and explain why seeing as you originally portrayed you didnt know why water in a bathroom is tempered.

If you did know the answer I have no idea why you asked the question.

 

[kenmoreguy89]

p.s for mixer I meant safety valves that are usually placed next to a water heater pipe outtake that mix water automatically in order to do not provide water too hot, they also makes taps like these now...
Not for sure a mixer tap...
You think you are that smart, or either others to be stupid.... Don't you?

 

[aquarius1984]

Feddie dont back track.

Those mixer taps are exactly what we were talking about with the mandates.

You know that and the way your conversation has gone demonstrates that exactly,

I dont need to be smart, it dosnt suit anyone.

Not even you.

 

[kenmoreguy89]

It is not much who replies to a question, but HOW IT REPLIES, you assumed it was a critic for the government, and said to "cut" cut what? It it was just a question. As you can see, washer 111, the one who the question was direct to, immediately replied pointing that it is only for bathrooms, which makes a little more sense than the whole house as I previously thought, which was absurd....and it was the exact reply I was looking for, without nonsense explanations or assumptions of any kind added....but you looked so much for them purposedly, don't you?

 

[kenmoreguy89]

No dear, I meant exactly that type of valves! Otherwise I'd have said mixer taps, and not valves!
Also, if it was as you think the speech I made about making a different line to washer and before the valve would not have had sense!
Then believe what you want.....

 

[aquarius1984]

Time to get your facts straight.

I responded directly after you asked about the government.

GO back and look!

Rapunzel has made no comments about water temp. Just his tank settings.

I explained it to you as to why its not the government dictating. Its mandated bathroom water temps for good reason.

I explained long before anyone else psted.

YOur attitude about governments is getting boring. Sure there's bad things but they implement alot of great things to help people.

Wake up and smell the coffee with more of an open mind.

Having just spent 4 years worrying about a Grandparent with Alzheimers and dementure who would of given up on his life had he been put into a home to lose his independance - keeping him in his OWN home safely with hot water that wont scauld him in the bathroom yet be hot enough to clean dishes in the kitchen would of been a great bonus.

Same with his gas appliances.

I cant believe im having to spell it out that children with learning difficulties CAN be capable of going to the toilet, cleaning their own bottoms and washing their own hands with DIGNITY and PRIVACY yet dont understand the dangers of hot water is so hard for you to grasp.

Grow up Freddie and stop whinging!

 

[kenmoreguy89]

No, actually not.
Washer 111 said this
"least in my house, the water is tempered to 50°C per government regulations", I assumed all the house in asutralia needs to have always water no more than 50 degrees in any circumstances, may it be kitchen or laundry...which was kind of absurd!
So here I made my question...
You came with your first reply with stupid assumptions you could have easily kept for yourself because they were of no help...a simple reply, only for bathrooms would have been enough! And that's what washer 111 said!
That's it, you are the one who raised problems PURPOSEDLY , you are the one who should grow up and stop acting pathetically!

 

[aquarius1984]

You dont like me explaining why?

You dont like me explaining why on a PUBLIC forum so that any other readers who might not know or understand why bathrooms only have tempered water?

How did I know you would know the reasons why?

Its called a conversation, its called sharing knwoledge.

My post wasnt just for you it was for EVERYBODY.

Anyway im thru wasting my time on you. Goodbye.

 

[washer111]

Yes Freddie, BUT, I mentioned further in that sentence it only applies to the Bathroom areas (Ensuites, Bathrooms, Half-Bathrooms, WHATEVER you wish to call it)...

PERHAPS further when children are involved. 

 

I'll not mince words here, if it were AT ALL feasible to temper only the supply to the bathroom, we probably would've. But the tight space where the plumbing splits between the Kitchen/Laundry and Bathrooms is too tight, and the risk of flooding, damage if something bad happens too great. 

Keep it on the roof, temper the whole house. Yes, I object, but I live with it quite happily. We don't have any TL or FL machines that require very hot inlet anyhow, so no harm hey? 

BESIDES - Modern machines throw error codes if you give them water thats too hot for their liking... 

 

As for Kids or the Elderly, lapses in attention happen. Those who might not be in full possession of their faculties might not react the way other people might when presented with this situation, and instead choose to freeze or do something else out of the ordinary, hurting themselves even more. 

Parents/Carers might loose concentration for that moment, and the damage is done. No, you can't fix stupid, but even good parents will slip up on occasion.

In most instances, better to be safe than sorry.  

 

Here's my "rant" from last year too - Note for member Rapunzel, you can see the Government literature attached by Ronhic at the end of the thread. http://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?46620

 

That post should give you all the background on my "opinions" on this... Lest I post it again!

I too will bow down now - I think this might be getting towards a personal level, and I'd hate to see that happen. 

 

[kenmoreguy89]

No I like you explaining why, I just didn't like all the assumptions you made, you telling me to "cut" and keeping making problems purposedly in order to make my appear as an idiot....
So please, avoid "the posts are for everyone " blah blah blah...
They were meant for everyone in order to make me appear a fool, purposedly not getting the point of what I was saying, driving the conversation where you wanted to drive it!
When it was a simple question washer 111 replied straight to the point, but you wanted it to happen!
You did that purposedly hoping to make all the troubles you raised, as attempt to make me appear bad!
That's it! Attempt failed!

 

[rapunzel]

My house is older and I've got gas hot water. I've had a new burner installed in my tank two years ago. If I turn the dial to the highest setting it actually goes above 60 degrees, which is not necessary and can be potentially dangerous. On the medium setting it goes to 60 degrees and since I don't have individual temp controllers in my bathrooms I was concerned that the little ones might get hurt. A few years back I accidentally put the hot water on my little nephew once. Luckily he didn't get hurt, but that incident scared the tihs out of me. My hot water is set on 50 and that works fine. When it gets cold I might turn it up a bit, but during summer it doesn't need to be hotter.

 

[mich]

I don't have anything to say...

About Water. But.. I'll say this about Detergent. 

 

I like my Phosphate Laden Detergents, and will continue to use them. I will admit though, I know that Finish Quantum would blow mine out of the water, no question about it. However, I will say though, Finish Quantum, is close to .50 - .75 cents a load where I live, and that's just not in my price range. I can use my Phosphate Laden CC Powder, for about a nickle a load. 

 

There's no question about it though. Finish Quantum, can & will, blow CC out of the water. However, if you compare old Cascade Powder to New Cascade Powder, I will say the difference is far more than noticeable. Same goes for the Gel Pacs, and Gels themselves. None of them are ever going to perform as well, as they once did without the Phosphates. 

 

I don't do bob loads. I don't. I'd imagine, our dishwasher is considered 75% full on average, when I run a load. And to be quite honest, I don't wanna spare the cost of Quantum. Our dishes aren't that dirty or soiled, and there's no way for me to justify the cost & expense of it, when the old stuff works just fine.

 

I'll probably eventually switch to Phosphate Free Detergents, although, I'll continue using (the phosphate laden) them, as long as I can still purchase them, on an economical level. 

 

[foraloysius]

Quite a lot of posts, but a lot of them are off topic. We were talking about phosphates. I will add a few facts though.

I have never seen or used a European dishwasher that dispensed the detergent after the water being heated. Certainly not a Bosch. Don't know about the Dishlex though, I'm not familiar with them. I would be interested in the model # of the Bosch, want to ask my repairman about it.

A water heater needs to be set to 60 degrees Celcius/140 degrees Fahrenheit to avoid the hot water system build up legionella. However, how bigger the percentage of chlorine bleach in drinking water, the lower you can set the water heater. The Netherlands has very little chlorine bleach in it's drinking water, in the USA the percentage is higher. That's why it is less risky to set the water heater to a lower temperature in the USA than in the Netherlands.

Enzymes. It is true that enzymes work only at lower temperatures. Actually enzymes are living organisms that have their maximum effect around 37 degrees Celcius. On higher temperatures they loose their cleaning effect and around 60 degrees they are totally gone. I added a scheme for the effect of enzymes and temperatures. If we are going to loose phosphates in dishwasher detergents (some US states and Canada have banned them way before Europe) it's best to use an enzyme based detergent. Then it is better to start with cold water than use hot water from the tap. If you want to use tapwater, it is better to search for a chlorine bleach based detergent like the older type American dishwasher detergents.

 

[joe_in_philly]

Here is some interesting information about temperatures related to Legionella.

http://lifehacker.com/whats-the-best-temperature-for-my-water-heater-1465372005

 

[kenmoreguy89]

Do not want to contraccept anyone, am not a chemistry, even though I know quite enough about alimentar chemistry it is not the same of detergents...so take it as it comes,,,
I wonder if really it does not depend on the type of enzyme, while surely as it happens while baking our doughnut or bread will not rise anymore after it reached a temerature ( yeast simpky dies) I assume enzymes being living organisms ie fungus, just like yeast will die the same way, but perhaps certain types of enzymes just can stand an higher temp than others?
That's a question...
I could read several times online that enzymes in detergent are supposed to function optimally in a range from 20 to 60 degrees celsius (140 f)....
So we have Louis chart saying a thing, and other sources saying another, well, not like if it is totally different though, the drop of enzyme activity in Louis' graphic occurs over 60 more like 65 degrees, .all I can do is wondering that maybe does not apply to all the enzymes the fact of 60 degrees, enzyme is kaput...maybe some are more resistant?
Also...
I never had a problem getting rid of enzymatic stains in my GE washer, It fills water about 65 and even 70 degrees in low demand hours and after i prime the pipes for 20 seconds, and keeps it at temp for at least 10 minutes, even more if i prime the tub also.........but always had good results from enzimatic stains so I suppose they can stand the temp...
Who knows?

( page 3).

In any ways...as we are speaking of dishwashers...
I think that a dishwasher is really not like a washer, and that in that specific case you have water laying flat in a large tub thus losing part of it's heat, supposing an upcoming temp of 60 degrees I think enzymes in detergents are not much affected, not because of the enzyme type that is another matter that deserves more investigation, but bevause hardly they will be hit and dissolved in water that hot to denaturate them, so you have them active actually for a portion of the wash till heater kicks on and temperature rise...

[this post was last edited: 4/22/2014-15:35]