Europe phosphate regulations- all STPP out within 2016 in DW products?

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kenmoreguy89

kenmoreguy89

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HiI all, have just read a thing that terrorize me just to think of it, within 2015 all dishwashing detergents for domestic use in europe will come without STPP, but that's already happened in the US with pretty disastrous effect even though mitigated by institutional products discovery and pretty readily available pure stpp, but what scares me is that within 2016 they want to take them out even from all of commercial/institutional products.
I could see that in the US that is happening with Institutional cascade also, but as our dear Michael (Mich) posted in a thread P&G quickly found a stratagem to keep selling the good stuff as a fryer cleaner. BTW I could see bubble bandit keeps selling the stuff indisturbed why Bubble bandit no and cascade stopped even the posphate laden institutional DW peoduct?

And in Europe....
How they gonna do??? Actually I seriously hope that within 2016 I have already got te a$$ outta here, really I am getting mad in here cannot stand Italy and Europe anymore, so either I get outta here or I will finish tightened to a wall in a mad house...
Sticking to the Stpp problem
Cannot help but think that unlike in the USA, is hard to find places where to buy STPP over here, at least easily...
And EU dictators bitches up there in Bruxelles, stubborn as they are in these green BS are probably going to regulate severely and maniacally, not to mention that for these kinds of secondary unimportant regulations in Europe they tend to get pathetically knobsticks-like at making them respect, while about the important things nobody cares really of, I think they'll be hard times finding something containing it even in other forms...so gimmicks will be hard to be done by companies...
Also, I wonder of the sorts of the brands...Finish is #1 over here...
We can see how in the USA they pulled over the electrasol brand not to ruin the name reputation, naming it Finish, i wonder if they are gonna do the same here with Finish/neophos turning to electrasol then?

They'll be hard times......And not sure how it will end like...

Any thoughts?
 
"And another one bits the dust," is all I can think of here... 

 

We're still blessed with Phosphates here in Australia, but only in dishwashing detergents. Some "Eco-Nazi's" got it mandated out of laundry stuff (I think Radiant has basically discontinued its phosphate-line - although I couldn't tell any difference, TBH). 

 

Perhaps I ought to open a web-store and sell Australian Finish?
 
Stop the bitching already. There are limited resources of phosphates in the world and most resources are in dubious countries. And as we need phosphates to grow food, the choice has been made all over the world to limite the use of phosphates as long as we are not able to recycle phosphates in a good and cheap manner. So, where ever in the world you go, you will find that phosphates will not be used in detergents anymore.
 
Don't worry. The currently available phosphate-free detergents are much better than when they first came out, and work better than the older phosphate detergents. I am using up my last container of phosphate cascade pacs, and I use them for smaller loads since they don't leave the dishes as shiny as the new phosphate-free detergents. I have medium-hard water, and my dishwasher doesn't have a water softener.
 
PCS Phospates are right here in Eastern North Carolina-the Southeast part of the US is rich in phospahte mining-so its out of detergents--BUT--did you realize you are DRINKING it in just about ANY soda drink?So---where does the phospate go after it leaves you???These phospate bans for cleaning products borders on silliness-again politicians poking there noses where they don't belong.Watch the PCS trains go by my place daily.
 
The fact that trains with the stuff pass your place daily doesn't say a thing about the upcoming shortage. We've not run out yet, but will in the future if we are not careful. China is one of the countries with huge resources, but they are keeping it to themselves.

In the middle ages people used urine to do laundry. Now if only we could make a filter to get the phosphate out of urine. You could have your own STPP factory!
 
Not to contracept anyone on a subject about which I know next to nothing, but if phosphates were the new platinum howzcome we buy them off the web for $5 a pound? Isn't the phosphate thing all just eco-knotzies?

We can't get fullsize persian limes since a month ago for ANY price. THAT's a shortage. Due to western drought filet mignon is now $20/lb and all other beef proportionally higher, THAT's a shortage. Just the forecast of a hurricane in the Gulf raises gas prices a dollar on a SPECULATIVE shortage that hasn't even happened yet.

And detergent prices have doubled as it is. The box that used to cost $6 is now $12. AFTER phosphates were removed.

Well nevermind me, I get grumpy around 3am waiting for I Love Lucy reruns to start.
 
It's not exactly like phosphates are no longer available next year, but it will happen in the next 50 years or so. Problems are not as big in the USA with it's own resources than in Europe, that has no resources at all. In the future phosphates in Europe might be still available, but it's apparent that prices will rise.
 
Can't argue with....

..."prices will rise". My car insurance just went up $70/yr and there's no shortage of car insurance. Nor have I filed a claim in 25 years with the company.
 
The trains coming from the PCS phospahte mine go North to New Jersey and such to the chemical plants.There is PLENTY of the stuff here.Same with in Florida,South Carolina-just about any Southeast state.We may use up the phospates faster in soft drinks than cleaning products.Its used as a preservative in the drinks.The mines here are one of the areas largest employers.I wouldn't worry about the mines going dry soon.And I see trains carrying fill material in the fill in ares that are mined out.There are also fossil hunts in the mines-they shut down for a day or so and let fossil hunters look for fossils of fish,shells,other sea life.The mine even has a fossil museam.Some of the largest dragline excavators work in these mines.The draglines dig to expose the phospate containing veins.Then when the phosphate is mined out-the fill dirt is put in the restore the area.The mines are in swampy places.
 
I start with the premise that my DW sucks, but could clearly see the difference by using products containing phosphatss and ones that does not...
So I think I am prone to claim my phosphates any day if this will happen, I think in the USA this problem has been felt greatly than maybe it will be in europe since dishwasher in the US didn't always had a built in water softener like about every model of european ones instead had, we could all see how dishwasher detergent in the USA were formlated to give perfect results even in hard water, moreover there were also pure Stpp additives such as Finish glass magic one could add to enhance cleaning power and shiny results, probably the lack of phosphates in DW products in the US has been felt greatly than how it may be elsewhere..Including the fact that too less time was given to detergent makers to find alternative ingredients (that IMO still does not exist)...and resulted in bad mineral depositating problems other than inferior poor cleaning abilities of these new versions.
But for what concerns europe, I could experience the same and could see how the phosphate free detergents I have used didn't give good or acceptable results to me in matter of cleaning, so I am one of the many ones who will probably and eventually seek desperately ways to keep using phosphated products...
Louis, sorry you see this as bitching, really is not, please respect others points of view, you know I am used to say what I think always....expressing an opinion should never been exchanged for bitching.....and even if were so please accept someone may not agree, is legitimate and I don't think people would really waste time "bitching" if it was not a real peoblem...no?
Said this, I cannot really say anything about the scarcity on phosphates in Europe for sure, all I could read is that it is done because of enviroinmentally reasons and pollutioning beliefs, nothing mentioned about this....but only the old story of phosphates in detergents as responsible for the "fertilization" of algaes in the waters, altering the water eco-system...
If so, I think it would have been wiser telling the truth....if what you say is the truth, not only the enviroinmentally side...
You know, the primar source of phosphates "pollutioning" of water does not come from detergents, but from farming....
Regarding other countries Louis, I see in Asia, South america and africa, the stuff is still present in detergents, but I suppose this phosphate ban will reach them too sooner or later...
I don't think this is a matter of costs though, From what I can see instead phosphated products are cheaper or same prices than ones without them also, over here even the cheaper store brand one has them still...
If there would really be a threat about them not being " naturally" available anymore in a next future, I think detergent manufacturers would be more insterested on their own, about this, I mean in finding alternative stuff, but I could see they are rather pushed to do so by governments, and for them is just a nuisance giving no few problems and extra costs for researches in reformulations etc...that otherwise they'd have never started on their own...
But again, these regulations being caused by a prevision a future shortage, as you say,is a reason I've never read,till now....not saying it is not true...it's just news to me and sure deserves further investigation...till now all i could read is about enviroinment only, so I speak accordingly.
 
As for those claims about "Save the Environment," they are WAY out of line!!!

 

Did you know that domestic Phosphate output into the environment (from Laundering/Dishwashing) equates to a percentage value below 10?*

 

That is, the majority is out-put by CARELESS industry:

~ Farmers who think fertiliser is the Be-All and End-All, and haven't heard of properly calculating fertiliser quantities, or other means of improving the soil

Case in Point, this occurred at my family's farm - we managed to improve the soil far better with Lime and much less fertiliser, than with fertiliser alone. Less cost, less environmental impact and better yield from some pretty easy calculation. 

 

~ Mega-Corporations who don't give a damn about anyone or anything, only profits. 

 

The other issue is DOMESTIC fertiliser application where people live near major waterways, and again, over application of fast-releasing products, rather than slow-release products is the issue.

 

Ultimately, this problem stems from negligence (or carelessness, if you like). NOT laundering products. 

 

*AFAIK, when they banned Phosphates in detergent in Washington DC, apparently the rivers surrounding didn't clear up, as a result of industry (farms/factories) upstream continuing their output. Go figure, right? Industry = Problem, so Change for Average-Joe = Solution. 
 
Goodness, where do I start...

Wikipedia gives some more information about phosphates:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphate

You can read there what countries have phosphate mines. No mines in Europe and some mines in countries that are political not the most stable.

As for environmental issues, phosphates never were the cause of polluting rivers. Phosphates will however increase grow of algae in standing water, especially when they disturb the balance in such waters. Yes, there are a lot of phosphates in other things than detergents. Phosphates in detergent were probably not the main cause of it. But filtering phosphates out of waste water would be a good thing. Now if only there would be a cheap way to recycle phosphates. It would be such a good thing to put them back in detergent then, because they work so much better than the alternatives like zeolites.
 
Goodness where do I start..... Calm down Louis! :) LOL
Thanks You for the link, really this is the classical debate about sources, , there's who says that they will last for 300 years, others just 100... Etc...
Really do not know what to think......or take for certain here, except factual stuff like lack of mines in Europe...
Again, didn't put in discussion your statement about Europe not having own mines, but I just talk based on what I read around, and what you say absolutely didn't appear to be the main concern for which is done... At least apparently..
Just take as example this EU press release (is in italian, google translate will help)
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-11-1542_it.htm
Always and only about enviroinmental pollution aspects, kinda like if detergents were the only responsible...
Like these countless out there...

I really think that if it is as you said, would be very more wiser that they let the people know of this, and not just screaming around regarding enviroinment only, and again, pointing fingers on detergents.
No one I have read ever stated that this is made to preserve phosphates sources...which is a fact that would shut up possible controversies about phosphate pollutioning responsability, letting them passz z for second...
Do not know where europeans gets the stuff, but until now it didn't appear to be a problem to be gotten..... Nor apparently seems will be in a next future...this always accordingly to what one can read around and the reasons why they said they're gonna take out phosphates, which looks are others...
Go figure!

[this post was last edited: 4/18/2014-17:51]
 
I'm pretty sure the Finish powder I buy from Costco is now phosphate free. I am still pretty happy with it. Dishes come out clean and they even squeak when I rubb my finger accross. Unlike some of those other dw detergents with the blue stuff, it doesn't leave any sticky residue in the dishwasher.

As for washing detergents, I'm currently using Kirkland and some OMO that I bought out of curiosity. Both are phosphate free and my clothes are fine. I add a scoop of sodium percarbonate to towels and whites and I don't usually pre-treat either. Results are very good.
 
Excellent point-another thing about phosphate pollution-runoff from farms and yes,home lawns.Fertilizers have phosphates in them,too-unregulated.Its said most of the fertilizer applied to farm feild and lawns is lost to runoff after watering and rain.The runoff ends up as pollution in rivers,streams,lakes and such.Nothing is said about this from the nosey politicians!I don't use fertilizers on my lawn-nor weed and insect killers-so my lawn is sparse and weedy--the mower just cuts it all to the same height!!The clippings,leaves,and such make my "fertilizer" just use the mulching blades on my mower.Farmers around here do the same by bushhogging or flail mowing the feild before plowing.The mowing shreds the old crop.Next they "disc" it-the disc harrow chops the stuff more and mixes it in the ground.The discing also destroys underground insect grubs.
 
Interesting point you make Rapunzel... Last I checked, the MSDS was updated late 2011, and still had Phosphates. I couldn't find that document tonight, but I checked my current 1KG bottle of Lemon 2X Concentrate. 

 

Under the small headline "Environmental Information," the sheet says "FINISH contains no Chlorine Bleach. FINISH surfactants are bio-degradable."

(It doesn't say that exactly - I've probably minced words. But thats the general "gist" of things). 

No "Phosphate-Free" labels either. 
 
The owner of our local appliance store told me that his customers are getting decent results, even with low-water-use late-model dishwashers, and the new no-phosphate DW detergent, but the key seems to be priming the hot water line (using the sink faucet) to ensure the hottest possible first rinse water. Most machines do not heat the first rinse water, so the temp of the incoming water "is" the first rinse temp. With lower water use, priming is more crucial, since the amount of water taken in for first rinse is by itself not enough to prime the hot water line.
 

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Europe phosphate regulations- all STPP out within 2016 in DW products?
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