Europe phosphate regulations- all STPP out within 2016 in DW products?

Automatic Washer - The world's coolest Washing Machines, Dryers and Dishwashers

Help Support :

You're completely right about that PassatDoc.

 

I always make it "my business" to prime the Dish-Drawer before starting, and anywhere between 16 and 42 minutes later (depending on cycle) for the rinses. Although, your incoming water temperature to the machine will be tempered (either Up or Down), depending on how hot the machine was to start with. 

 

I prefer to prime the lines, since it saves quite a lot of money with Aussie power rates. Maybe not so much elsewhere, but still good for the environment!

There is really no difference in cycle times on the shorter cycles with primed water lines... (At least on the drawers)
 
I run the hotwater before starting the dishwasher-my water heater is in a gartage utility room so it has a little way to go-when I take a shower-have to run the water for a few minutes before it gets hot.
 
I bought it new on ebay about 2 years ago now, not sure about the actual year though, it is MOL model, # sgs23e02 eu and deeply repent the purchase. it is worse than the chinese made ones I had before it at washing and materials, is really filmsey, it litterally swings if i push one side of it...could not believe it when I pulled it out of the box...
Anyway, the elettrozeta, haier, whirlpool, zoppas and rex I had before, all of them used to have an heated warm prewash, about 30-40 degrees...
[this post was last edited: 4/20/2014-14:56]
 
To say the truth, when I had the Zoppas ans Rex, that had an electromechanical programmer, we were usual to skip the prewash and run immeditaely the main wash....results were just the same as if I had run the prewash..
The Rex we had from 1986 to 2000 something, used to give good washing results till it died (motor), then we got a zoppas it was a little inferior at cleaning and sometimes a little traces were left back, the zoppas only lasted 4 years, then we got the Elettrozeta (chinese made) and was not so good at washing, so I wanted it changed, So I got a whirlpool and it has been really a disappointment (on par with the Haier that came after the whirlpol), the whirpool lasted just few days after the 2 yrs warranty expired ( the heater, placed in the pump pipe got broken)..
I was short of money so I got a cheap haier...
After the Haier that I dumped for desperation, came the bosch...which is even crappier...
Now I kinda use it as pot cupboard....I wash my stuff by hand most of the times, seeking desperately a dishwasher worth to be called so...
[this post was last edited: 4/20/2014-17:25]
 
I don't much bother priming the line before I start the DW. If the water is hot that's ok, if it's not the cold prewash doesn't make much difference to outcome quality that I can see.

However I usually put a small amount of powder in the pre wash cup so that greasy water is not spraying all over the place and running through the insides of the DW.

Lately I have been using a cycle without a prewash...nothing but the main wash, 2 rinses and dry about 3.18 gallons of water and everything seems clean. I like this cycle because it only takes about 1 hour 40 minutes. So starting from a cold main wash doesn't matter either. I don't know how bad this is on my electric costs but my bill has been decreasing every month so I feel good.

I've been using non phosphate Finish Quantum tabs and I get excellent results so if you guys in Europe have this available it will probably work well for you too.
 
kenmoreguy89 et all re tsp stpp and phosphates

First off kenmoreguy89 I sure hope it never comes to that with you tied to the wall in a mad house, how would you be able to post to AW?!!! For your next DW you might try a single drawer FisherPaykel with water softener,steel outer cabinet,plastic resin interior, I've used mine, no softener, 9 years so far, no problems but I disconnect the switched power outlet between uses to protect circuit boards from surges. While I knew fertilizers were made from mined phosphate deposits and overfertilized agricultural and residential lawn runoff is mostly responsible for lake and stream eutrophication? pardon my lack of knowledge but is it correct that TSP and STPP are manufactured from these same phosphate deposits? I have soft water and still using my supply of phosphate DW detergent but presuming most EU and Australian DW have water softeners is it true most/some new DW formulas are poorer performing irrespective of water hardness? Well ok, PassatDoc and washer111 have good results IF they first prime the hot water line-is that the solution again irrespective of DW with/without softener? Which phosphate-free powders have you found to be good both in soft and hard water?
 
Rapunzel is right - we don't have softeners on most machines, since it really isn't necessary in most of the denser-populated areas of the country (excl. Parts of Perth and Adelaide. The former has "varying" hardness, depending on the source of the water. BUT its generally quite soft).

 

As the DishDrawer is of "European Descent" (in that Aussie/Kiwi {New-Zealand}) machines are capable of cold water intake), it doesn't require water-line priming or hot intake, as U.S. Member 'Dadoes' has pointed out previously. 

I prefer to that to save what amounts to about $20 in electricity yearly (Daily use on Delicates cycle {50°C Wash, 60° Rinse). The savings increase either as the machine is used more or when hotter cycles are used. With power rates going up, I presume that will now be a higher value, since I calculated that figure back in 2012, before the world ended.
 
"before the world ended"

Where there is an end there should also be a new beginning.
smiley-wink.gif
 
This new-beginning must be the removal of those Phosphor-Laden detergents from "The Old World..."

That can wait until I exhaust the current "stash" of detergent 
smiley-tongue-out.gif
 
Tied to the wall in a mad house....
LOL.....that's not because of phosphates ban for sure, but is for so many reasons of which this phosphate ban adds to....but really phosphate ban is nothing compared to it all.
I would raise matters belonging to the dirty laundry forum if I say all the things that are driving me mad and that I think I cannot stand stand anymore about Italy and Europe, just saying that I could see that this country was already very bad back then and during ghe time it only had disadvantages in joining the EU and Euro, and everyone can see how this country now has lost it's authority to make the own business at home with the EU fascists telling what we should or shouldn't do at our home and killing the country identity and economy...
But this is not completely fault of Europe anyway, but of italian politicians that are all sold and care about their pockets, instead of country's future....and, eventually of italians that are all about complaining about it but no facts, the truth is that they do not even have skills to understand why everything is so bad...
Returning to the phosphate speech, it's clear how phosphates works better than alternative ingredients such as zeolites or policarboxilates, while I cannot say that it has been a great problem with laundry products I could experience it was instead so with dishwashing products...
I could experience generally that products without them used to give inferior results in cleaning more than else, and reduced shining results and spots on stainless and glass...
Have to be honest though in saying that phosphate products does not always means better, the proof is told by the fact that I have recently tried in a few loads some dishwasher tabs I got at the discount, they had phosphates, but results have been quite disappointing in cleaning.... So do not want to pass the wrong message that whenever there are phosphates you can be sure a product is better, but on a general scale I could experience that products with phosphates performed better and gave results that no phosphate free product ever did...
It's incontrovertible how in the USA it has been a problem for many, while some people didn't notice any differene for others instead it has been a huge problem, that can be related on so many aspects....but if it wasn't so, you wouldn't have had cases like bubble bandit saying "it's not your dishwasher, but your detergent without Stpp" or many people racing for institutional phosphate laden products finally getting again the results they were used to get...
Didn't want to drive the discussion in a political one, even though I realize it is kind of impossible to do not come to talk about governemnt decisions...
While I can see this phosphate ban may be the joy of some Eco maniacs people, I cannot accept how they claim that by doing so they're going to get rid of the phosphate problem in rivers, lakes etc...
When we can see, their presence it is only minimally or anyway greatly inferior compared to ones imputable to farming, fertilizing or other sources...This is not much fair....
It is not even fair, other than smart, keeping blaming them and play the card of enviroinment whenever one wants to take them off detergents in prevision of a future shortage or increase in the price....
Why not say the truth then?

Again, if it wasn't for Louis, this is a thing I couldn't really read anywhere and hear...

[this post was last edited: 4/21/2014-11:10]
 
P.s.. I can see how priming the line may help to get cleaner results in a hot fill dishwasher of course...but I don't believe this may always be enough to avoid disappointing results....
I think it really plays a marginal role in it, sure, as for washers for which is surely and absolutely more important this is an operation that of course needs to done in certain circumstances, would surprise me if there were people not realizing it...
But of course there are, and unfortunately nowadays more than they used to be....[this post was last edited: 4/21/2014-06:27]
 
I'm not exactly sure...

What Joe is smoking? In my experience, those phosphate laden Cascade Action Pacs, leave dishes significantly more shiny, and gleaming than the Phosphate Free Complete Pacs. 

 

The Complete Pacs, leave lots of Water Spots (if rinse aid isn't added) and... I can tell dried on Food doesn't come off as well, as it used to with the Complete Powder & Just the regular Action Pacs. I can say they work (if you do add the expensive, chemical laden rinse aid, but... you really shouldn't have to, tbh)

 

Although, it really doesn't matter. Europe's Problem, is the water there is like 4x harder than it is, in the united states. Here most people don't ever even get near 7-8 GPG, but there, its quite the norm for 20-30 to be considered "average" while, 30-50 grains, can even be observed in some harder water areas. Even with Water Softeners, built in to dishwashers themselves, I still don't see the detergent working out so well. Phosphates are the only ingredient that can grab onto water minerals, and suspend them, so residues dont redeposit, if you take those away, and replace them with carbonate & polymers chemicals, I just see a recipe for disaster, esp in extremely hard water areas. 

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I want to make the point, of making this really, really clear. Detergents, have always been, and always will be better with Phosphates. Phosphates are a Builder, and there the best at what they do, and always will be. They grab onto water minerals, they trap & suspend dirt & grease, and they work with Enzymes to increase alkalinity. 

 

Consumer Reports, has repeatedly said over & over, that NONE of the phosphate free detergents, have the same power as those that did before. Although, some *do* come close, though, such as the Finish Quantum & Cascade Complete. 

 

One thing I that I think, we'll very much be noticed, is Phosphates get the job done, in much less time. With Phosphate Detergents, I can run our Dishwasher on "Normal" and everything will come off, and be really clean. When I use Phosphate Free, that just doesn't happen, I end up find myself, using a longer cycle such as Pots & Pans, or Smart Wash, because the Enzymes no longer have the ability to do there thing on a shorter wash. 

 

I'm sure, a lot will notice the difference. I sure did...
 
@ fisherpaykel

I have a hot-fill Bosch from 2001, so since it fills from the hot water line, and since the first rinse is not heated by the machine (i.e. incoming hot water line temp is your first rinse temp), it would make sense to get the incoming hot water as hot as possible (roughly 140 F for the average hot water tank heater).

I should clarify----I am still using phosphated Finish. When a rumor spread on this board several years ago about the impending national US removal of DW phosphates, I went to Costco and bought 4-5 canisters of Finish PowerBall tabs. There are 80-100 tabs per canister. Shortly thereafter, I was at friends' home for dinner and they mentioned that they didn't like Finish tabs in their KA DW because the soap dispenser was too shallow to close the door easily over the tablet (I think the older non-Powerball tabs worked ok for them, but the Powerball tab is thicker). When I mentioned I had no problem with Powerballs in my Bosch, they immediately bequeathed me 2 1/2 canisters of additional Powerballs, one canister being so old that it still said "Electrasol" on the label (but with individually wrapped/sealed tabs, still good for use). As a result, I probably am sitting on a five year supply of phosphated DW detergent.

However, I did ask our local appliance store owner about the change, since I am concerned that if the Bosch should ever suffer a catastrophic failure and cannot be repaired (so far, 13 years' service with no repairs or any issues at all), I would have to replace it with a new, lower-water-use model and I was concerned how these machines perform, particularly for people who didn't hoard Finish and who have to use the new detergent. He said the new machines will work with new detergents but that priming the line is essential. I have started priming the line before each use, even though I'm using the original machine, though I always had excellent results without priming for 13 years.

My washer/dryer are in the garage, and share a common wall with the DW and kitchen sink (typically American design with direct entry from garage to kitchen). I don't have a laundry sink, but can use the kitchen faucet to prime the hot water lines supplying the washer and DW. I generally do this before washing clothes, because my washer is a BOL 2006 Frigidaire FL (2140) without ATC. If I don't prime, "warm" can be pretty chilly, since it appears to mix incoming hot and cold lines 50:50 and that is "warm". For "hot" loads, I'll prime if I need it to wash at 140F, if not I don't prime and I end up with a compromise between warm and hot. However, if it is a full/absorbent load, the machine will add water 2-3 times to bring up the water level, and the water from those additions is primed/hot.

Board member Golittlesport taught me a second way to prime: start a "hot" cycle, wait until steam builds up on door window (indicative that the line is primed), hit Drain/Spin to empty the water, abort the cycle, then load clothes/soap and start the intended cycle. For me, it's easier to just walk a few feet to the kitchen and use the faucet to prime, but his method would be very useful in applications where there is no nearby faucet to prime.
 
Louis, I think I owe an apology or at least had to let you know, i have run the Bosch now, and could see that what I thought being a warm prewash actually is a cold one, do not really know why I thought it was warm as well,.... but for sure I can tell my previous ones had a warm prewash at 40 c, also the Indesits have a warm prewash from what I know...
It sure helps a bit, but cannot see the lack of the heated prewash as responsible for the crappy results I
get from the Bosch....it is just the same...
I use detergent even the prewash even though differently than the others I have owned, it does not have a conpartment for the prewash....sometimes when I fotget something and it has started already the main wash from awhile, i have to reset and start everything again, this because this crappy electronic control when you stop and resume will do a partial drain before starting from where it left and results in too less water and pump sucking up air...
But even in these occasions I get crappy results, so I can tell that it is not because it lack an heated prewash.... It does not make any difference..
I hate it!
My uncles in Maine got a bosch as well, and they hate theirs as much as I hate mine, they regret their old whirlpool everyday...
[this post was last edited: 4/21/2014-11:15]
 
I have used phosphate-free dishwasher detergents, and have to say I have not noticed a detriment in performance.  Our washing detergents haven't had phosphates for years and results are still excellent.

 

Jon
 
One thing about the new DWs sold to North Americans is that along with using less water, they have motors with less power and anemic heaters. On some if you chose the regular cycle which is Energy Star certified it may heat the wash water to no more than 105F or 110f, so this in combination with non phosphate detergents causes problems and this is also why these cycle are taking upwards of 3 hours to complete. Most newer manuals for these machines say to run hot water before you start it, because the machine isn't going to do it's part to heat the water much hotter.

This is ridiculous for consumers because it negates any savings they get from using this type of dishwasher. You pay to heat the water inside the machine, or you pay to heat the water outside the machine.

In these machines the use of phosphate detergents certainly would improve performance.

I don't know if new machines sold in EU are using these type of low temps to wash dishes or not.
 

Similar threads

kenmoreguy89
Europe phosphate regulations- all STPP out within 2016 in DW products?
Replies
0
Views
1
kenmoreguy89
kenmoreguy89

Latest posts

Back
Top