Europe phosphate regulations- all STPP out within 2016 in DW products?
- Thread starter kenmoreguy89
- Start date
Help Support :
kenmoreguy89
Well-known member
Tied to the wall in a mad house....
LOL.....that's not because of phosphates ban for sure, but is for so many reasons of which this phosphate ban adds to....but really phosphate ban is nothing compared to it all.
I would raise matters belonging to the dirty laundry forum if I say all the things that are driving me mad and that I think I cannot stand stand anymore about Italy and Europe, just saying that I could see that this country was already very bad back then and during ghe time it only had disadvantages in joining the EU and Euro, and everyone can see how this country now has lost it's authority to make the own business at home with the EU fascists telling what we should or shouldn't do at our home and killing the country identity and economy...
But this is not completely fault of Europe anyway, but of italian politicians that are all sold and care about their pockets, instead of country's future....and, eventually of italians that are all about complaining about it but no facts, the truth is that they do not even have skills to understand why everything is so bad...
Returning to the phosphate speech, it's clear how phosphates works better than alternative ingredients such as zeolites or policarboxilates, while I cannot say that it has been a great problem with laundry products I could experience it was instead so with dishwashing products...
I could experience generally that products without them used to give inferior results in cleaning more than else, and reduced shining results and spots on stainless and glass...
Have to be honest though in saying that phosphate products does not always means better, the proof is told by the fact that I have recently tried in a few loads some dishwasher tabs I got at the discount, they had phosphates, but results have been quite disappointing in cleaning.... So do not want to pass the wrong message that whenever there are phosphates you can be sure a product is better, but on a general scale I could experience that products with phosphates performed better and gave results that no phosphate free product ever did...
It's incontrovertible how in the USA it has been a problem for many, while some people didn't notice any differene for others instead it has been a huge problem, that can be related on so many aspects....but if it wasn't so, you wouldn't have had cases like bubble bandit saying "it's not your dishwasher, but your detergent without Stpp" or many people racing for institutional phosphate laden products finally getting again the results they were used to get...
Didn't want to drive the discussion in a political one, even though I realize it is kind of impossible to do not come to talk about governemnt decisions...
While I can see this phosphate ban may be the joy of some Eco maniacs people, I cannot accept how they claim that by doing so they're going to get rid of the phosphate problem in rivers, lakes etc...
When we can see, their presence it is only minimally or anyway greatly inferior compared to ones imputable to farming, fertilizing or other sources...This is not much fair....
It is not even fair, other than smart, keeping blaming them and play the card of enviroinment whenever one wants to take them off detergents in prevision of a future shortage or increase in the price....
Why not say the truth then?
Again, if it wasn't for Louis, this is a thing I couldn't really read anywhere and hear...
[this post was last edited: 4/21/2014-11:10]
LOL.....that's not because of phosphates ban for sure, but is for so many reasons of which this phosphate ban adds to....but really phosphate ban is nothing compared to it all.
I would raise matters belonging to the dirty laundry forum if I say all the things that are driving me mad and that I think I cannot stand stand anymore about Italy and Europe, just saying that I could see that this country was already very bad back then and during ghe time it only had disadvantages in joining the EU and Euro, and everyone can see how this country now has lost it's authority to make the own business at home with the EU fascists telling what we should or shouldn't do at our home and killing the country identity and economy...
But this is not completely fault of Europe anyway, but of italian politicians that are all sold and care about their pockets, instead of country's future....and, eventually of italians that are all about complaining about it but no facts, the truth is that they do not even have skills to understand why everything is so bad...
Returning to the phosphate speech, it's clear how phosphates works better than alternative ingredients such as zeolites or policarboxilates, while I cannot say that it has been a great problem with laundry products I could experience it was instead so with dishwashing products...
I could experience generally that products without them used to give inferior results in cleaning more than else, and reduced shining results and spots on stainless and glass...
Have to be honest though in saying that phosphate products does not always means better, the proof is told by the fact that I have recently tried in a few loads some dishwasher tabs I got at the discount, they had phosphates, but results have been quite disappointing in cleaning.... So do not want to pass the wrong message that whenever there are phosphates you can be sure a product is better, but on a general scale I could experience that products with phosphates performed better and gave results that no phosphate free product ever did...
It's incontrovertible how in the USA it has been a problem for many, while some people didn't notice any differene for others instead it has been a huge problem, that can be related on so many aspects....but if it wasn't so, you wouldn't have had cases like bubble bandit saying "it's not your dishwasher, but your detergent without Stpp" or many people racing for institutional phosphate laden products finally getting again the results they were used to get...
Didn't want to drive the discussion in a political one, even though I realize it is kind of impossible to do not come to talk about governemnt decisions...
While I can see this phosphate ban may be the joy of some Eco maniacs people, I cannot accept how they claim that by doing so they're going to get rid of the phosphate problem in rivers, lakes etc...
When we can see, their presence it is only minimally or anyway greatly inferior compared to ones imputable to farming, fertilizing or other sources...This is not much fair....
It is not even fair, other than smart, keeping blaming them and play the card of enviroinment whenever one wants to take them off detergents in prevision of a future shortage or increase in the price....
Why not say the truth then?
Again, if it wasn't for Louis, this is a thing I couldn't really read anywhere and hear...
[this post was last edited: 4/21/2014-11:10]
kenmoreguy89
Well-known member
P.s.. I can see how priming the line may help to get cleaner results in a hot fill dishwasher of course...but I don't believe this may always be enough to avoid disappointing results....
I think it really plays a marginal role in it, sure, as for washers for which is surely and absolutely more important this is an operation that of course needs to done in certain circumstances, would surprise me if there were people not realizing it...
But of course there are, and unfortunately nowadays more than they used to be....[this post was last edited: 4/21/2014-06:27]
I think it really plays a marginal role in it, sure, as for washers for which is surely and absolutely more important this is an operation that of course needs to done in certain circumstances, would surprise me if there were people not realizing it...
But of course there are, and unfortunately nowadays more than they used to be....[this post was last edited: 4/21/2014-06:27]
mich
Well-known member
I'm not exactly sure...
What Joe is smoking? In my experience, those phosphate laden Cascade Action Pacs, leave dishes significantly more shiny, and gleaming than the Phosphate Free Complete Pacs.
The Complete Pacs, leave lots of Water Spots (if rinse aid isn't added) and... I can tell dried on Food doesn't come off as well, as it used to with the Complete Powder & Just the regular Action Pacs. I can say they work (if you do add the expensive, chemical laden rinse aid, but... you really shouldn't have to, tbh)
Although, it really doesn't matter. Europe's Problem, is the water there is like 4x harder than it is, in the united states. Here most people don't ever even get near 7-8 GPG, but there, its quite the norm for 20-30 to be considered "average" while, 30-50 grains, can even be observed in some harder water areas. Even with Water Softeners, built in to dishwashers themselves, I still don't see the detergent working out so well. Phosphates are the only ingredient that can grab onto water minerals, and suspend them, so residues dont redeposit, if you take those away, and replace them with carbonate & polymers chemicals, I just see a recipe for disaster, esp in extremely hard water areas.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I want to make the point, of making this really, really clear. Detergents, have always been, and always will be better with Phosphates. Phosphates are a Builder, and there the best at what they do, and always will be. They grab onto water minerals, they trap & suspend dirt & grease, and they work with Enzymes to increase alkalinity.
Consumer Reports, has repeatedly said over & over, that NONE of the phosphate free detergents, have the same power as those that did before. Although, some *do* come close, though, such as the Finish Quantum & Cascade Complete.
One thing I that I think, we'll very much be noticed, is Phosphates get the job done, in much less time. With Phosphate Detergents, I can run our Dishwasher on "Normal" and everything will come off, and be really clean. When I use Phosphate Free, that just doesn't happen, I end up find myself, using a longer cycle such as Pots & Pans, or Smart Wash, because the Enzymes no longer have the ability to do there thing on a shorter wash.
I'm sure, a lot will notice the difference. I sure did...
What Joe is smoking? In my experience, those phosphate laden Cascade Action Pacs, leave dishes significantly more shiny, and gleaming than the Phosphate Free Complete Pacs.
The Complete Pacs, leave lots of Water Spots (if rinse aid isn't added) and... I can tell dried on Food doesn't come off as well, as it used to with the Complete Powder & Just the regular Action Pacs. I can say they work (if you do add the expensive, chemical laden rinse aid, but... you really shouldn't have to, tbh)
Although, it really doesn't matter. Europe's Problem, is the water there is like 4x harder than it is, in the united states. Here most people don't ever even get near 7-8 GPG, but there, its quite the norm for 20-30 to be considered "average" while, 30-50 grains, can even be observed in some harder water areas. Even with Water Softeners, built in to dishwashers themselves, I still don't see the detergent working out so well. Phosphates are the only ingredient that can grab onto water minerals, and suspend them, so residues dont redeposit, if you take those away, and replace them with carbonate & polymers chemicals, I just see a recipe for disaster, esp in extremely hard water areas.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I want to make the point, of making this really, really clear. Detergents, have always been, and always will be better with Phosphates. Phosphates are a Builder, and there the best at what they do, and always will be. They grab onto water minerals, they trap & suspend dirt & grease, and they work with Enzymes to increase alkalinity.
Consumer Reports, has repeatedly said over & over, that NONE of the phosphate free detergents, have the same power as those that did before. Although, some *do* come close, though, such as the Finish Quantum & Cascade Complete.
One thing I that I think, we'll very much be noticed, is Phosphates get the job done, in much less time. With Phosphate Detergents, I can run our Dishwasher on "Normal" and everything will come off, and be really clean. When I use Phosphate Free, that just doesn't happen, I end up find myself, using a longer cycle such as Pots & Pans, or Smart Wash, because the Enzymes no longer have the ability to do there thing on a shorter wash.
I'm sure, a lot will notice the difference. I sure did...
passatdoc
Well-known member
@ fisherpaykel
I have a hot-fill Bosch from 2001, so since it fills from the hot water line, and since the first rinse is not heated by the machine (i.e. incoming hot water line temp is your first rinse temp), it would make sense to get the incoming hot water as hot as possible (roughly 140 F for the average hot water tank heater).
I should clarify----I am still using phosphated Finish. When a rumor spread on this board several years ago about the impending national US removal of DW phosphates, I went to Costco and bought 4-5 canisters of Finish PowerBall tabs. There are 80-100 tabs per canister. Shortly thereafter, I was at friends' home for dinner and they mentioned that they didn't like Finish tabs in their KA DW because the soap dispenser was too shallow to close the door easily over the tablet (I think the older non-Powerball tabs worked ok for them, but the Powerball tab is thicker). When I mentioned I had no problem with Powerballs in my Bosch, they immediately bequeathed me 2 1/2 canisters of additional Powerballs, one canister being so old that it still said "Electrasol" on the label (but with individually wrapped/sealed tabs, still good for use). As a result, I probably am sitting on a five year supply of phosphated DW detergent.
However, I did ask our local appliance store owner about the change, since I am concerned that if the Bosch should ever suffer a catastrophic failure and cannot be repaired (so far, 13 years' service with no repairs or any issues at all), I would have to replace it with a new, lower-water-use model and I was concerned how these machines perform, particularly for people who didn't hoard Finish and who have to use the new detergent. He said the new machines will work with new detergents but that priming the line is essential. I have started priming the line before each use, even though I'm using the original machine, though I always had excellent results without priming for 13 years.
My washer/dryer are in the garage, and share a common wall with the DW and kitchen sink (typically American design with direct entry from garage to kitchen). I don't have a laundry sink, but can use the kitchen faucet to prime the hot water lines supplying the washer and DW. I generally do this before washing clothes, because my washer is a BOL 2006 Frigidaire FL (2140) without ATC. If I don't prime, "warm" can be pretty chilly, since it appears to mix incoming hot and cold lines 50:50 and that is "warm". For "hot" loads, I'll prime if I need it to wash at 140F, if not I don't prime and I end up with a compromise between warm and hot. However, if it is a full/absorbent load, the machine will add water 2-3 times to bring up the water level, and the water from those additions is primed/hot.
Board member Golittlesport taught me a second way to prime: start a "hot" cycle, wait until steam builds up on door window (indicative that the line is primed), hit Drain/Spin to empty the water, abort the cycle, then load clothes/soap and start the intended cycle. For me, it's easier to just walk a few feet to the kitchen and use the faucet to prime, but his method would be very useful in applications where there is no nearby faucet to prime.
I have a hot-fill Bosch from 2001, so since it fills from the hot water line, and since the first rinse is not heated by the machine (i.e. incoming hot water line temp is your first rinse temp), it would make sense to get the incoming hot water as hot as possible (roughly 140 F for the average hot water tank heater).
I should clarify----I am still using phosphated Finish. When a rumor spread on this board several years ago about the impending national US removal of DW phosphates, I went to Costco and bought 4-5 canisters of Finish PowerBall tabs. There are 80-100 tabs per canister. Shortly thereafter, I was at friends' home for dinner and they mentioned that they didn't like Finish tabs in their KA DW because the soap dispenser was too shallow to close the door easily over the tablet (I think the older non-Powerball tabs worked ok for them, but the Powerball tab is thicker). When I mentioned I had no problem with Powerballs in my Bosch, they immediately bequeathed me 2 1/2 canisters of additional Powerballs, one canister being so old that it still said "Electrasol" on the label (but with individually wrapped/sealed tabs, still good for use). As a result, I probably am sitting on a five year supply of phosphated DW detergent.
However, I did ask our local appliance store owner about the change, since I am concerned that if the Bosch should ever suffer a catastrophic failure and cannot be repaired (so far, 13 years' service with no repairs or any issues at all), I would have to replace it with a new, lower-water-use model and I was concerned how these machines perform, particularly for people who didn't hoard Finish and who have to use the new detergent. He said the new machines will work with new detergents but that priming the line is essential. I have started priming the line before each use, even though I'm using the original machine, though I always had excellent results without priming for 13 years.
My washer/dryer are in the garage, and share a common wall with the DW and kitchen sink (typically American design with direct entry from garage to kitchen). I don't have a laundry sink, but can use the kitchen faucet to prime the hot water lines supplying the washer and DW. I generally do this before washing clothes, because my washer is a BOL 2006 Frigidaire FL (2140) without ATC. If I don't prime, "warm" can be pretty chilly, since it appears to mix incoming hot and cold lines 50:50 and that is "warm". For "hot" loads, I'll prime if I need it to wash at 140F, if not I don't prime and I end up with a compromise between warm and hot. However, if it is a full/absorbent load, the machine will add water 2-3 times to bring up the water level, and the water from those additions is primed/hot.
Board member Golittlesport taught me a second way to prime: start a "hot" cycle, wait until steam builds up on door window (indicative that the line is primed), hit Drain/Spin to empty the water, abort the cycle, then load clothes/soap and start the intended cycle. For me, it's easier to just walk a few feet to the kitchen and use the faucet to prime, but his method would be very useful in applications where there is no nearby faucet to prime.
kenmoreguy89
Well-known member
Louis, I think I owe an apology or at least had to let you know, i have run the Bosch now, and could see that what I thought being a warm prewash actually is a cold one, do not really know why I thought it was warm as well,.... but for sure I can tell my previous ones had a warm prewash at 40 c, also the Indesits have a warm prewash from what I know...
It sure helps a bit, but cannot see the lack of the heated prewash as responsible for the crappy results I
get from the Bosch....it is just the same...
I use detergent even the prewash even though differently than the others I have owned, it does not have a conpartment for the prewash....sometimes when I fotget something and it has started already the main wash from awhile, i have to reset and start everything again, this because this crappy electronic control when you stop and resume will do a partial drain before starting from where it left and results in too less water and pump sucking up air...
But even in these occasions I get crappy results, so I can tell that it is not because it lack an heated prewash.... It does not make any difference..
I hate it!
My uncles in Maine got a bosch as well, and they hate theirs as much as I hate mine, they regret their old whirlpool everyday...
[this post was last edited: 4/21/2014-11:15]
It sure helps a bit, but cannot see the lack of the heated prewash as responsible for the crappy results I
get from the Bosch....it is just the same...
I use detergent even the prewash even though differently than the others I have owned, it does not have a conpartment for the prewash....sometimes when I fotget something and it has started already the main wash from awhile, i have to reset and start everything again, this because this crappy electronic control when you stop and resume will do a partial drain before starting from where it left and results in too less water and pump sucking up air...
But even in these occasions I get crappy results, so I can tell that it is not because it lack an heated prewash.... It does not make any difference..
I hate it!
My uncles in Maine got a bosch as well, and they hate theirs as much as I hate mine, they regret their old whirlpool everyday...
[this post was last edited: 4/21/2014-11:15]
lavamat_jon
Well-known member
I have used phosphate-free dishwasher detergents, and have to say I have not noticed a detriment in performance. Our washing detergents haven't had phosphates for years and results are still excellent.
Jon
Jon
jerrod6
Well-known member
One thing about the new DWs sold to North Americans is that along with using less water, they have motors with less power and anemic heaters. On some if you chose the regular cycle which is Energy Star certified it may heat the wash water to no more than 105F or 110f, so this in combination with non phosphate detergents causes problems and this is also why these cycle are taking upwards of 3 hours to complete. Most newer manuals for these machines say to run hot water before you start it, because the machine isn't going to do it's part to heat the water much hotter.
This is ridiculous for consumers because it negates any savings they get from using this type of dishwasher. You pay to heat the water inside the machine, or you pay to heat the water outside the machine.
In these machines the use of phosphate detergents certainly would improve performance.
I don't know if new machines sold in EU are using these type of low temps to wash dishes or not.
This is ridiculous for consumers because it negates any savings they get from using this type of dishwasher. You pay to heat the water inside the machine, or you pay to heat the water outside the machine.
In these machines the use of phosphate detergents certainly would improve performance.
I don't know if new machines sold in EU are using these type of low temps to wash dishes or not.
While I haven't been smoking anything, it wouldn't hurt to clarify that I am comparing Cascade with phosphates to Finish Quantum and the latest version of Finish Power Ball, neither of which have phosphates. Both preform better than the Cascade pacs I have with phosphates. I did recently buy Cascade Platinum which doesn't have phosphates, but I haven't tried it yet. Currently trying to use up my stash of the first version of Finish Quantum. One package of the Finish Quantum seems to have gotten moisture in it, as the tabs are a bit swollen and sticky. Luckily, it hasn't impacted performance.
I have purchased but haven't yet tried the newer version of Finish Quantum which has a gel in one part of the package instead of two different powders. My guess is that the newer version would work even better than the original.
All my experience is using a Bosch dishwasher that has a long, 30-35 minute wash, which always is heated to 140F on the regular cycle, 155F on the Power Scrub Plus Cycle. My water heater is set around 120F, and combined with the long distance from my water heater to the dishwasher, the wash portion of the cycle always spends some time at the lower temps that the new enzyme detergents best work to break down soils, before heating to the higher temps where the bleaching ingredients work better. A dishwasher starting a wash with very hot water is not taking full advantage of the newer detergent formulations.
http://bekins.us/2013/01/cloudy-glasses-and-dishwashers/
I have purchased but haven't yet tried the newer version of Finish Quantum which has a gel in one part of the package instead of two different powders. My guess is that the newer version would work even better than the original.
All my experience is using a Bosch dishwasher that has a long, 30-35 minute wash, which always is heated to 140F on the regular cycle, 155F on the Power Scrub Plus Cycle. My water heater is set around 120F, and combined with the long distance from my water heater to the dishwasher, the wash portion of the cycle always spends some time at the lower temps that the new enzyme detergents best work to break down soils, before heating to the higher temps where the bleaching ingredients work better. A dishwasher starting a wash with very hot water is not taking full advantage of the newer detergent formulations.
http://bekins.us/2013/01/cloudy-glasses-and-dishwashers/
kenmoreguy89
Well-known member
I am just the opposite of you....
I have tried every sorts of products, american finish , powder, powerball without stpp, italian finish powder and powerball with stpp... Cascade both with and w/ out stpp...
The finish without stpp didn't work quite well as the italian finish with phosphates instead did....even though the difference was not as noticeable as it is with cascade with and w/out stpp..
But if I had to choose among italian finish and cascade with stpp, I would get my cascads any day!
Time ago I have acquired a stock of Vintage cascade sheeting action off ebay, and it performed so much better than finish powerball and powder did, both the variations with and w/ out phosphates, of course...
I found cascade to be one of the best powders I have ever tried... I have also tried a box of new one without stpp as I was saying, it was not terrible but incomparable to the older version...it left white marks and some dried on stuff behind.
I am fan of finish phosphated powder though for what concerns ones sold here, I find it to be totally different from the tablets, I also like the old school phosphated regular finish gel lemon that we used to use for a period when I was little, now is simply too expensive....finish is one of the best phosphated powders that are sold here, I also like the one of the discount I get here for 1,99 made by McBride (it has phosphates), it is as good as the finish but for less than half the cost finish have...
I usually prefer using powders and sometimes gels rather than the tablets.....but I do not miss to try even tablets at times if they're on offer...
[this post was last edited: 4/21/2014-17:03]
I have tried every sorts of products, american finish , powder, powerball without stpp, italian finish powder and powerball with stpp... Cascade both with and w/ out stpp...
The finish without stpp didn't work quite well as the italian finish with phosphates instead did....even though the difference was not as noticeable as it is with cascade with and w/out stpp..
But if I had to choose among italian finish and cascade with stpp, I would get my cascads any day!
Time ago I have acquired a stock of Vintage cascade sheeting action off ebay, and it performed so much better than finish powerball and powder did, both the variations with and w/ out phosphates, of course...
I found cascade to be one of the best powders I have ever tried... I have also tried a box of new one without stpp as I was saying, it was not terrible but incomparable to the older version...it left white marks and some dried on stuff behind.
I am fan of finish phosphated powder though for what concerns ones sold here, I find it to be totally different from the tablets, I also like the old school phosphated regular finish gel lemon that we used to use for a period when I was little, now is simply too expensive....finish is one of the best phosphated powders that are sold here, I also like the one of the discount I get here for 1,99 made by McBride (it has phosphates), it is as good as the finish but for less than half the cost finish have...
I usually prefer using powders and sometimes gels rather than the tablets.....but I do not miss to try even tablets at times if they're on offer...
[this post was last edited: 4/21/2014-17:03]
kenmoreguy89
Well-known member
One of the most terrible products I have ever tried, were Lidl's w5 new tablets, that really could not even wash out dried mustard..... i ended up crumbling them and using to scrub the sink..
I used to be satisfied with the old white and yellow ones, I think they were called adritt, , but from a few years now they have changed them and canged the name to W5, infact the old ones were made in Luxembourg and had phosphates, the ones they sell now have no phosphates and comes from Germany, when first I bought them I got two packages, I returned my unopened one and claimed my money back quite pissed off...
They were the first experiences with non phosphated products....
I used to be satisfied with the old white and yellow ones, I think they were called adritt, , but from a few years now they have changed them and canged the name to W5, infact the old ones were made in Luxembourg and had phosphates, the ones they sell now have no phosphates and comes from Germany, when first I bought them I got two packages, I returned my unopened one and claimed my money back quite pissed off...
They were the first experiences with non phosphated products....
aquarius1984
Well-known member
I think again some of our American friends dont understand why European Technology is hitting America and why it is so beneficial.
Dishwashers here have been proven to use as little as 12 litres on a dirty full load and get the absolute best results known.
They can do this by utilising low wattage pumps, cycling between the wash arms so the water can cope being spread about. This adds extra time.
It is not the water usage per se but the ENERGY used to heat it up.
Energy is a valuable commodity no matter how rich you are or what you pay. Valuable considering the potential for short supply MANY MANY MANY generations down the line.
Folk who argue its up to them what water they heat and what they are willing to pay are just being short sighted to the future generations whom they wont even meet. They only care about themselves and their time here right now.
OK OK this extra wash time on an already shoddily built DW is detrimental BUT its our job right now to demand better goods that DO use resources more frugally and do so more reliably so they dont end up in land fill.
Not to whinge and moan about DW's using 12 litres instead of 120.
The manufacturers have this RIGHT.
Now as for the internal heating misunderstanding, Appliance manufacturers have started adding internal heaters so you can do away with wasteful hot water tanks not only saving you money as a bonus but to do away with their energy wasting.
That tank you have heats up, sits a while before you demand watern - perhaps over night or in the day while your at work, cools a bit, heats a bit , cools some more, heats again.
Lagging helps but your still cycling the heat on and off all the time wasting resources.
So before your water hits the DW its been heated and cooled potentially a few times. Very wasteful.
Now it cools in the pipework running to your DW, to be heated yet again.
Cold water fill eliminates this and along with your 110v heaters it needs extra time to also get to temp FIRST TIME rather than 3rd 4th or 5th perhaps.
This also benefits your Enzymes in the detergent helping them clean your dishes better.
I imagine traditional HW water tanks will go by the wayside now Combi/Instant demand boilers are getting better and better, more reliable. Quite rightly so,
We love ours and we have saved a fortune on gas bills - enough to pay for the boiler after 3 winters.
Its designed to last upward of ten years so after 6 it will have paid for its next replacement over our old water tank system.
We have worked hard enough for our money - giving it to XXXXpower is the last thing I want to do even if it is my choice to use litres and gallons more water.
Why when I dont have to?
Dishwashers here have been proven to use as little as 12 litres on a dirty full load and get the absolute best results known.
They can do this by utilising low wattage pumps, cycling between the wash arms so the water can cope being spread about. This adds extra time.
It is not the water usage per se but the ENERGY used to heat it up.
Energy is a valuable commodity no matter how rich you are or what you pay. Valuable considering the potential for short supply MANY MANY MANY generations down the line.
Folk who argue its up to them what water they heat and what they are willing to pay are just being short sighted to the future generations whom they wont even meet. They only care about themselves and their time here right now.
OK OK this extra wash time on an already shoddily built DW is detrimental BUT its our job right now to demand better goods that DO use resources more frugally and do so more reliably so they dont end up in land fill.
Not to whinge and moan about DW's using 12 litres instead of 120.
The manufacturers have this RIGHT.
Now as for the internal heating misunderstanding, Appliance manufacturers have started adding internal heaters so you can do away with wasteful hot water tanks not only saving you money as a bonus but to do away with their energy wasting.
That tank you have heats up, sits a while before you demand watern - perhaps over night or in the day while your at work, cools a bit, heats a bit , cools some more, heats again.
Lagging helps but your still cycling the heat on and off all the time wasting resources.
So before your water hits the DW its been heated and cooled potentially a few times. Very wasteful.
Now it cools in the pipework running to your DW, to be heated yet again.
Cold water fill eliminates this and along with your 110v heaters it needs extra time to also get to temp FIRST TIME rather than 3rd 4th or 5th perhaps.
This also benefits your Enzymes in the detergent helping them clean your dishes better.
I imagine traditional HW water tanks will go by the wayside now Combi/Instant demand boilers are getting better and better, more reliable. Quite rightly so,
We love ours and we have saved a fortune on gas bills - enough to pay for the boiler after 3 winters.
Its designed to last upward of ten years so after 6 it will have paid for its next replacement over our old water tank system.
We have worked hard enough for our money - giving it to XXXXpower is the last thing I want to do even if it is my choice to use litres and gallons more water.
Why when I dont have to?
aquarius1984
Well-known member
p.s Phosphated and non phosphated user here.
No real preference as ive found no difference in performance over both types depending on brand.
Had phosphated dets that cant clean for toffee and has unphosphated that can.
Very much down to brand specifics!
Had 'green' label non phosphated that can clean away starch, grease, and protein but has left tannin stains and used 'phosphated' big brands and had them miss starch, grease, and proteins but rid tannins.
Its also been many ways round over the years.
Been thru them all I can tell you! Its so very variable out there,
No real preference as ive found no difference in performance over both types depending on brand.
Had phosphated dets that cant clean for toffee and has unphosphated that can.
Very much down to brand specifics!
Had 'green' label non phosphated that can clean away starch, grease, and protein but has left tannin stains and used 'phosphated' big brands and had them miss starch, grease, and proteins but rid tannins.
Its also been many ways round over the years.
Been thru them all I can tell you! Its so very variable out there,
kenmoreguy89
Well-known member
I disagree with most of what you said.....
Even american machines use to heat their water, they just are smart enough to fill it already hot and start from an hotter point, an electric boiler for hot water would run wheter you use your dishwasher or not....so do not see any difference...it's not like you run a water heater just for a dishwasher...
Moreover, gas is way cheaper than electricity so filling water already hot whenever you have a gas boiler or even better a insta gas heater is more than advisable and cheaper...
In any case it allows extra time saving from machine having to heat it's water from cold....which is anyway appreciated...and that is a thing even sone european dishwasher now finally gives the possibility to do, know of some people who actually did that even before even if not advisable...
Water usage, every machine use the level of water that needs to get the job done, we could see like modern ones uses almost the half less they used to, and IMO and from what I could see and experience apparently with no good results, I have seen and used some american machines and regarding water usage are not much different than europeans, but for sure I can tell you here that they were no paragonable to any european model I have seen as they all provided clean dishes, a thing that I cannot see from long now coming out my european dishwashers.
All I could see in Europe from some years are machines that generally takes forever to wash a load, which motor pumps are weak and which water towers are paragonable to ones of a toy.....And that gives crappy results...
For the rest they are no much different from american ones... Say the least!
What's the matter with European technology? It's not that I do not understand it, I think I understand it very well, and for that I would like to stay away from it!
Dishwashers that use 12 liters and gives the best results known, from who???.... Where?????? please, give me one then! Because it's like 10 years that I am keeping changing machines, but every one is worse of the previous!
I pray every day to find one that does it's job, either it's me unlucky with machines, or do not know what to think, all I know is that with the machines I have used in the USA I never had a problem in matter of cleaning...
[this post was last edited: 4/21/2014-19:06]
Even american machines use to heat their water, they just are smart enough to fill it already hot and start from an hotter point, an electric boiler for hot water would run wheter you use your dishwasher or not....so do not see any difference...it's not like you run a water heater just for a dishwasher...
Moreover, gas is way cheaper than electricity so filling water already hot whenever you have a gas boiler or even better a insta gas heater is more than advisable and cheaper...
In any case it allows extra time saving from machine having to heat it's water from cold....which is anyway appreciated...and that is a thing even sone european dishwasher now finally gives the possibility to do, know of some people who actually did that even before even if not advisable...
Water usage, every machine use the level of water that needs to get the job done, we could see like modern ones uses almost the half less they used to, and IMO and from what I could see and experience apparently with no good results, I have seen and used some american machines and regarding water usage are not much different than europeans, but for sure I can tell you here that they were no paragonable to any european model I have seen as they all provided clean dishes, a thing that I cannot see from long now coming out my european dishwashers.
All I could see in Europe from some years are machines that generally takes forever to wash a load, which motor pumps are weak and which water towers are paragonable to ones of a toy.....And that gives crappy results...
For the rest they are no much different from american ones... Say the least!
What's the matter with European technology? It's not that I do not understand it, I think I understand it very well, and for that I would like to stay away from it!
Dishwashers that use 12 liters and gives the best results known, from who???.... Where?????? please, give me one then! Because it's like 10 years that I am keeping changing machines, but every one is worse of the previous!
I pray every day to find one that does it's job, either it's me unlucky with machines, or do not know what to think, all I know is that with the machines I have used in the USA I never had a problem in matter of cleaning...
[this post was last edited: 4/21/2014-19:06]
My dishdrawers are connected to hot as well. I've got hot water on tap. Why should my dishwasher heat it from cold and use more power? Also the line run from the heater is short, so the hot water is almost instantaneous when I open the tap or turn on the dw. If one has to bleed the line the water doesn't have to go down the drain, it can go in a bucket and be used for the garden or whatever.
As for non-phosphate formulations, I have tried some of the other brands. Finish powder is my preference. I can't see anything on the current container that states that it contains phosphates now. My assumption is that it doesn't, since phosphates are now banned. With the other non-phosphate formulations that have those blue beads, there is always a sticky, blue residue that collects underneath the washarms and filter plate in places; not nice. Finish powder still does it for my flatware and cooking utensils.
As for banning phosphates from detergents, I think it's overkill. The phosphate content in cleaing products was already quite low, less than 5%. Since most people here live downstream 99% of river and lake pollution comes from agriculture and droughts, not detergents.
Some noisy action group forced our government to act on phosphates. They clearly thought that their emotional investment was more important than the facts on phosphate content in Australian detergents and their actual environmental impact. Some people here think that we are or should be part of Europe and ought to copy everything they do there regardless of whether it is pertinent to our conditions.
As for non-phosphate formulations, I have tried some of the other brands. Finish powder is my preference. I can't see anything on the current container that states that it contains phosphates now. My assumption is that it doesn't, since phosphates are now banned. With the other non-phosphate formulations that have those blue beads, there is always a sticky, blue residue that collects underneath the washarms and filter plate in places; not nice. Finish powder still does it for my flatware and cooking utensils.
As for banning phosphates from detergents, I think it's overkill. The phosphate content in cleaing products was already quite low, less than 5%. Since most people here live downstream 99% of river and lake pollution comes from agriculture and droughts, not detergents.
Some noisy action group forced our government to act on phosphates. They clearly thought that their emotional investment was more important than the facts on phosphate content in Australian detergents and their actual environmental impact. Some people here think that we are or should be part of Europe and ought to copy everything they do there regardless of whether it is pertinent to our conditions.
What some have to remember is that some of us have solar-heated water that is far cheaper to use than electricity in our Dishwashers...
So that includes me and my calculations above.
By the way Rapunzel, I'll get a picture of my Finish tabs "ingredient list" for you when I get back home.
I wonder if my supermarket is just receiving older stock?
So that includes me and my calculations above.
By the way Rapunzel, I'll get a picture of my Finish tabs "ingredient list" for you when I get back home.
I wonder if my supermarket is just receiving older stock?
While not exactly looking forward to the phosphate ban, I think it`s a step into the right direction. Eutrophication of the Baltic Sea still seems to be a major problem and food is already a "luxury" for too many in this world !
Maybe there will be a revival of phospates in cleaning products once phospates are recycled cheap and effectively from wastewater everywhere in Europe ?
I`ll use and enjoy them as long as availible but I think I won`t get myself a huge stockpile because I would be afraid that the somewhat limited shelf life of bleaches and enzymes might negate the benefits of the phosphates.
Maybe there will be a revival of phospates in cleaning products once phospates are recycled cheap and effectively from wastewater everywhere in Europe ?
I`ll use and enjoy them as long as availible but I think I won`t get myself a huge stockpile because I would be afraid that the somewhat limited shelf life of bleaches and enzymes might negate the benefits of the phosphates.
Okay washer111
Mine is Finish Advanced, 2xpowder concetrate, made in Korea. There is no ingredient list, only a statement about environmental info that says no chlorine bleach and that it contains biodegradable surfactants - that's all. Theoretically it could contain phosphates, but there is nothing to indicate that. There is no NP label on the bottle either.
Mine is Finish Advanced, 2xpowder concetrate, made in Korea. There is no ingredient list, only a statement about environmental info that says no chlorine bleach and that it contains biodegradable surfactants - that's all. Theoretically it could contain phosphates, but there is nothing to indicate that. There is no NP label on the bottle either.
aquarius1984
Well-known member
Freddie the steer is to get away from using Tank water heaters or at least smaller ones for just supplying hot water to taps and faucets. Tanks of hot water are not needed half as much as anyone thinks.
This is where tankless water heaters come in so wonderfully, so little waste compared to a tank!
Appliances that heat their own water save even Tankless heaters heating water and it cooling thru the pipes on the journey to the machine.
Gas prices may be cheaper now but here they are getting close and closer and have done for sometime.
I cant vouch for the dishwasher thing, I have never experienced what you say even on cheaper low end machines. Honestly I can only see it being down to user error. Cant be franker than that.
If you have the DW connected to hot water and are purging it to get hot water you are totally negating the use of Enzymatic detergents which need to start in cold water and work up to hot.
And while its very shortsighted to believe the Government only thinks about Phosphates and your washing habits im pretty sure here its just the tip of the iceberg in what they do actually do.
Its just because you are passionate about it that it makes you feel this way but you really dont have to. Just go with the flow and be surprised.
This is where tankless water heaters come in so wonderfully, so little waste compared to a tank!
Appliances that heat their own water save even Tankless heaters heating water and it cooling thru the pipes on the journey to the machine.
Gas prices may be cheaper now but here they are getting close and closer and have done for sometime.
I cant vouch for the dishwasher thing, I have never experienced what you say even on cheaper low end machines. Honestly I can only see it being down to user error. Cant be franker than that.
If you have the DW connected to hot water and are purging it to get hot water you are totally negating the use of Enzymatic detergents which need to start in cold water and work up to hot.
And while its very shortsighted to believe the Government only thinks about Phosphates and your washing habits im pretty sure here its just the tip of the iceberg in what they do actually do.
Its just because you are passionate about it that it makes you feel this way but you really dont have to. Just go with the flow and be surprised.
kenmoreguy89
Well-known member
I don't think I am shortsightened, I just say that for what concerns me I could see that there is a general race in going green, it's a fashion of nowadays, surely dictated by the fact that governments and international agreements decided to do something regarding pollution, co2 all that stuff...based on eco theories and policies that I do not really want to comment now...
So would not be strange they do a phosphate ban only for this reason, they do alot of silly decisions lately based on green policies...espcially in Europe which I consider the masters in silly decisions.. Even though USA is really keeping up thanks to the actual president in charge.
You see it in everything....for some cases they brought good things, for others just not, or anyway compromised them...
Regarding phosphates, again, I tell you that I go based on what I read, and can well see all they mention is about envioinment, if there is an iceberg down there about something else, they better tell clearly or shut up and avoid keeping blaming detergents in a very phatetical way...
I could experience phosphated detergents being better...I wish I could be okay even with dishwashing products w/out stpp as much as I am with laundry products, unfortunately to today, that's not the case...
Regarding hot water heaters, I really would not mind have a large one, bigger is better, and tell you again that if I could I'd be the first connecting my dishwasher to hot as IMO it saves time, and in certain circumstances even money!
Loss of heat in pipes is really not a problem for how I ses things,.....and sure plays a very little role in this...
Regarding enzymatic detergents, I tell you, I have used cold connected dishwashers all of my life, but as for everything, I don't care what is supposed to work best and when...but what I care about most of all of course are facts...results!
And a fact that I could experience in my life is that using a dishwasher that filled water already hot, ie an american model gave results I cannot really see an european dishwasher ever gave me... And faster!
As for everything, passion has really nothing to do with such matters, I am not even that passionate about dishwashers, but my thoughts and opinions are driven from what I could see and I always seek for the best, and preferentially I avoid compromise...I want the best I can afford!
Would be so beautiful, but I think that from theory and practice there is a huge sea in the middle....at least for me.
Again, I care about results i can see and touch, not theories, that's the only thing I care about...
Not saying and will never say I am absolutely right, as for everyone I do not have instruments to determine whatever is right....
But for sure can speak from what I have experience on my skin, others may have experienced differently, but nothing will keep me from saying my findings and related opinions.
I tried to follow as you say, and it is only been bad.... That's why I came to realize that speaking of appliances, vintage or "old school" means better, and eco means bad, and that's shy now I am looking for a vintage dishwasher, confident of the fact that it will work as I expect a dishwasher does, it will use more water? more electricity? I don"t care, I just want to finally open the machine and be sure that the stuff I am about putting away is really clean, without inspecting and eventually rewash part of the load..... A thing that from awhile I cannot do anymore...
If others gave the results, and other didn't I cannot really see how it may be my fault.....
Perhaps my fault is the logical will of not have to lay down for compromises, pretreat, presoak,prerinse etc...
Then what I have a dishwasher for?
[this post was last edited: 4/22/2014-06:23]
So would not be strange they do a phosphate ban only for this reason, they do alot of silly decisions lately based on green policies...espcially in Europe which I consider the masters in silly decisions.. Even though USA is really keeping up thanks to the actual president in charge.
You see it in everything....for some cases they brought good things, for others just not, or anyway compromised them...
Regarding phosphates, again, I tell you that I go based on what I read, and can well see all they mention is about envioinment, if there is an iceberg down there about something else, they better tell clearly or shut up and avoid keeping blaming detergents in a very phatetical way...
I could experience phosphated detergents being better...I wish I could be okay even with dishwashing products w/out stpp as much as I am with laundry products, unfortunately to today, that's not the case...
Regarding hot water heaters, I really would not mind have a large one, bigger is better, and tell you again that if I could I'd be the first connecting my dishwasher to hot as IMO it saves time, and in certain circumstances even money!
Loss of heat in pipes is really not a problem for how I ses things,.....and sure plays a very little role in this...
Regarding enzymatic detergents, I tell you, I have used cold connected dishwashers all of my life, but as for everything, I don't care what is supposed to work best and when...but what I care about most of all of course are facts...results!
And a fact that I could experience in my life is that using a dishwasher that filled water already hot, ie an american model gave results I cannot really see an european dishwasher ever gave me... And faster!
As for everything, passion has really nothing to do with such matters, I am not even that passionate about dishwashers, but my thoughts and opinions are driven from what I could see and I always seek for the best, and preferentially I avoid compromise...I want the best I can afford!
Would be so beautiful, but I think that from theory and practice there is a huge sea in the middle....at least for me.
Again, I care about results i can see and touch, not theories, that's the only thing I care about...
Not saying and will never say I am absolutely right, as for everyone I do not have instruments to determine whatever is right....
But for sure can speak from what I have experience on my skin, others may have experienced differently, but nothing will keep me from saying my findings and related opinions.
I tried to follow as you say, and it is only been bad.... That's why I came to realize that speaking of appliances, vintage or "old school" means better, and eco means bad, and that's shy now I am looking for a vintage dishwasher, confident of the fact that it will work as I expect a dishwasher does, it will use more water? more electricity? I don"t care, I just want to finally open the machine and be sure that the stuff I am about putting away is really clean, without inspecting and eventually rewash part of the load..... A thing that from awhile I cannot do anymore...
If others gave the results, and other didn't I cannot really see how it may be my fault.....
Perhaps my fault is the logical will of not have to lay down for compromises, pretreat, presoak,prerinse etc...
Then what I have a dishwasher for?
[this post was last edited: 4/22/2014-06:23]
"If you have the DW connected to hot water and are purging it to get hot water you are totally negating the use of Enzymatic detergents which need to start in cold water and work up to hot."
This is actually false. At least in my house, the water is tempered to 50°C per government regulations - whilst this only applies to bathrooms, it isn't feasible in our house to alter the setup without significant inconvenience and stuffing around.
Therefore, the dishwasher gets that temperature intake. Since there is about a 30cm run of pipe from the main line (kitchen tap) to dishwasher tap, the detergent gets an initial flush with cold water, before it heats up to the hotter temperature.
If I enable the diagnostic temperature-sensing display, it actually only gives me about 5-10° on the original tub-temperature, depending on conditions, due to the thermal mass of the machine + dishes. So, if the machine is at 24° when starting, I typically only see about 30° by the end of the fill - giving about a 10-15 minute heating period on the machine.
Many machines, including the Dishlex from our old home (2007 model) and the Bosch machine (1980's) I used in Norway heat the water to the desired temperature BEFORE releasing the detergent - so on those machines, purging the tap only saves time, energy and makes little difference to washing performance (if/when they are connected to hot).
The DishDrawer has a flow-thru detergent dispenser, so "hitting" the detergent with really hot water (probably more than 60°) would hurt the enzymes - then again, modern enzymes are designed for higher temperature washing anyway, so it doesn't matter all that much.
The other "issue" you could describe is enzyme activity at colder temperatures. We all know that fat doesn't dissolve into the water readily at lower temperatures, and the activity of enzymes does tend to decrease at cold temperatures. So starting at cold inlet and heating into their most active zone (Around body temperature, to somewhere around 55-60°) isn't going to yield better results, except for soaking heavier soils.
FYI, I never have trouble with cleaning, even when purging the taps. I'd rather save my $20 or so per-annum than use it heating water and potentially not even reaching the target temperatures (I've "caught" the machine doing this on heavy - where it has to heat from cold - 65° in short time, always in the final rinse. It will "cut" the heating at about 55° on cold inlet, but will always reach the temperature on Hot inlet).
This is actually false. At least in my house, the water is tempered to 50°C per government regulations - whilst this only applies to bathrooms, it isn't feasible in our house to alter the setup without significant inconvenience and stuffing around.
Therefore, the dishwasher gets that temperature intake. Since there is about a 30cm run of pipe from the main line (kitchen tap) to dishwasher tap, the detergent gets an initial flush with cold water, before it heats up to the hotter temperature.
If I enable the diagnostic temperature-sensing display, it actually only gives me about 5-10° on the original tub-temperature, depending on conditions, due to the thermal mass of the machine + dishes. So, if the machine is at 24° when starting, I typically only see about 30° by the end of the fill - giving about a 10-15 minute heating period on the machine.
Many machines, including the Dishlex from our old home (2007 model) and the Bosch machine (1980's) I used in Norway heat the water to the desired temperature BEFORE releasing the detergent - so on those machines, purging the tap only saves time, energy and makes little difference to washing performance (if/when they are connected to hot).
The DishDrawer has a flow-thru detergent dispenser, so "hitting" the detergent with really hot water (probably more than 60°) would hurt the enzymes - then again, modern enzymes are designed for higher temperature washing anyway, so it doesn't matter all that much.
The other "issue" you could describe is enzyme activity at colder temperatures. We all know that fat doesn't dissolve into the water readily at lower temperatures, and the activity of enzymes does tend to decrease at cold temperatures. So starting at cold inlet and heating into their most active zone (Around body temperature, to somewhere around 55-60°) isn't going to yield better results, except for soaking heavier soils.
FYI, I never have trouble with cleaning, even when purging the taps. I'd rather save my $20 or so per-annum than use it heating water and potentially not even reaching the target temperatures (I've "caught" the machine doing this on heavy - where it has to heat from cold - 65° in short time, always in the final rinse. It will "cut" the heating at about 55° on cold inlet, but will always reach the temperature on Hot inlet).
kenmoreguy89
Well-known member
Your government really tells you how your hot water should be hot????
Are you kidding????
Are you kidding????
aquarius1984
Well-known member
Freddie cut the anti government stuff and look into what it means before you post.
Its actually a great idea.
Its tempered water to stop mentally frail people and children SCALDING themselves while bathing or washing their hands.
Dosnt mean they get legionaires disiese as its tempered near the source I believe.
In the 1970's a baby died because of falling into a bath of scalding hot water - perhaps if all hot bathroom taps were tempered worldwide things like this wouldnt happen.
And before you give the 'its the parents fault' crap just remember what you got upto as a child and how easy it was for you to hide from your parents.
Its actually a great idea.
Its tempered water to stop mentally frail people and children SCALDING themselves while bathing or washing their hands.
Dosnt mean they get legionaires disiese as its tempered near the source I believe.
In the 1970's a baby died because of falling into a bath of scalding hot water - perhaps if all hot bathroom taps were tempered worldwide things like this wouldnt happen.
And before you give the 'its the parents fault' crap just remember what you got upto as a child and how easy it was for you to hide from your parents.
aquarius1984
Well-known member
worth a watch
although the Jimmy Savile scandal is another topic and NOT for this website.
although the Jimmy Savile scandal is another topic and NOT for this website.
Just so everyone knows I'm not bluffing 
Finish Quantum Lemon 20+10 bought about 2 weeks ago to replace Fairy Platinum (like Cascade Complete Pacs) with equal amounts of Phosphate. At least these don't have gel that will dissolve and wreck the other pacs!
Finish Quantum Lemon 20+10 bought about 2 weeks ago to replace Fairy Platinum (like Cascade Complete Pacs) with equal amounts of Phosphate. At least these don't have gel that will dissolve and wreck the other pacs!
No, the government doesn't determine the temperature of our water - only how hot it comes out at Bathroom taps (Not laundry/kitchen ones). Although in MY experience, you can still be scalded at 50° - maybe just my "delicate" hands 
What I scoff at is how our water heaters cannot be set below 60° due to "Legionella risk," if that was so, why do people in the U.S. get to turn theirs down to 48°?
The bug is only a risk at temperatures below about 45°!
And of course, to top it off, the manufacturer of our Solar-Water Heater "recommend" people leave the electric booster ON (wasting power) to ensure the Government Mandate is met, and the water doesn't get "too cold."
(I'll scan that too, if ANYONE is wondering).
What I scoff at is how our water heaters cannot be set below 60° due to "Legionella risk," if that was so, why do people in the U.S. get to turn theirs down to 48°?
The bug is only a risk at temperatures below about 45°!
And of course, to top it off, the manufacturer of our Solar-Water Heater "recommend" people leave the electric booster ON (wasting power) to ensure the Government Mandate is met, and the water doesn't get "too cold."
(I'll scan that too, if ANYONE is wondering).
I was surprised too...
I found it out researching Electric vs. Heat-Pump. Vs. Solar... Seems Electric doesn't go colder than 60°, Heat-Pump not warmer than 55°, generally and Solar, well, that depends on the Sun and whether you leave the booster on or not. Since I've got some time, I'll fish that manual out tomorrow and see what AU/NZ Standard that is meant to be. I did post a *rant mode* thread last year when the system was installed... So you could search that too!
Of course, I guess the "official" settings on a heater might be counted, not "Holiday" modes that save energy. Who knows?
I found it out researching Electric vs. Heat-Pump. Vs. Solar... Seems Electric doesn't go colder than 60°, Heat-Pump not warmer than 55°, generally and Solar, well, that depends on the Sun and whether you leave the booster on or not. Since I've got some time, I'll fish that manual out tomorrow and see what AU/NZ Standard that is meant to be. I did post a *rant mode* thread last year when the system was installed... So you could search that too!
Of course, I guess the "official" settings on a heater might be counted, not "Holiday" modes that save energy. Who knows?
kenmoreguy89
Well-known member
A great idea FOR YOU! I exactlly know what it means and really do not need you to explain it for me, Believe it or not I got a brain! thank you!
From awhile have been invented mixing valves, this does not prevent you to make a different line before it supplying washer and dishwasher, and the other line supplying taps...
Also I heard of taps who have one already incorporated...
Since one may have childrens or not, this does make the government able to tell me how water must be hot in my house...NEVER! And it is just absurd!
And just for you to know, I grew up in an house where water from the taps gets out at 60 degress, I never and say never got a scald, even when I was a child, just because I was smart enough to set tap to the proper temperature...
And yes, if that is happened in the 70s that was parents fault...not because they may have missed the survelliance of the child, but because they didn't take due precautions, ie lower themselves the water heater if they got a dumb child....
It's not that because a couple parents have been, let's say negligent they should make mandatory for all...
From awhile have been invented mixing valves, this does not prevent you to make a different line before it supplying washer and dishwasher, and the other line supplying taps...
Also I heard of taps who have one already incorporated...
Since one may have childrens or not, this does make the government able to tell me how water must be hot in my house...NEVER! And it is just absurd!
And just for you to know, I grew up in an house where water from the taps gets out at 60 degress, I never and say never got a scald, even when I was a child, just because I was smart enough to set tap to the proper temperature...
And yes, if that is happened in the 70s that was parents fault...not because they may have missed the survelliance of the child, but because they didn't take due precautions, ie lower themselves the water heater if they got a dumb child....
It's not that because a couple parents have been, let's say negligent they should make mandatory for all...
Latest posts
-
-
-
-
CU's Very First Dishwasher Issue - 1952- Latest: Unimatic1140
-
