eurr outlets

[panthera]

Actually,

The double insulated and no way, José to "zip cord is not entirely true, unfortunately.
Lots of Chinese stuff coming in to Europe is trash. The certifications are not genuine and a quick look at the wiring is enough to scare you. Including some line cords with "zip cord".
One example which caused quite a few fires in the last years were those pretty fairy lamps which change colors and have simple patterns...the line cord in to some of them was 'zip' and the 220V lines out (on this device) were also thin, single wire.
This double insulated stuff sounds good, but I have seen some cables which were so thinly insulated any protection would have been much less than that of a well put together 'zip'.
Because the UK has a different plug and socket than the rest of us, maybe they have been spared this problem. Over here, we seem to have a recall of this that or the other electrical doo-dad every day. Certainly, all the BS1365 I have lying around do have decent double insulated cables.
Interesting side note, on the Schuko outlets, the identified (I can be politically correct when I want to be )) cable goes to the right and line to the left. Even tho' the Europlug and the Schucko are not polarized, inspectors assume non-adherence is a sign of other slacking off and will and do ramp up their inspections when they see things reversed from the recommendation.
I don't have the details on the newest regs, but the Swiss until recently were still permitting the neutral (oh, that feels so much better) to also be used as the socket ground in older homes.
Just my two little Eurocents to counteract any impression that our electrical state of affairs here is soooo much better than in North America. (Sure, I prefer 230V lines, too and am neutral on the 50/60Hz argument. Fifty is conclusively safer, but 'tis still a bit like drowning in 3 meters or 30...)

 

[toggleswitch]

I'm not going to play "Mine is better than yours or

~One example which caused quite a few fires in the last years were those pretty fairy......
Watch them fairies. They look harmless but don't piss them off. When the brick in their purse makes contact with a basher'a head MAMMA MIA!

Ah KETTLE HEADS. TYVM! EUREKA!
Thank you Very Much also Gabriele!

50hz/60hz.
I'm not following how 50hz is safer than 60hz. (I may have to re-read the above).

For those of us used to 60hz, Euro and UK TV appears to flicker for a day or two until we get used to it. The "refresh" rate of the screen is tied to line-voltage Hertz. ANYHOOOOOOO..........

If A/C throws you and D/C pulls you in (can't let go of live/hot/active conductors/leads/mains/lines), wouldn't 60hz be theoeretically better? Also did we not at one time say that 60hz A/C motors are more efficient and run cooler and smaller than 50hz motors?

Looks like a more ideal system would take from 220v and 60hz. Overall.

I never even thought of lamp/zip cord as single insulated and that there are other, perhaps better-suited, types. Personally I'm used to being able to SEE worn insulation to be able to replace it rather than hiding it under another layer. But live and learn!

Here's another tid-bit, in the UK I have seen electrical wires grounded/earthed to GAS pipes! The DIY manual I picked up there AGREES with this. THAT IS A BIG NO-NO NOT-EVER here! Notice I did not say one is right and one is wrong. I'm just saying it was a "shock" (no pun intended). It goes against the theory and practise. I have come to understand!

Amperage, not voltage kills. But voltage facilitates the ameperage to get through you! Perhaps areas with 220v more properly revere it and are more cautious.

So in reference to the world maps with electrical voltages and cycles......... can 50hz and 60hz countries/areas (That border on each-other) easily buy power from each other? The voltage is immaterial, in that it can be trasformed into whatever is needed to run throught the transmission lines. Frequency however.......

 

[MrX]

Toggleswitch

Are you sure that you're not looking at bonding wires?

It's normal practice in Ireland and the UK to bond all pipework with earth wires to the earthing (grounding) system in the building. This creates an equipotential zone and prevents electric shocks. It's necessary when you use a TNC earthing system.

All metal plumbing is interconnected with heavy gauge green & yellow earth cables. These are connected to the the grounded neutral provided by the power company.

If this is not done, there is a risk that there could be a potential difference (i.e. dangerous voltage) between metal fittings!!

Gas and water pipes *MUST* be bonded with earth cables.

 

[MrX]

Gas Meter

Here's a gas meter bonded.

 

[MrX]

Requirements for a bathroom

Every pipe has to be connected electrically to every other pipe and so on. You will see earth cables running between pipes under sinks, beside water heaters etc etc.

 

[toggleswitch]

~Are you sure that you're not looking at bonding wires?
I'm not sure I follow. Aren't we saying the same thing?

~It's normal practice in Ireland and the UK to bond all pipework with earth wires to the earthing (grounding) system in the building. This creates an equipotential zone and prevents electric shocks. It's necessary when you use a TNC earthing system.

TNC?

As far as I know we ground/earth the incoming electrical service to copper rods driven into the ground/earth, and to the incoming (cold) water service with a jumper cable on both sides of the water meter. Nothing more.

~Gas and water pipes *MUST* be bonded with earth cables.
We don't ground gas, I could bet the farm on it. It's not the sort of place you'd want static or reisual current.......

But fascinating (I) THANK YOU you for taking the time to educate all and myself as well.

BTW America, the shaver socket in the UK is NOT a regular outlet/socket/power-point. It is an isolating transformer for safety. Also in th UK IIRC 220v power-tools are NOT allowed on consruction-sites where 55v is required....someone please
cofirm that the little toggle-brain still works.

I was in a landromat in my 20's when the building's grouding/earthing connection to the water-main was disconnected as that pipe was being worked-on. OMG!!! The fluorescent lighting went dim and was flickering. The machines made noises and when when one dryer was started the whole place went dim and other dryers stopped......... It was BIZARRE! Apparently it is crucial to earth/ground.........

 

[toggleswitch]

OMG if that is soldered copper tubing/pipe on the gas service, I'm thinking that to my knowledge is not allowed here either. (a blow-torch with an open-flame on a gas pipe *SHUDDERS*)

We have threaded black-iron and galvanized(for high humidity areas) generally. Copper tubing WITH FLARED FITTING and black iron is permissible with LP (Liquified-propane /bottled gas). ow, corrugated (flexible) conectors (with a plactic yellow sheath of loos plastic over it) tend to run as main pipes with a central manfiold and cut-off valves going to various gas "branches". Similar to a fuse box in concept.

Fascinating to see how the same theories and laws of nature and physics are interpreted and manifested and evolve differently!

 

[toggleswitch]

THREADED black-iron and galvanized, that is!

 

[selectomatic]

At the risk of sounding jingoistic, 60Hz is better than 50Hz

For transformers of equal size and weight, a 60Hz transformer can have a 20% higher current rating than its 50Hz counterpart. There are similar differences in any electromagnetic device which runs directly on AC.

In general the higher the frequency, the smaller, lighter, cooler, and less expensive the transformer (or motor, relay, solenoid, etc.) This is no doubt a big reason that aircraft typically use 400Hz power.

As has already been mentioned, standard television has a refresh rate that's synchronized with the power line. That means that 50Hz systems have more noticeable flicker.

It's also true that standard fluorescent and neon lamps flicker twice each cycle. This isn't as noticeable, but it can be annoying.

With technology advancing as it has for some time now, most of these factors are no longer important. Most small power transformers (like the "Wall Warts" that charge your cell phone) are no longer actual transformers, but electronic power supplies which are smaller, lighter, cheaper, and which can often run on a very wide range of input voltages and frequencies without any problem.

I just this weekend replaced the fluorescent lights in my library with a newer, higher-efficiency type. The new ballasts will run on anything from 100-277V at 50 or 60 Hz. And the output frequency is much higher, so there's no flicker.

Since virtually all consumer electronics these days are being manufactured for a global market, we're going to see an increasing percentage of electronic devices that aren't frequency-specific, and quite a few that aren't voltage-specific.

-kevin

 

[panthera]

Of bondage and toggles

I confirm that your working brain is small.

(ducks and runs)

Ok, sorry...we all know you run rings around the rest of us here and I just couldn't resist. I wish more of us could develop your sense of lightness. Oh, dear, I did it again. Didn't mean in the loafers, but your approach...never mind, It is four am here and I just woke up. I thank the gods for your teasability. Too many of us take ourselves far too seriously. Did we just speak of ourselves in majestates pluralis?
Whatever:

Bonding simply means connecting everything together with conductive elements (cable, copper ribbon, etc.) so that there is equal potential across all surfaces.
Grounding or earthing means to discharge any potential through a conductive element such as a cable or copper ribbon into the earth/ground.

When they fill up the underground tanks at the gas station (petrol station in the UK), the first thing the driver does is to make sure that the truck, the filling hoses, the tanks, everything are bonded so that there is no possibility of static electric discharge which could ignite the gas vapor...what is the flash point of Benzin? -50°C or something?

By bonding everything together in a bathroom or kitchen, we make sure that the potential is the same on all surfaces.

That copper is not the thin walled stuff but seamless, thick walled and tested. It is safe.
Bonding and grounding gas lines is done in the US all the time...just look at a permanent propane set up. I think your reaction comes from our being taught to never, ever ground TO a gas line...for obvious reasons.

I agree with you tho', every time I am in the British Isles, things like that crop up which just throw me for a bit. Like putting the drains outside the building. Makes sense, really, but growing up in Colorado (our winters get down to -40° and colder...no C or F needed there girls and boys) or their large plugs and power points...well, they just look at things from a different perspective than North Americans and Germans do.

Of course TV is not synchronized to 50hz power supplies (nor to 60). If it ever was, that is long since past. It is true, of course that TV at 50 hz "flimmers" horribly. As did the old fluorescent (neon) lights. That is all becoming a thing of the past.

It may be wrong, but I was taught that 50Hz is slightly less dangerous for the heart than 60Hz is. Beats me. Like I said earlier, dead is dead, whether at 3 or 30 feet...and it doesn't take much of a shock to kill you nor, really, a very high voltage at all.
Probably we should rethink our distribution system radically. Harmonize on the considerably more efficient 230V, 60Hz for large consumers, 12V DC for small consumers and some sort of three-phase for stoves, washers, dryers, other heavy consumers.

 

[sudsmaster]

Dimly from my biology past...

I recall at one point learning that for the human nervous system, 50 Hz is indeed safer than 60 Hz. Has something to do with frequencies that interrupt our nerve impulses - 60 Hz being more disruptive than 50 Hz. But as I also recall, there's never been shown to be a practical problem, so it's more theory than reality.

When I get a chance I'll try to run down a reference for above.

 

[toggleswitch]

AHHH SIZE QUEEN!

~lightness in the loafers.
oh that's easy. Take your best red or black paent leather pumps with 4" (100mm) stiletto heels and hook them to the ceiling (paddle) fan...while still wearing them.

~Bonding and grounding gas lines is done in the US all the time.
...I'm not from Missouri, but SHOW ME!*

~What is the flash point of Benzin? -50°C or something?
BENZIN?
OK, now I'm confused because the Greeks use BENZIN(e) to mean gasoline. So what do YOU mean?

~Bonding simply means connecting everything together with conductive elements (cable, copper ribbon, etc.) so that there is equal potential across all surfaces.

I am honestly not aware of this technique used here. Will have to enquire. Pehaps mandatory in commercial buildngs.


I've seen TV documentaries where workers on high tension wires, that must stay live/active/hot while beign worked upon, are in a metallic "space-suits" and everthing gets bonded--- to each-other item and to the live conductor!!!!!! The helicopter as it hovers, the technician's suit EVERYTHING. YIKES!

*Missouri, the “Show Me State”.
A name attributed to Representative Willard Van Diver. It conotates a certain self-deprecating stubbornness and devotion to simple common sense.
source: State Names, Seals, Flags, and Symbols by Benjamin F. Shearer, Barbara S. Shearer

 

[panthera]

yeah, Rich,

Something like that... the heart being sync'd at 60Hz, the liver at 50 or whatever. I don't remember either. Do tell what you find out!
I'm still trying not to give in to all the bondage and H/C jokes which this thread provoke in my little brain.
By the by, splitter is technically right, but didn't Miele call them converters back in the day? Sort of like Miele called split-phase "two-phase" (please, o ye anal-retentive, don't start up again)?
It is not easy to settle on one term when you think in one language, were taught a basically obsolete and thoroughly made up language in school and are trying to write cogently in a third (German, "Oxford English", Modern English).

 

[sudsmaster]

Well, I did a quick Google on the topic, and I was unable to find anything that claimed 50 Hz was "healthier" than 60 Hz. And the scientific literature appears to be inconclusive that 60 Hz causes any significant health problems, either. A lot of the studies used both 50/60 hz and didn't seem to find any difference in the test tube... but then I didn't read all of them.

I did run across a fascinating history of various power frequencies, how 50/60 came into being, etc. Link follows.

http://www.answers.com/topic/utility-frequency

 

[sudsmaster]

Re: bonding

As far as I know, current code requires all water lines to be bonded if they connect copper to steel pipes. This reduces electric potential based corrosion of the "baser" metal (in this example, the steel). It may also be an electrical safety requirement, esp when a dielectric union is used to connect the water pipes, which is not electrically conductive, so a bonding wire is desirable if not required by code.

 

[panthera]

Great link,

Thanks, Rich!

 

[panthera]

tee-hee

Steve, I love you. The anal-retentive-PC-crowd are trying to have a serious discussion here and somebody forgot to send the men in the white suits after us.
With my first cup of coffee in me, let me reply to your comments:
AHHH SIZE QUEEN!
>>>You bet'cha I am. You are, of course, refering to our discussion of 10AWG wersus 12AWG on that other thread, right?
Right.

~lightness in the loafers.
oh that's easy. Take your best red or black paent leather pumps with 4" (100mm) stiletto heels and hook them to the ceiling (paddle) fan...while still wearing them.
>>>I admit to being handicapped, I just can't walk straight in less than a 6" heel.

~Bonding and grounding gas lines is done in the US all the time.
...I'm not from Missouri, but SHOW ME!*
>>>Ok, here is a composite of two illustrations on the topic (I still can't put more than one picture in one posting. Too d-u-m, dumb I guess...These are from the article from the link from below.
~What is the flash point of Benzin? -50°C or something?
BENZIN?
OK, now I'm confused because the Greeks use BENZIN(e) to mean gasoline. So what do YOU mean?
>>>So, sorry, was pre-coffee there and still thinking in German. Hard enough to try to remember all the left-handed UK terms for things...kept writing the color then the bird and finally got (I hope) the gas station. Benzin is the German word for Gasoline or Petrol for the British. It is not the same thing as the English "Benzine", by the by...

~Bonding simply means connecting everything together with conductive elements (cable, copper ribbon, etc.) so that there is equal potential across all surfaces.

I am honestly not aware of this technique used here. Will have to enquire. Pehaps mandatory in commercial buildngs.
>>>I know, it is one of those things which we don't notice unless we work in the business. I worked at a gas station for a while (desperate, broke, looks gone, all the street corners were already taken and those girls were nasty)

I've seen TV documentaries where workers on high tension wires, that must stay live/active/hot while beign worked upon, are in a metallic "space-suits" and everthing gets bonded--- to each-other item and to the live conductor!!!!!! The helicopter as it hovers, the technician's suit EVERYTHING. YIKES!

>>>Yikes, sounds scary. Especially considering the potential generated by the copter.

*Missouri, the “Show Me State”.
A name attributed to Representative Willard Van Diver. It conotates a certain self-deprecating stubbornness and devotion to simple common sense.
source: State Names, Seals, Flags, and Symbols by Benjamin F. Shearer, Barbara S. Shearer

>>>Toggles, if you are self-deprecating, then all I can say is, well, never mind. Like I said above - I love you. If only we could squeeze you and refine you and serve you up to some of the anal-retentives around here, life would be soooo much easier...
Oh, a spoonful of sugar makes...Nope, not gonna go there, oh dear me no. But check out this link:

http://www.iaei.org/subscriber/magazine/04_c/johnston.htm

 

[toggleswitch]

Thanks!

 

[MrX]

The reason for bonding is pretty complex

Earthing/Grounding systems are a lot more complex than people think. It's not just a matter of connecting your appliances / metal surfaces to a big grounding rod. There are all sorts of other issues.

Basically, what's done in most Irish installations is as follows (The UK's similar but not identical).

At a point just before the meter, the power company connects the main ground in the house (which has independent ground rods too) directly to their supply neutral. Their neutral is grounded with rods at regular intervals all the way back to the supply transformer, so will always remain at 0V. This approach to grounding is similar to the US too. It gives you a much more secure ground than a simple ground rod.

The problem is that plumbing systems are connected to long runs of underground metal pipe work. This can act as a neutral / ground conductor in the event of a major neutral fault on the supply system. i.e. the pipework can become live. Basically 'stray neutrals' will attempt to find a way back to the transformer they came from / the earth and will do so via any conductor available - pipes are ideal.

So, in order to prevent any risk of currents flowing / potential difference, we interconnect all the metal pipes (gas and electric) with the ground which is interconnected to the power company's grounded neutral system. So, absolutely everything's at the same potential and there's no risk of discharge or electric shock.

For gas pipes / explosive environments it actually eliminates the risk of sparks!

Obviously as more and more plastic pipe becomes the norm, some of these problems are at least partially eliminated. However, we still insist on bonding absolutely everything where a TN, TN-C or TN-S system is in use i.e. where the power company supplies a grounded neutral conductor.

The UK basically uses the same system, but does not necessarily require the local grounding rods and there are minor differences in how the interconnection between the main house ground and the supply grounded neutral is done.