Assuming I ever get moved into the mini manse I'll have to deal with a NON self cleaning over (I mean really). It's a relatively new GE smooth top. Reading the owners manual was useless, since it covers every GE range of that vintage. So, what is the deal with foil on the oven floor? It's an exposed coil. I can't see why foil would cause any real issues. Considering that every time I self clean the Fridigire in the main manse the oven catches fire, how much damage could I do?
Foil and ovens
- Thread starter cuffs054
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I had a GE electric oven in which I kept foil on the floor of the oven. Everything went OK for about 5 yrs. Then last Thanksgiving while the turkey was in the oven I noticed that there was an approx. 1/8" ring near the back of the element that remained orange even after the element cycled off. Stupid me, I didn't think anything about it. Then the next week I put a casserole into the oven to heat and went into the living room to watch the news. About 10 mins later I heard a loud pop and there was a flash of light in the kitchen. I went into the. kitchen and the foil on the floor of the oven was on fire. After getting the fire out and cleaning up all the bits of burnt foil I noticed that that area where the element had glowed orange even when the element cycled off had fused to the floor of the oven. I learned that apparently the heat being reflected back onto the element from the foil causes damage. I replaced the stove and now use a black silicone liner under the element. Same protection to the oven floor as with foil without the potential for damage to the element. I purchased the silicone liner at Walmart for around $10.00.
Eddie
Eddie
mamapinky
Well-known member
Eddie
Did that silicone oven liner give a recommendation on max oven temperature while using it? I was reading the package of one at Bed, Bath &Beyond and it said never use in a oven with a temp exceeding 375 degrees. If yours can go to 400 or so I'll have to go to walmart for it. Cheryl
Did that silicone oven liner give a recommendation on max oven temperature while using it? I was reading the package of one at Bed, Bath &Beyond and it said never use in a oven with a temp exceeding 375 degrees. If yours can go to 400 or so I'll have to go to walmart for it. Cheryl
Cheryl,
I just looked at the box, says resists heat up to 550F. I've used it up to 475F with no problems. The box does state that in electric ovens with concealed elements the liner can't be put on the floor of the oven , but instead on lowest rack, likewise for gas ovens. This liner wipes off easily with a damp cloth or sponge.
Eddie
I just looked at the box, says resists heat up to 550F. I've used it up to 475F with no problems. The box does state that in electric ovens with concealed elements the liner can't be put on the floor of the oven , but instead on lowest rack, likewise for gas ovens. This liner wipes off easily with a damp cloth or sponge.
Eddie
launderess
Well-known member
Though commonly done back in the day and even now
It is highly recommended *not* to line oven floors with aluminum foil. Many manufactures state clearly that using foil or anything else to line the oven floor or walls will void the warranty. Supposedly doing so damages the porcelain and causes other harm to the oven.
One worry and it seems frequent problem is that the heat of oven causes aluminum foil or whatever to actually fuse to the porcelain or coating of inner surfaces. Once this happens it cannot be removed easily if at all.
If preventing drips from reaching oven floor it is suggested placing heavy foil on the rack underneath whatever one is baking/roasting. You can extend it out a bit wider than the pan but again the foil shouldn't touch oven wall or other surfaces.
I just use old large cookie sheets lined with foil.
Gas ovens have the other worry of blocking the air holes/vents if covered with foil.
It is highly recommended *not* to line oven floors with aluminum foil. Many manufactures state clearly that using foil or anything else to line the oven floor or walls will void the warranty. Supposedly doing so damages the porcelain and causes other harm to the oven.
One worry and it seems frequent problem is that the heat of oven causes aluminum foil or whatever to actually fuse to the porcelain or coating of inner surfaces. Once this happens it cannot be removed easily if at all.
If preventing drips from reaching oven floor it is suggested placing heavy foil on the rack underneath whatever one is baking/roasting. You can extend it out a bit wider than the pan but again the foil shouldn't touch oven wall or other surfaces.
I just use old large cookie sheets lined with foil.
Gas ovens have the other worry of blocking the air holes/vents if covered with foil.
That is mostly bull crap. The floor of an electric oven with an exposed bake element is the coolest part of the oven. Putting foil under the bake element, AS LONG AS IT DOES NOT TOUCH THE ELEMENT AND YOU KEEP IT CLEAR OF THE AREA OF THE ELECTRICAL CONNECTION, does not hurt the element. Whirlpool sold heavy foil for the floors of their not-so-continuously-cleaning electric ovens. Manufacturers are writing manuals that, as you said, cover the entire line of ranges, both with and without concealed bake elements. The manuals are not only written for the stupidest consumer, but also for those who are barely able to understand English so they say don't use foil.
If you are still afraid to use foil, you can use a large aluminum cookie sheet, the kind with one upturned edge or lip and slide it under the center of the bake element, making sure that the door closes properly and that the back-most edge does not touch the bake element terminals. It's not foil. It's not gonna fuse to anything and it will protect a certain area of the oven floor.
If you are still afraid to use foil, you can use a large aluminum cookie sheet, the kind with one upturned edge or lip and slide it under the center of the bake element, making sure that the door closes properly and that the back-most edge does not touch the bake element terminals. It's not foil. It's not gonna fuse to anything and it will protect a certain area of the oven floor.
launderess
Well-known member
Am only going by what one has read and been told.
Do with the information what you like. Not my oven and not my problem.
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/...ing-your-oven-can-void-the-warranty/index.htm
Do with the information what you like. Not my oven and not my problem.
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/...ing-your-oven-can-void-the-warranty/index.htm
Using Foil In Electric Ovens
Tom Is completely correct, using heavy duty foil no the floor of an electric with an exposed element not only makes the oven easy to clean but makes the oven more efficient as well by reflecting heat into the oven.
WARNING I would never put a silicone mat on the floor of ANY oven. These mats as stated are only safe to around 500F, when you set your oven to even 350F the area under and around that red hot 1500F+ heating element easily can go over 1000F. Having worked on hundreds of ranges where people put these stupid Silicone Rubber mats on the oven floors I have seen the majority of them partly burned around the element.
When you burn SR you are releasing extremely toxic fumes, these fumes will be released into your kitchen and some will condense on the cooler food you placed in the oven to cook, some how this does not seem like a good idea to me.
Whenever I have seen these stupid mats in ovens that we are servicing I show this damage to the customer and in ever case the mats have gone in the garbage. If these mats were a good idea the stove manufacturer would have included them with the range, recommended them etc.
This use of SR in an oven is totally wrong and potentially VERY DANGEROUS.
John L.
Tom Is completely correct, using heavy duty foil no the floor of an electric with an exposed element not only makes the oven easy to clean but makes the oven more efficient as well by reflecting heat into the oven.
WARNING I would never put a silicone mat on the floor of ANY oven. These mats as stated are only safe to around 500F, when you set your oven to even 350F the area under and around that red hot 1500F+ heating element easily can go over 1000F. Having worked on hundreds of ranges where people put these stupid Silicone Rubber mats on the oven floors I have seen the majority of them partly burned around the element.
When you burn SR you are releasing extremely toxic fumes, these fumes will be released into your kitchen and some will condense on the cooler food you placed in the oven to cook, some how this does not seem like a good idea to me.
Whenever I have seen these stupid mats in ovens that we are servicing I show this damage to the customer and in ever case the mats have gone in the garbage. If these mats were a good idea the stove manufacturer would have included them with the range, recommended them etc.
This use of SR in an oven is totally wrong and potentially VERY DANGEROUS.
John L.
norgeway
Well-known member
John is correct...
I have used foil on the bottom of nearly every range I ever had, Foil wont hurt the porcelain...but burned on fruit pie juice darn well will!!!
I have used foil on the bottom of nearly every range I ever had, Foil wont hurt the porcelain...but burned on fruit pie juice darn well will!!!
customline
Well-known member
This is what I use.............
The flat disposable foil baking pans with barely any edge on it that you can place directly under the bottom burner. They can't curl and they never touch the burner whatsoever.
The flat disposable foil baking pans with barely any edge on it that you can place directly under the bottom burner. They can't curl and they never touch the burner whatsoever.
kevin313
Well-known member
I also use a disposable foil "oven liner" that sits under the bottom element. I've never had an issue with these causing any problems.
turquoisedude
Well-known member
I've been using foil on the oven floor for eons now too, sans problèmes.
Tom - I remember the instructions for the 1974 Baycrest range we had when I was a brat also recommended using foil on the removable plate that went under the oven element. This range, built by Westinghouse, was also the 'not so continuous cleaning' model. And believe me, that foil covering was a boon!
Tom - I remember the instructions for the 1974 Baycrest range we had when I was a brat also recommended using foil on the removable plate that went under the oven element. This range, built by Westinghouse, was also the 'not so continuous cleaning' model. And believe me, that foil covering was a boon!
No side taking, just 2 cents. My Mom always lined the center of her gas oven with foil, not blocking the air holes. The area under the foil did loose its gloss and became rough. Maybe dampness or defective porcelain. It was a late 60's builder model Roper with pilot lights. She did not quit using the foil she continued. As far as foil under the electric element causing damage, folks have wrapped stovetop burner pan's with foil for decades. At least until you were lucky enough to have burner bowls that went in a SC oven. In our group I always keep in mind the stove in question could be a vintage treasure or the $40. craigslister I have in the basement as a summer oven or to cook something that makes a mess like a turkey or stir fry.
NTGOT, an older oven with a pilot light is the perfect habitat to store cast iron skillets.
NTGOT, an older oven with a pilot light is the perfect habitat to store cast iron skillets.
Prior to my problem last year with the oven element burning out and fusing to the oven floor I had always used foil on the floor of my oven with no problems. I always changed the foil when it got dirty so that wasn't the problem. I'm only going by what GE told me about foil causing the problem. I was skeptical of the silicone liner, but I have been using it for a year now, I've noticed no damage to the liner near the element and I 've never noticed any fumes coming from it, I'm very sensitve to any chemical like smell. I don't dispute what others have said, I'm just relating my experience. I do know that I want to keep the oven floor covered, its a manual clean oven so why let it get any more soiled than necessary. Maybe I'll look for some of the heavy foil liners that used to be available.
Eddie
Eddie
iheartmaytag
Well-known member
Foil in the oven
I don't do it.
1st I have a hidden element so nothing on the oven floor.
2nd. I usually put a half sheet pan below something that will likely run over.
3rd. I do what the instructions say to do: No foil on oven floor. Don't remove tag from mattress. Never mix ammonia with bleach.
I'm a Romper Room DooBee
I don't do it.
1st I have a hidden element so nothing on the oven floor.
2nd. I usually put a half sheet pan below something that will likely run over.
3rd. I do what the instructions say to do: No foil on oven floor. Don't remove tag from mattress. Never mix ammonia with bleach.
I'm a Romper Room DooBee
Foil oven liners
Whirlpool may still sell the foil for their continuous clean ovens which could be used in any electric oven with an exposed bake element.
Thousands of bake element burned out in electric ovens every day. I always like how when one burns out people like to blame themselves oh I let foil touch it or I let a pie runover on it or I got some oven cleaner on it etc. The real truth is heating elements just burnt out eventually and often they short violently because of the high amperage circuit that an electric stove is attached to.
When a bake element fails and makes a hole in the floor of the Oven or welds itself to the floor of the oven it does not destroy the stove. With a new element installed the oven can go on working for decades with slight damage to the floor of the oven.
Whirlpool may still sell the foil for their continuous clean ovens which could be used in any electric oven with an exposed bake element.
Thousands of bake element burned out in electric ovens every day. I always like how when one burns out people like to blame themselves oh I let foil touch it or I let a pie runover on it or I got some oven cleaner on it etc. The real truth is heating elements just burnt out eventually and often they short violently because of the high amperage circuit that an electric stove is attached to.
When a bake element fails and makes a hole in the floor of the Oven or welds itself to the floor of the oven it does not destroy the stove. With a new element installed the oven can go on working for decades with slight damage to the floor of the oven.
Dull side up.
My dad was a GE Factory Service appliance tech. He always said foil is ok on the bottom of an electric oven as long as you put it dull side up. Shiny side up will throw off the thermostat.
Ken D.
My dad was a GE Factory Service appliance tech. He always said foil is ok on the bottom of an electric oven as long as you put it dull side up. Shiny side up will throw off the thermostat.
Ken D.
Thanks Ken for the excellent suggestion! This makes perfect sense and I will give it a try.
Eddie
Eddie
philr
Well-known member
Here's the part about using foil on the oven floor from my 1973 Frigidaire self-cleaning oven manual.
Dual side up?
I seriously doubt it would make any difference at all, but in any case it would be better to reflect and keep as much heat in the oven as possible.
I seriously doubt it would make any difference at all, but in any case it would be better to reflect and keep as much heat in the oven as possible.
Yes, dull side up.
As someone who would often use the thermocouple attachment on his Simpson 255 multimeter to perfectly set the customer's oven temperature, I doubt very much that my dad was guessing.
Ken D.
As someone who would often use the thermocouple attachment on his Simpson 255 multimeter to perfectly set the customer's oven temperature, I doubt very much that my dad was guessing.
Ken D.
kb0nes
Well-known member
The difference in reflectivity from either side of the foil is insignificant. Although it may be measurable.
Using a bare bulb thermocouple to measure oven temperature add a problem in itself. The infrared heat from both the elements acts directly on the low mass thermocouple and it skews the measurement causing it to read high and exhibit excessive variation. The only way I have seen reasonable measurements in my oven if to place the thermocouple inside a radiation shielding sleeve, otherwise the measurement trend shows wild variations. Somewhere I have graphs of with and without the sleeve. I saw differences of over 15 degrees with my thermocouple.
The mass of the thermostat sensor in the oven is much higher so as to normalize the effects of radiation so the air temp set point really shouldn't change. Imagine the difference in reflectivity just by adding the foil over the oven bottom, that could be significant. The dull vs shiny side surely isn't.
Of course the manufacturer will add wording in their documentation to not use the foil. This is all typical cover their ass boiler plate to limit liability. People do all kinda of foolish stuff and legal departments exist to protect the company. As long as the foil doesn't short the element or cover vents, physics is on the side of it causing no problem.
Damage to the inside of the oven or bonding to the porcelain? I could only see that if someone ran it through the self clean cycle of if the oven had concealed elements perhaps. Damage to the calrod bake element from radiation? I just don't see that, the thermal difference to the element could be no more then a few degrees, a small percentage of 1000 Deg F. [this post was last edited: 12/12/2015-11:10]
Using a bare bulb thermocouple to measure oven temperature add a problem in itself. The infrared heat from both the elements acts directly on the low mass thermocouple and it skews the measurement causing it to read high and exhibit excessive variation. The only way I have seen reasonable measurements in my oven if to place the thermocouple inside a radiation shielding sleeve, otherwise the measurement trend shows wild variations. Somewhere I have graphs of with and without the sleeve. I saw differences of over 15 degrees with my thermocouple.
The mass of the thermostat sensor in the oven is much higher so as to normalize the effects of radiation so the air temp set point really shouldn't change. Imagine the difference in reflectivity just by adding the foil over the oven bottom, that could be significant. The dull vs shiny side surely isn't.
Of course the manufacturer will add wording in their documentation to not use the foil. This is all typical cover their ass boiler plate to limit liability. People do all kinda of foolish stuff and legal departments exist to protect the company. As long as the foil doesn't short the element or cover vents, physics is on the side of it causing no problem.
Damage to the inside of the oven or bonding to the porcelain? I could only see that if someone ran it through the self clean cycle of if the oven had concealed elements perhaps. Damage to the calrod bake element from radiation? I just don't see that, the thermal difference to the element could be no more then a few degrees, a small percentage of 1000 Deg F. [this post was last edited: 12/12/2015-11:10]
magic_clean
Well-known member
Foil on the oven floor--not recommended!
Excerpt from a Use and Care guide for KitchenAid wall ovens, which have had hidden bake elements since 1996:
Aluminum Foil
IMPORTANT: "To avoid permanent damage to the oven bottom
finish, do not line the oven bottom with any type of foil or liner."
Excerpt from a Use and Care guide for KitchenAid wall ovens, which have had hidden bake elements since 1996:
Aluminum Foil
IMPORTANT: "To avoid permanent damage to the oven bottom
finish, do not line the oven bottom with any type of foil or liner."
The Simpson 255 multimeter was aimed at the appliance repair trade. The thermocouple attachment was designed for checking oven temperatures. Note that the more common Simpson 260 lacks the temperature scale.
See link below.
http://www.simpson260.com/255/simpson_255.htm
See link below.
http://www.simpson260.com/255/simpson_255.htm
kb0nes
Well-known member
Ken,
I know the Simpson meters well, I had one on my bench at my first electronics job 30 years ago, but this has nothing to do with the meter itself. The photo shows the meter I used last in my oven, a graphing Fluke 289. I won't mention the difference in meter accuracy, but that is because again it isn't the issue.
The issue is that a simple bead style thermocouple (as shown in the page you referenced) has a tiny amount of thermal mass. This has the advantage of making measurements really responsive since there isn't a lot of thermal "inertia" to overcome as temperatures change. In this case the infrared radiation that comes off the elements directly heats the thermocouple resulting in erroneous readings if we are trying to read air temp. I found that unless I had the thermocouple inside a radiation shield (I used an aluminum foil tube) I had no idea what I was reading, it wasn't just air temp.
There is a definite possibility that adding the foil in the bottom of the oven could cause a measurable temperature difference in the oven. Of course the different reflectivity may alter cooking just due to the infrared energy which isn't shown in the actual cavity air temp. But my point is that the difference between the shiny side and the dull side is tiny compared to installing the foil in the first place. If your thermocouple doing the measurement is unshielded and responding to the infrared energy there is a chance you could see shiny side vs dull side (reflectivity difference is ~5% at IR) but it really isn't worth any concern.
I know the Simpson meters well, I had one on my bench at my first electronics job 30 years ago, but this has nothing to do with the meter itself. The photo shows the meter I used last in my oven, a graphing Fluke 289. I won't mention the difference in meter accuracy, but that is because again it isn't the issue.
The issue is that a simple bead style thermocouple (as shown in the page you referenced) has a tiny amount of thermal mass. This has the advantage of making measurements really responsive since there isn't a lot of thermal "inertia" to overcome as temperatures change. In this case the infrared radiation that comes off the elements directly heats the thermocouple resulting in erroneous readings if we are trying to read air temp. I found that unless I had the thermocouple inside a radiation shield (I used an aluminum foil tube) I had no idea what I was reading, it wasn't just air temp.
There is a definite possibility that adding the foil in the bottom of the oven could cause a measurable temperature difference in the oven. Of course the different reflectivity may alter cooking just due to the infrared energy which isn't shown in the actual cavity air temp. But my point is that the difference between the shiny side and the dull side is tiny compared to installing the foil in the first place. If your thermocouple doing the measurement is unshielded and responding to the infrared energy there is a chance you could see shiny side vs dull side (reflectivity difference is ~5% at IR) but it really isn't worth any concern.
Using Foil Liners On Oven Floors
Whirlpool sells SHINY aluminum foil for the oven floor of their Continuous Clean ovens, And yes no one is suggesting putting foil on the floor of a hidden element electric oven, and for that matter it is really not a good idea to put foil on the floor of a gas oven even if you do not block the oven floor vents because a lot of heat in a gas oven also comes through the metal oven floor.
But I agree that using the shinny or dull or side would likely make no difference, on most aluminum foil you can hardly even see the difference from one side to the other, LOL.
Whirlpool sells SHINY aluminum foil for the oven floor of their Continuous Clean ovens, And yes no one is suggesting putting foil on the floor of a hidden element electric oven, and for that matter it is really not a good idea to put foil on the floor of a gas oven even if you do not block the oven floor vents because a lot of heat in a gas oven also comes through the metal oven floor.
But I agree that using the shinny or dull or side would likely make no difference, on most aluminum foil you can hardly even see the difference from one side to the other, LOL.
Well then it would seem that the information and equipment supplied by General Electric to their Factory Service Techs was no good. It would also seem that the makers of Reynolds aluminum foil since 1947 are mistaken and have no clue whatsoever how their product should be used, as both claim "dull side up". Oh, and as for the makers of the legendary Simpson meters, it would appear by this thread they they didn't know what the hell they were doing either.
General Electric, Reynolds Aluminum, and the Simpson Electric Company were all clueless.
Ken D.
General Electric, Reynolds Aluminum, and the Simpson Electric Company were all clueless.
Ken D.
Here we go! I was never sure of which side to use for anything. If you're covering meat, cassorole, etc. which is correct? The Reynolds non-stick (magic!) has the non sitck side on the dull side. Why is the universe so complicated?
I have in the past run across a statement from Reynolds that the shiny vs. dull sides are related to how the sheet is run through rollers during production and that there's no effective difference between them in use.
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