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This is turning into a fun debate!

John - you said that you think you stress a dishwasher more than I do. I am apt to agree with you to a point, but not because of the way you saw me loading Kevin's dishwashers. I have no experience using a top load dishwasher, and prior to your arrival we had quite a bit of trouble with stuck on yibbles (oatmeal) in Kevin's recent KA tall tub. Thus I was not using either in a way that I do at home.

The real answer there is I don't have the sheer volume of items to put in my dishwasher loads before something runs out. Yesterday I was out of cereal/soup spoons and bowls, for example, so I ran the machine. It was decently loaded, but could have been "full-er". During the holidays, when I have more people here dirtying more of everything, I stack more stuff in.

Ironically, since I ran the 1200 late last night, it was untouched today so I took a few pictures when I got home, just for this thread. This is a light load. Nothing I have ever gets pre-rinsed unless there are spoon or fork-sized CHUNCKS and wads of food that are better brushed off into the garbage. Many of my bowls have had microwaved torched sauces on them, etc. This was where my problem with the '7300 began, which worsened with my large skillet, etc.

I will now defer to my phone to upload the two pics so I don't have to transfer them from phone to computer.

G
 
I am loving this thread

This is an excellent thread.  I have decided that since I have a 1200 with the original motor and pump and the 2800 with the new motor and pump, I can run both side by side and see what happens.  Who cares if the 1200 leaks right now?  It's down in my basement where I can make as big of a mess as I want.  I'll let y'all know how it turns out, but it will be a few weeks.  I am leaving for Milwaukee right after work for a great weekend (going for the 97th birthday of a college friends grandmother - she still lives alone and is an amazing woman).  Next weekend is race weekend in Charlotte.  I plan on being very drunk on Saturday and very hungover on Sunday.  If anybody from this group is in Charlotte for the all-star race, hit me up.  We will be tailgating all day.

 

Ok, back to dishwashers.  I mentioned before that the 2800 was a lucky find for me.  The habitat store has been a trove of treasures.  I found my 1-18 there.  On the day that I found the 2800,  I spied the Hotpoint version of the 2200 at 20 paces.  I quickly went and oohed and aaahed over it and knew I was going to by it.  But I kept thinking to myself "wow, this is cool and all, but I really wish I could find a 2800".  And lo and behold (I don't know how I missed it), I looked to the right and a 2800 was sitting right there.  Truly a gift from God. 
 
Gordon,

Not to get off topic (because this is a great thread), but just one quick question.

Is that vintage Fiestaware in your GE?? The original orangish-red Fiestaware is radioactive as Uranium was used for the colorant. Thus they are valuable. I have only one radioactive plate which I use a geiger counter on for demonstration purposes, when I am teaching, but would love to have a whole set.

Mark,

Does your GSD1200 have the third final rinse, or is the model with two final rinses? I think the 1200S has the three final rinses and the 1200G, just two.
 
Barry,

I have a vintage orange Fiesta Wear plate.  It is probably 60 or 70+ years old.  I was given the orange, green, blue, and yellow plates by a very dear friend who is 73 y/o.  These were the only pieces left of her mother's set that my friend, who was trying to show her mom she was a big girl and could clean off the dining room table all by herself, accidentally broke when she was a little girl.  I never knew the orange was radioactive!  I  l o v e  Fiestawear and have quite a bit of it; though not vintage.  The Dish Barn in Flat Rock, NC has sold Fieata Wear by the piece for decades.  It used to be very inexpensive.  Operative phrase here is "used to be."  You can still by a four piece place setting for $28.00 at the Dish Barn but they make up their profit margin on accessories - of which they have an unbelievable stock.   
 
@bwoods

You know, that is a good question.  I honestly don't remember.  The dishwasher came with the house, but I put my favorite Frigidaire in within a month or two of moving in.  The 1200 hasn't been cranked up in about 5 years, except when I was working on the 2800 this past winter I put the 1200 up on the table to see what parts I was going to need to order for it as well.

 

I guess when I get it started I will have to document that as well.

 

Looks like I need to get by but in gear!
 
It will probably start just fine, Mark, but to be safe you might want to take the cover off of the sump and see if you can turn the blade on the soft food waste disposer.

If the motor shaft is seized you can lubricate it a little before starting it up.
 
Barry -

My Fiestaware is all quite new. The oldest piece in my pictures is the seafoam green bowl, which we found at a consignment shop. Most of the rest was given to me as birthday and Christmas gifts over the last couple years. My Mom and Sister have it too - mine is probably the smallest collect, my Mother's the largest. She has 12-14 dinner plates among lots of other stuff. A few of hers are older also (I got some Pink/Rose color on ebay) but none of ours dates back to the time they made food glow in the dark.

My 1200 is a G model (my last one was an L). It does two rinses in Energy Saver and Light Wash, but three on the Normal and Potscrubber. Last year when I posted getting this machine, I posted also that I found the owner's manual for my L model. It shows doing two rinses in all cycles I believe. I can dig out the pics of that if you'd like to see them again, or they're in the 2011 archives.

Gordon
 
Nice collection, Gordon! I'll check out the archives for your previous posting on the 1200.
 
Owned one of these in the mid-1980's. It performed flawlessly, though IIRC, it wasn't all that quiet. Too bad GE can't bring this kind of quality back to their current line of dishwashers.
 
Very interesting about Fiestware and Uranium... There was a rumour in my family that a certain someone who worked out at a Uranium mine had a tin full of yellow-cake, and that he showed it to some close relatives.

To this day, that fella doesn't know where on earth it ended up. Some poor people are gonna have Tomacco growing in their yard rather than cucumbers or tomatoes :(

I do also remember reading about the differences in the GE Potscrubber cycle progression. I think the M/V and L used a silly method of pre washing/rinsing 3 times before main washing (where the S may skip some of these), but would only rinse ONCE after the main wash in energy saver/light wash. How the h*** is that supposed to wash the suds off of the dishes?
Sorry, but I prefer my 1200S Potscrubber:)
 
From the eyes of someone who things rinsing is a good idea:

What the hell were GE thinking using just one post wash rinse in their later 1200 series?
Then, in their "oh so advanced" computer model, can't strip out a prewash for lighter soiled "normal mode" dishes.
Here's what I'd say to that designer: "Smart one, dumb one!"

@kenmoreguy64, GadgetGary

Could we (or I) see a video of you showing a wash load in the machine, and starting it up (with the door shut)? I'd love to hear the wash action and sound of the motor in these things, and of course, the 1200's cute little cycle progression clock.

Did the 1200S feature a special "rapid advance mode" that allowed it to skip pre washes and rinses as was necessary? How did the "Long Main-Wash" and Rinse cycles work...
Oooo, so exciting for me :)
 
By the way guys, I have the user guides on my PC (from the GE website) of the 1200S, M/V and L along with the 2800's user guide.
So you can just tell me to refer to the appropriate guide, if necessary :D
 
GE DW Motors

Barry thanks for all the provided information and your thoughts on the two types of motors used in GE DWs, but I wanted to add a few thoughts and corrections.

 

The original style motor used by was a shaded pole motor and while technically an induction motor SP motors are far less efficient than a regular induction motor such as the types used in about any other DW. The GE style SPM is easily the least efficient motor EVER used in a home DW and is less that 20% efficient.

 

More torque does not equal more water moved, both style pumps use the same size impellers so in order to move more water you need more speed and the PSC motor is more powerful.

 

When GE started switching to the better PSC motors they were not Chinese, but made by Seimans and they are rated at 1.45 amp draw, GE later went to a Chinese supplier. But GE simply could meet energy standards with the original inefficient motor.

 

Many DWs do not wash tall items in the corners of the top rack including, but not limited to, ALL GE DWs with a wash tower, All MT RR DWs, WP built Tall Tub DWs and many other DWs. I have been repairing DWs too long and have heard hundreds of complainants about this problem, just last Friday a customer was telling how things don't get clean in the corners of her basic GE DW with the older SPM, and of coerce I thought of you as she was telling me this, LOL.

 

Hope you get a chance to visit and we can do some testing or post some videos of your results, John.
 
Can someone post a vid, plz...

This would be so great... To see the display and hear the sound that it makes...
 
I would love to visit you, John. But that is a bit of a drive for me, hehe.

The people who complain that corner items are not getting clean are the ones who are blocking the path of the tower jet spray. Most people do not think of such things, so I believe you do get a lot of customer comlplaints. Dishwashers are one device that are at the mercy of the consumers ability to use it properly. As I mentioned, the lower wash arm is not designed to wash anything in the upper rack of the TW GE's. The upper racked is washed independently of the lower by the wash tower. GE designed their tower wash machines for "random loading." However, it wasn't designed for consumer ignorance- which unfortunately abounds! :)

However, a tall object, like a pot that is high enough to interfere with the line of fire of the jet streams will, of course, prevent an object from being washed properly. It's not an intuitive thing for many people. I site my mom and sister as prime examples. When they complained that something didn't get clean, its invariably the operators fault, not the machines. I have talked myself blue in the face explaining how soiled surfaces should face the center of the machine and don't block the tower opening and don't put tall pots in the lower rack where they can block flow.

It seems to go it one ear and out the other as I get the deer in the headlight stare.

When water exits the power tower it comes out at an angle from below, when it hits a glass, the strong forces deflect it upward into the glass, bowl, pot, ets.

GE would not keep a design for 49 years it you couldn't put objects in the corner of the upper rack. Or, they would at least block the corners of the rack so you couldn't place objects there.

Increasing torque for a given system, will overcome frictional forces and drag and result in greater flow of a fluid, even if the velocity of the stream remains the same.

Look in a Grainger catalogue, etc. Look at raw pumps. They usually have a chart for pumping rates vs. hp. See the data for the pumping rate increase, when you use a higher hp motor, even though the rpms stay the same.

I would step out on a limb and say the typical member of this site, probably loads a dishwasher more intelligently than the average consumer. We may cram a lot of dishes in, in odd looking manners with our "Bob Loads", but I think most of us watch out for blocked wash arms, objects protruding into water paths, etc.

So, I ask people on this site to tell us if they cannot wash items in the corners of the top rack of the thier Tower Wash GE's. If you do not believe me, for whatever reason, let's see what the concensus is. I think it will be quite interesting.

Plus Mark said he was going to do some peformance testing of his own. I am anxious to see his results. Performance testing is fun!!
 
Now I really have to get my A## in gear

Looks like I have my memorial day weekend cut out for me - I'm going to clear my work table of the kitchenaids and hook up the 1200 and the 2800.  Right now I am planning on blocking the spray from the lower rack with sheet pans placed as horizontally as possible, or just some heavy loading of pots.

 

Are there any specific tests (soils, objects, placement), etc. that anybody wants to see?  I am planning on testing the 1200 with the original pump (with the small leak), and the 2800 with the new pump assembly.

 

As a side note, I enjoyed your post bwoods, but I think you might be off just a little regarding pumps/flow. 

 

" ....result in greater flow of a fluid, even if the velocity of the stream remains the same."

 

As the size of the tubing to the nozzles, and the nozzle openings themselves are constant, flow and velocity are directly related.  I.E. velocity can not increase without flow increasing, and vice versa.

 

"...They usually have a chart for pumping rates vs. hp. See the data for the pumping rate increase, when you use a higher hp motor, even though the rpms stay the same."

 

Generally, HP changes in pumps are either a) to handle differences in head pressure developed or b) to drive different size impellers / housings.  If your downstream head requirements are the same, the pump impeller and housing are the same, and the rpms are the same, then a using another motor with a higher HP does not result in greater flow.

 

I will point out that Fluid Mechanics was my least favorite subject in college (well, after control theory at least), and it has been years since I cracked that book.  If I have stated the above incorrectly, please correct me.

 

 

 

 

 
 
Mark, like you, many moons have passed since I studied fluid flow dynamics. I have not altogether pleasant memories of trudging through Bernoulli's Equation while doing my homework.

Yes, what you say rings true. The variables are interdependent. You change one parameter and the dynamics of the whole system are altered.

John,

Where did you obtain your data??

There is no rating label on GE's non-PSC motors or their China produced PSC's. I can see that you would know that the impellers are the same or close as you say they are interchangeable. I doubt if the PSC motors operate at the same RPM as the non-PSC as there is not enough power output.

For a given pump, input power required increases as the square of the shaft speed. Even with the ineffeciencies, a 1.8 amp motor cannot compete with a 5.5 amp. As mentioned earlier, the maximum efficiency of a PSC over a non-PSC is 30 to 40 percent maximum.

Two other bits of data you mentioned that I am curious about.

"GE's shaded pole motor is only 30 percent efficient."

A 74 percent efficient motor is considered to be VERY inefficient. A typical induction motor runs in the 80 to 90 percent range, with the low 80's being considered an inefficient motor. I don't think a manufacturer could
make an electric motor that efficient if they tried.

I don't even think the little electric motor kits kids can buy, where they wind there own field and rotor could be that inefficient.

If that were true, GE's 5.5 amp motor, roughly 660 watts @ 120 volts would be producing 462 watts of waste heat energy. In other words, you would be having the heat, coming out from under your dishwasher, of four 100 watt light bulbs + a 60 watt bulb (actually more as light bulbs convert a portion of the energy to light). You would be getting pretty close to the rating of the dishwashers heating element that is used to heat the water and dry the dishes! These are often in the 500 to 600 watt range.

I think what you may have see, John, is that the starting torqure efficiency rating of a shaded pole motor. Starting torque of a tpical shaded pole motor is 40 to 50 percent of the full load torque.

I think GE did a good job of matching the motor to the task, as the starting load of the dishwasher is constant, and low. The exception where one might need more starting torque that what a shaded pole motor can supply, is the case where something has jammed the impeller or food disposer blade.

This is consistent with my obersvations as I have never had a GE straight inductiond motor stop in mid cycle. However, I have had cases where the motor would not turn, when the machine was first started, due to material jamming the impeller such as calcium chunks and drinking straws.

The last bit of data, that I am curious where you found it from, is:

"GE shaded pole motors is the most inefficient motor ever put in a dishwasher" How did you come by the data that supports this statement. Did you run a dynamometer test on the motor of every brand of dishwasher ever made? :)

Also, I have never dissasembled a GE motor to see if it was shaded pole or split-phase. So I am taking your word that it is shaded pole. Shaded pole motors are commonly used in record player turntables and low fractional horsepower applications.

Yes, I see drain pumps in newer washers and dishwasher are shaded pole, but they are usually under 2.00 amps. But, it does seem plausible, that older GE motors could be shaded pole, as you don't need high starting torque..and shaded pole motors are among the most reliable and long lasting off all motors as you have no starting windings, nor capacitors to fail.

Anyway, my personal opinion is that GE did a good job of matching the motor characteristic to the task required in their pre-Chinese PSC motored dishwashers.
 
GE DW Motors

Barry you need to get some facts together not just a bunch of your opinions if you want to have serious discussion. The 1.45 amps is printed on the Siemens motor and my testing verifies this rating. Ge started to abandon those crappy motors almost 20 years ago on their better model DWs.

 

Yes the old GE SPM do put out OVER 400 Watts of waste heat. What seems sensible to you does not make it true. As refrigerators have moved away from SPMs for fans power consumption has in most cases gone down 25-30 watts to 4 watts and the new motors have more starting torque. And even though the old GE SP DW motors were simple they probably had 20 or more times the failure rate of the newer PSC motors, in fact I can not recall a single instance of one of the newer motors failing. The SPM all though the late 1980s on had serious problems with loose fans and open windings, we saw hundreds fail.

 

One of the most common problems with the old SPM was VERY LOW STARTING TORQUE. Ask ANY GE repair person how many hundreds if not thousands of GE DWs with SPM that would not start because the motor is so weak that it could not overcome the water seals friction. We did and still do many of these every month where we have to turn the HUGE fan by hand to get it started again every time someone lets a GE DW sit unused for a few weeks.

 

And your ridiculous notion that water will travel horizontally a foot or more and then jump straight up into a glass in the corner of a rack,,,,,, You need to prove this as many here have seen DWs work with plastic fronts or even watching a lawn sprinkler will show that nothing like this ever  happens, maybe in a different universe or planet LOL.
 

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