Glimpses of the future or gimmicks that'll fade into obscurity?

[joeekaitis]

I'm posting this here because it's as much about vintage as modern dishwashers.

Wash tubes, spinning racks, "water blades" and other self-styled "dishwasher of the future" designs have come and gone, but the good ol' spray arm soldiers on.

Kenmore and Frigidaire aren't abandoning it but two modifications of the lower spray arm in their Elite and Gallery dishwashers respectively have an air of gimmickry, given that most Consumer Reports "Best Buy" rated models earn their blue check-marks without 'em.

Kenmore calls theirs 360 PowerWash Technology and your humble observer can already see a potential point-of-failure. That exposed gear drive is just waiting to be jammed by, say, an overlooked pinto bean, stopping the magic motion and resulting in a load you have to wash again.

Not to be out-gimmicked, er, uh, outdone, Frigidaire offers <a href="" target=new> Orbit Clean<a>. The blue spinner sprayer appears to be pressure-driven, but that means it would be the first part to feel the effect of a pressure drop due to motor aging or impeller wear.

Both designs overlook the fact that water, like sound, ricochets all around. Load any dishwasher properly and every load comes out sparkling. They're solutions in search of a problem.

Like the designs mentioned in the first paragraph, wait 10 years and see if any become commonplace through reverse engineering or as patents expire. My prediction: they'll all have been replaced by something else in top-o'-the-line models and they still won't clean any better.

 

[qualin]

Part of me loves to watch gimmickry like this...

I agree that the powerwash system looks kind of like a dumb idea.

 

[tolivac]

Both of those could be jammed by a fallen utensil!They are interesting to watch.Again the doors on the machines should be transparent so you could be entertained.and you would be able to see if the sprayers were jammed by a pinto bean or untensil.

 

[washer111]

@tolivac

Sadly, having a window in the dishwasher just means people have to look at a grungy window before the machine is operating (which could be days for some people!)

Here's a gimmick that will fade away - those magnetic water softeners! They work about as well as a laundry ball (i.e. a FAILURE!) Those things have a max efficiency of about 50%, so they work, but they don't. They keep scale off your pipes and surfaces, but don't stop it in your hot water system.
Honestly, how magnets can actually change the structure of water absolutely beats me!

 

[dishwasherrules]

A gimmick returns

Frigidaire's Orbit Clean is just the same gimmick featured by the European Electrolux and Zanussi's dishwasher range and is named FlexiSpray: . I know that Electrolux own Frigidaire in the US, but according to me Orbit Clean/FlexiSpray is just a redisign of the washing technology of the "dynamic" dishwashers produced by Zanussi in the 60s (I have something on that, I'll try to post some scans here later).
If I lived in the US and had to buy a new dishwasher, I'd go for a Kenmore 360 PowerWash!!
Ivan

 

[tomturbomatic]

If you think that these wash systems could be damaged by a fallen utensil, you should have been around in the 50s when cutlery could fall into a Bakelite impeller and take out a wing or a chunk out of the hub that kept water away from the gravity drain opening. In either case, the machine was out of commission. If it was not stopped quickly, the unbalanced load on the motor shaft could spell bigger problems.

 

[tolivac]

Yes,I could understand how an impellor dishwasher could be damaged by a utensil or something falling into the impeller.The blade breaks,sending the impeller out of balance-hard on the motor bearings-severe vibration damaging other equipment in the machine,and the load,-and if the machine is portable-could envision it walking across the floor.built in-vibrating the cabinets causing contents to fall.I wouldn't think the wash spray mechanisms in those KN and Frigidaire machines being damaged by something falling into them-they just won't work properly.And the dishes would still probably be dirty.Wouldn't the window in the machine self clean as the dishwasher works-maybe Robert has the answer for this-since he put windows in the doors of some of his dishwashers to see the washing actions.
As a child-do remember an impeller style portable GE dishwasher-we were lucky in not having anything fall into the propeller.Then I wonder for dishwashers that need a new impeller---maybe an outboard motor propeller would work if it could fit the motor shaft?Something I guess to try if you can't get the orig impeller.
the only thing the magnetic water treatment devices-filter out any iron or steel particles in the water?Only use I could think of for them-and if your water has those-better call the water company or check your plumbing!

 

[vacbear58]

A gimmick returns

I had a SMEG dishwasher for a couple of years (2000 - 2002) which had an apparently similar arrangement to both of these with an extra spray attached to one end of the lower wash arm - frankly I did not see much difference - it did not seem much better than the 1994 Indesit which preceeded it

Al

 

[dj-gabriele]

I currently have a SMEG with the orbital system and an Indesit without, the SMEG definitely cleans much better than the Indesit machine so at least in my opinion it's not a complete gimmick!

The difference is not as visible in the corners as it is on the sides of tall pans!

 

[kenmore71]

I was particularly struck by the language used in the video. It "blasts" dishes with water? The video showed what looked to be a very gentle rain shower! Now, a blast of water would be the single spray arm of a KDS-16. Heck, even the WP/KM Power Clean/Ultra Wash was a blast compared to what I saw in that video.

 

[dj-gabriele]

Yeah, more pissing than anything else indeed

 

[jaxsunst]

than again, people said that about dual-action agitators...........

 

[william637]

I'm with kenmore71

It is an interesting concept - didn't Frigidaire have a similar system in the 70's?

In the video demonstrations I have seen, there are two problems with the 360 power wash. A) there is not enough pressure/velocity to scour dishes (all it will do is mist and soak them). B) the entire spray arm moves far too quickly (a moving spray arm on yet another moving spray arm means the weak spray never has period where it is "scrubbing" a surface). These machines are about as effective as getting your fingertips wet and flinging water at your dishes. Sure, if the water is hot enough and you flick long enough, you will be able to rinse some residues away - but you aren't going to clean really dirty things that way.

 

[brummybear]

Asking for it !

It's just asking for it to break !

 

[qualin]

I'm suddenly reminded of an Episode of "Home Improvement" where Tim Allen tries to soup up his dishwasher and fails miserably at it.

These systems would work so much better if they moved so much more water.

 

[bwoods]

not new technology

Mark, you are so right, that little gentle rainshower from the anemic new motors is laughable in comparison with the typhoon force blasting from a vintage KitchenAid or Maytag Reverse Rack!!

As far as lower spray arms not rotating in a purely circular manner, that is about 30 year old technology.

GE's Multi-Orbit wash arm came out in the early 80's. In the early 90's they had a variation called the Smart Wash arm which had smaller independent little wash arms at the end of the main arm.

It seems the multi-orbit designs are for better coverage and have little to do with actual scrubbing ability. Water pressure ("force") and volume play the largest role in scrubbability.

The anemic little rainshower, I saw in both videos, explains why a 30 year old GE, Maytag or KitchenAid can do in 45 minutes, what many modern machines can't do in 3 hours.

If you have a big dinner party, you could have three loads done in, let's say a GE Multi-Orbit 2800, in less time than you could do one load in many of these toy-motored modern machines. I would step out on a limb and say odds are the pots and pans would be a lot cleaner, too.

If your modern machine was also one of the newer ones without a built-in food disposer, you would also have a pile of garbage in the bottom of the machine when the cycle is done. It's a great feeling to know that every drop of water, that washed and rinsed the dishes you eat off of, was filtered through garbage.

I thought technology was supposed to move forward, not backward.

 

[tomturbomatic]

What you all are missing is that when you use so little water, you can't use a powerful pump. If you take in to account that a good portion of the water is going to be in the air at any given time during a wash or rinse period, either going up into the racks or falling back down, there is not enough water in the sump to provide a powerful pump with enough water over the intake to enable it to supply a powerful spray constantly. This is the principle behind the WP built machines using that pulsing spray for the heavy soil spray section in their lower rack. It is only when the pump is off and all of the water is in the sump that there is enough water over the pump intake for the pump to start up and give a powerful blast.

I guess, in the end, we who remember when dishwashers did a powerful cleaning job are a vanishing minority. Many women believed the dishes had to be rinsed of all soil before being loaded, maybe to keep the machine clean, I don't know. Enough people grew up believing that so most modern dishwashers do not have to do more than they do, which is not much. They don't have to wash. They don't have to thoroughly rinse and most do a poor job of drying.

 

[bwoods]

overpumping

Some, but not all, of the newer dishwashers actually use the same amount of water, per fill, as their older counterparts. The way some of the manufacturers have reduced water consumption is to have only 4 or sometimes just 3 water changes. I have a newer Maytag than does this.

So cases like these, there is no problem of overpumping the sump, there is as much water in the bottom of the tub as ever. So they have gone to these toy motor powered pumps not to stop overpumping, but to reduce power consumption, and get an Energy Star rating. Hence, you ge the tinkle shower, like you saw in the videos, as opposed to the hurricanic force power jets of the Maytag RR, the Whirlpool PowerClean module or the early Kitchen-Aids.

What it appears they have done, to make up (or attempted to make up) for these anemic water forces and lack of water changes, is to increase cycle times. For most machines I have looked at 2 to three hours seems the norm. Of course, we all have seen the dreaded new Whirlpools with the laughable overnight cycle that is still trying to finish your dinner dishes while you are eating breakfast.

 

[washer111]

With all this talk of dishwashers pissing on dishes lately, I should chime in and mention this about our lovely DishDrawer (and probably annoy you all some more).

No sump area for the recirc water, it just sucks everything thru the filter plate and into the impeller (I think, anyway!)
Despite the low water use for each fill (around 2.3L/.60US Gal), it still manages very decent performance in the shorter cycles. The normal cycle is around 1Hr 45min, heavy is around 10 minutes Longer, and Eco Normal (you can select Eco in any mode) is about 2Hr 10 mins.
Before the detergent bubbles up, you can hear some pretty serious spray power (especially in the lower drawers).

Attached is a link of a DishDrawer starting a normal cycle (Prewash). Not from me, but what I believe to be a fellow member of the forum here.
By the way, the amount of water use has decreased in recent years, as F&P have removed prewash from a number of cycles (on some models, on the Heavy has a Prewash, and may also have some extra rinses in-between it and the main wash).
From the video, you can see a fairly decent wash pressure - of course nothing in comparison to old GE Potscrubbers with Wash Towers, Maytag Reverse Racks, or even 1950's style Impeller and roto-rack models, but still pretty decent by todays standards, and WISPER QUIET!