Hard Towels

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Thanks for providing the scources of your wisdom, now we`re finally on the same page.
Confirms most of what I wrote, except that I had no idea that the fatty tails of those cationic surfactants are so "strong" (or is it the water loving heads so weak ?) that emulsifers have to be added.
I knew about bad water solubility but couldn`t imagine it was so bad.
Now I can finally understand when you simplify things to "it`s just fats and soap".
 
Now that we can hopefully agree that Tallow dimethyl ammonium chloride and similar compounds (other ester quats) are a different beast than Tallow dissolved in Sodium tallowate (superfatted soap) I`d like to point out the disadvantages of the latter.

-Just fats dissolved in soap would probably be extremly irritant to the skin because the soap (or detergent) content would remain in clothes.
-If natural soap was used as a solvent think of the mess (soapscum) you`d get when using this FS in hard water.
-Just think of how clothes would smell when pure tallow gets rancid in clothes.

But again I get your point, after all unlike most other surfactants those quats used in FS show nearly no detergency and are indeed of a rather greasy nature.

How is it going with your towels Ben ? Have you been successful with the vinegar treatment ?[this post was last edited: 11/24/2017-05:54]
 
I confess to being a bit perplexed by the usage in the industry of fabric softener and fabric conditioner.

As far as I can tell, the manufacturers use these terms interchangeably, and products advertised as "fabric conditioner" can be labeled "fabric softener" and vice versa.

Often those labeled "fabric conditioner" may be loaded up with more exotic fragrances, and if you don't want your laundry smelling like a cheap whorehouse, you might opt for a "free and clear" product which I invariably find is labeled (and advertised) as a softener.

So the nub of this problem is which will leave one's towels both soft and absorbant?

Well, depends. My take on this is that they all have long chain fatty acids in them, so they all have the capability of rendering fabrics less water absorbent. Makes little difference if the fatty acids come from cows, chickens, soybeans, or avocados.

Previous suggestions to tumble rather than line dry, or a combination thereof, will leave a softer towel the absorbency of which is not compromised. Vinegar doesn't seem, in my experience, to influence softness or the lack thereof much, but it does seem to cut down on residual sudsing in the final rinse.

Hard water can result in harsh results and STPP is probably the best water softener one can add to one's wash water. I have however seen statements here that STPP can impart harshness by adhering to fabric fibers. I would think this runs counter to the way STPP works, by complexing with hard water minerals so that they no longer form sticky precipitates with detergents and don't stick to fabrics and do get rinsed away in the final rinse(s). Of course if one uses too much of anything it can not get rinsed away and cause problems related to that situation. And perhaps STPP is reactive enough that if it doesn't find hard water minerals to latch onto, it might try to latch onto fabric fibers. Just speculation there, but if that is the case, one should be careful not to add more STTP than is necessary to soften the water and break mineral laden dirt from the fabric. In any case, I've found it helpful to monitor the sudsing during the rinse cycle. If the suds don't go away it can indicate too much detergent for the level of water hardness and fabric soiling, which in turn can result in harsher results. For a while I had to resort to adding little or no detergent (powder or liquid) to loads of towels to keep residual sudsing down. The final results were softer than before, and the towels (for bath) were basically clean from the hot wash water and multiple cold rinses used. I was able then to gradually add much more limited amounts of detergent to maintain those desirable results.

In other words, more is not necessarily better.
 
From what I gather the term Fabric Conditioner can mean a lot but is usually a step above Fabric Softener. This could be the addition of polymeres, silicones or even quats based on silicones.
The clear products are usually called conditioners too. Apparently they use unsaturated fatty acids (wich are fluid at room temperature) for manufacturing the cationic surfactants and different solvents. This results in a more transparent product which can penetrate the fibers more deeply and doesn`t mess too much with absorbancy.
Traditional FS`s are milky emulsions because their fatty acid chains are solid at room temperature.

The more I read and learn about the stuff the less I am willing to use it. But I guess old habits die hard. Anyway it is an interesting topic !
 
I'm So Glad

the vinegar helped! I just never could tolerate that waxy, slimy sensation of liquid fabric softener--rather like a combination of snot and semen.

I'm a real user of white vinegar around the house. It's so cheap and it does so many things well.
 
Liberatordeluxe,
you need a good rinse. Tesco powder contains quite a good ammount of zeolites, which are known for making fabrics rough, because they are rinsed out very hard. Good rinse will give you soft fabrics even without the evil softener.
 
johnrk

I too hate the feeling of too much fabric softener! A lot of my relatives wash a lot in cold and warm with copious amounts of Downy. It makes the clothes feel even more unclean. Fortunately I wash my towels in hot all the time and it removes a lot of the residue before FS is dispensed.
 
Tesco

Living in Texas, I have no idea about Tesco powder. Is there a reason that it would have more zeolites than other laundry detergents? I went looking on Wikipedia and was surprised to discover that my cat's litter is likely made from zeolites.
 
Tesco

Living in Texas, I have no idea about Tesco powder. Is there a reason that it would have more zeolites than other laundry detergents? I went looking on Wikipedia and was surprised to discover that my cat's litter is likely made from zeolites.
 
I’m with Al on the dryer. Towels are the one thing that always go in the dryer. I could live on a breezy summer meadow for 365 days a year but would still put towels in the dryer
 
Just got back from my Dad's in NJ for the Holiday.

I always bring my own Towels. It is strictly a Cold Water Wash household. I was cooking one night and picked up a Dish Towel that smelled like what would imagine... "A Jock or Ass-ole in High School that never brought home his towel or Gym Clothes for the entire Year".

Well, back in the 60s and 70s we had to be responsible for out Gym Stuff.

I remember 4 years ago I went to stay there for 3 weeks. While no one was home, I ran the FL washer on a Sanitize with Bleach before I could wash my own.

I was ready to go to the "Coin O Mat" down the street. They should call them "Bill O Mats" these days
 
Cold Water Wash

has always mystified me. I understand that there are some woolens and a very few other items that require cold, but I've never owned any of them.

Do people wash their damn dishes in cold water? I sure don't. Do these cold water fans think they don't put off sebum, that slime common to all of us? Are they just cheap? Do they take cold showers?

I'm fortunate; I only had one gf in the 80's who liked cold water washing. But we never lived together and I didn't mess with her clothes--for long.
 
Which powder in the UK has the least zeolites?

liberatordeluxe, brands like Persil, Surf, Ariel, Daz, Bold contain <5% zeolites.
Even though I don't recommend them, the liquid detergents do not contain zeolites or other insoluble or precipitating ingredients.
However, all of the modern phosphate-free powder formulas contain high amounts of sodium carbonate which leads again to the need of good rinsing.
 
"Breezy summer meadow..."

Oh, how I want to be there...! Lol

Liberatordeluxe:
Try drastically reducing the amount of powder used when washing towels. I find that if I wash a half load of towels, I can get away with only one-half of a Tesco Bio tablet. Similarly, 25ml of Daz powder or 25 ml of Formil powder. But then, my towels are only lightly soiled. If I put in too much detergent it causes an overflow of foam.

Heavy soiling (dirt, medical ointments, massage oils) obviously needs a greater amount of detergent.
 
Hard towels

Towels always go in the dryer.

If line dried, sever things can help.

Proper rinsing is key then. However, if your water isn't particulary soft, you need some acidic additive in the final rinse. Preferably set a rinse hold and let them soak in that for an hour. That dissolves any hard water depositis.
Then spin. Shake well before line drying.
Don't let them dry for to long. 24h max.
Take of when dry or ever so slightly damp.
Then, steam iron. Highest temp, lots of steam.

Once in a while, a long boilwash without any detergent. That softened old used towels for me by removing ANY detergent residue.

Otherwise: Get a nice cheap heatpump tumble dryer. Cheap AEGs should be avaible for 400 bucks or there abouts.
AEGs heatpump system is known for fluffy, evenly dried loads.
 
I’d say the problem could be the Tesco detergent. (To those of you in the USA and elsewhere, Tesco is a major UK supermarket chain)

I haven’t tried them myself, but Lidl and Aldi’s store brand detergents are usually rated much better than the main stream supermarket brands. As far as I know Tesco iuses Persan and McBride to produce own brands for household products. The formulas would vary quite a bit depending on the price point.

If you want to avoid Persil and Ariel, try Daz. Surf is still for some reason just single enzyme but it washes well and they’re both tier two for P&G and Unilever.

The other solution is use liquid and bleach. If you’re washing towels just throw in a scoop of peroxide based wash booster like Vanish (or a store brand) or Ace liquid bleach - does a great job. It’s basically just peroxide.

Try washing your towels with Ariel Liquid or a Persil S&M bio. If you want whiter - add bleach.

They’ll be much softer, even without conditioner.

Also Comfort Pure in my opinion is the best conditioner on the market here. I can’t stand Lenor (P&G)
 

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