Has there been any solution to spider-arm corrosion?

[tomdawg]

what is the neptune spider made of?

is it aluminum? curious, because i have never seen a neptune spider corrode much.
I have a neptune currently running at 21 years old and never had an issue.

I have a hard time believing too little detergent, but again, I can see John's argument of why- being in the field of repairing them with all sorts of style of washing.

my observations.
my Grandmother is a big user of hot water, lots of detergent, bleach and fabric softener.. her washer died in 5 years.

my mom has a neptune and hers is still going strong 15 years- she uses hot water, little to no bleach, and no fabric softener- she uses little detergent. her bearings went out at 12 years. I repaired it and there was no gunk. whatsoever. the spider was in perfect condition. however, i made sure she maintained her machine using washer cleaner and or bleach to keep it clean.

 

[rfehr613]

As far as galvanic corrosion is concerned, outside factors aside, the life of the anode will depend on the mass of material and the surface area between mating materials. If one manufacturer uses thin stamped aluminum spiders, it will most definitely have a considerably shorter life than one designed from substantially thicker cast aluminum or aluminum plate. Similarly, a spider arm with small connection arms that mate with the drum on areas not much bigger than the bolt head will likely fail somewhere in the arm in a shorter period than a comparable spider arm with beefier arms and larger mating surfaces.

So maybe there are manufacturers who conservatively design their arms to account for this? Hopefully so. What I've seen of pictures of Samsung spider arms online leans much more towards the thinner stamped aluminum design. Then again, our Samsung washer is presumed to be about 13 years old (only owned house for 5 years, but whole home was rehabbed in 2007), and has only been out of balance for the last year or less. But when it comes to corrosion, there are sooooo many factors involved. Its nearly impossible to predict service life of metals subject to corrosion sometimes.

Case in point, I just inspected a 2-cell aluminum corrugated structural plate pipe-arch culvert built around 1990 that is riddled with holes from corrosion; there's a pipe arch 30ft up the road that is made from the exact same corrugated aluminum plate from the same manufacturer and it is under the same amount of fill on the same roadway, and it has zero measurable corrosion. Another example is with epoxy-coated rebar in bridge decks. My one professor I had at Virginia Tech conducted decades of research on ECR, and he and others in the industry have been unable to accurately predict or consistently replicate in the lab the accelerated corrosion issues that are unique to ECR. They know it's due to the porosity of epoxy coatings exposed to chlorides creating HCl acid that becomes trapped in the epoxy coating and destroys the metal very very fast, but they still could not consistently replicate this in testing. Despite that, there have been a number of deck collapses in Virginia and other states that are attributed to the use of ECR, so VDOT has banned its use on state projects.

Point is, a lot of times it's very very difficult to predict the speed of corrosion or even identify the individual causes of corrosion.

 

[yogitunes]

common sense would tell anyone.....if its a matter of something like the two metals together....

then every single machine made would have the same issues.....

I have several Neptunes....never seen or even heard of a corrosion issue with the spiders....still wonder too, why dont mine have bearing/seal failures?

I also have a few FD round door units....I have heard of spider issues....but have to wonder, why dont mine have those issues?...

is it the environmental conditions?...water hardness?....detergent/bleach/softener?...and yet one factor that no one wants to consider, could it be operator error?

 

[rfehr613]

Assuming every machine is made with two dissimilar metals in contact, then all washers DO have the issue, technically. It's not pseudoscience; just open literally any materials textbook you can get your hands on and you'll see. As for the longevity of the anode and whether or not it ends up being the cause of failure at some point during the life of the washer, that's very much a function of numerous different things as I detailed in my last post. It may well take 50+ years for the spider arm to corrode to the point that it compromises strength in a given washer, but that doesn't change the fact that it IS actively corroding the entire time. Materials don't corrode at a fixed rate, there are so many other factors involved, surely including user error too (e.g., not cleaning out a clogged filter).

This is also assuming all these washers do in fact have dissimilar metals in contact with each other and have no galvanic protection system. I'm no appliance repairman, so I haven't been inside a ton of washers to know for sure. But I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if some manufacturers use a buffer material in between the spider arm and drum and/or employ active galvanic protection systems to avoid this issue. However, probably the most economical solution is just to design the spider arm to be thicker to account for material loss from the galvanic corrosion, and that is something I've seen evidence of simply by researching this topic online.

 

[bradfordwhite]

6600+ views? Can it be true?

Please save the spiders in your washer. Leave the door and detergent drawer open when not in use so your spider can dry out and breath.

Don't over fill. Don't use so much detergent that there is excess sudsing.

It's pretty simple and your washer won't weave a nasty web of disappointment.

 

[combo52]

Spider Corrosion

Too little detergent is a major reason for the gunk buildup including fabric softener  and corrosion, plenty of detergent does not allow FS and gunk to buildup, it is almost impossible to use so much detergent as to cause harm to any washers components unless suds are overflowing inside the cabinet.

 

John L.

 

[vacerator]

My Samsung

which is new has a slef clean cycle, and tells you when to use it, after about 40 loads. It is a 3 hour cycle. I let it go for a half hour after the door feels hot, about 1.5 to 2 hours. Then I run a rinse cycle. The water draining from the clean cycle is grey. Bleach does not corrode cast aluminum. We'll see about durability. So far I like the machine.

 

[mrboilwash]

I`m with John, there is no way using too much detergent could lead to a build up that harms the washer. Too little detergent on the other hand can lead to a build up of FS, body oils and so on which contributes to a moist environment and thus accelerates spider corrosion.
I think Whirlpool`s advice to use little and only low sudsing detergent to prevent the growth of mold only indicates a poor washer design where dirt laden suds can reach parts of the suds container where rinse water doesn`t get to.
Just think of a poorly designed plastic outer tub which is reinforced with nicks and crannies on the inside.
As long as rinse water can reach all parts there can not be a build up from too much detergent or high sudsing IMO.

 

[DADoES]

 
Water pretty much sprays/spatters all around in the outer tub during spin extraction, yes?

 

[mrboilwash]

I don`t think that much water sprays the back panel of a suds container in a modern FL where the rinse spins either accelerate very slowly or in several little bursts to prevent suds locks.
If it would get sprayed you`d also see water running down the door glass at the start of a spin, but there are very few if any FLs that still do this these days.
Maybe there are still a few commercial ones but that`s not the point.

I could also imagine that some spiders have better scooping and splashing action by design than others to keep themselves clean even in the lowest water levels.
But there is no way to keep a back panel clean if it`s strutted on the inside. At least not if the suds level is higher than the rinse water level which is a common occurrence.

 

[potatochips]

Id be very interested to see how water condition plays in to the corrosion. Jamming untreated or unsoftened water in any metalic environment is a great way to cause corrosion.

 

Dissimilar metals is a great way to cause corrosion. Its happened, and it will happen. Connect carbon steel piping to stainless without a proper anode, grounder, or gasket and see how long the pipe holds up. Perhaps the rate between the tubs and spiders is little due to the compatibility of metals, or maybe they add some sort of non conductive gasket/buffer.

 

What I believe is happening here is either the calcium and magnesium from the supply water, or the goo from the dirt in the wash water, or fabric softener (which has very similar properties to a biofilm/slime), or all three, can build up on the spider and create the perfect condition for corrosion. A deposit of sludge, calcium, or magnesium will trap a hyperactive layer of water between it and the metal will corrode faster. Even faster when hot water is used. The trapped water between the deposit and spider can start to separate and concentrate, causing an increase in pH, which in turn causes the corrosion. You can speed this corrosion up even faster by using hot water as the heat causes the trapped water to evaporate through the sludge, leaving behind an even more concentrated form. This is called underdeposit corrosion in industrial water treatment. This is what I think the main cause of this issue is. It is also called caustic gouging.

 

[iej]

Why are they aluminium anyway? Doesn’t seem like it would be difficult, especially for companies like a Miele, who are producing almost money no object machines, to just use quality stainless steel spiders instead.

 

[launderess]

Thought Miele washers had cast iron spiders?

Am pretty sure my W1070 has cast iron and not aluminum, but could be wrong.

 

[cfz2882]

I have seen some Miele spiders that were either cast iron or welded steel.I just junked a very grubby Midea GE from 2011 and it's bare cast aluminum spider was in almost perfect shape...(went into spares stash) So many varibles involved in the spider corrosion problem...

 

[combo52]

Spider Corrosion

Hi Brendan, What did the washer look like overall, do you have any idea how it was used and why there was so little spider corrosion?

 

About 10 years ago we sold a FD small door commercial version of the popular FD FL washer that was faros for broken spiders and seal problems.

 

Well they beat the machine to death doing a minimum of ten loads a day 7 days a week [ I could not begin to guess how many gallons of bleach was poured in that machine, I know they buy 20 gallons at a time ]. and the cabinet was failing and coming apart at the punch welds. We retired it when the motor board failed for at least the 2nd time. When we pulled it out I took it apart and the spider was about perfect, it is now in another FD washer somewhere that we rebuilt.

 

John 

 

[chestermikeuk]

Corrosion

John as an engineer repaire can you gauge if the iron content quality of the water (or well water) links into any of this excess corrosion ?? and as well as factoring in cold wash with not enough detergents etc ?

Ive only ever seen one destroyed rotting spider and that was last year, the lads picked up a Hoover Newave washer from the early 90`s, it had been used in an extremely hard water area, the lady used Persil non bio powder lots of hot washes, the heater had hardly any scale but the spider had just crumbled after drying out from months of no use...this was the result !!

 

[cfz2882]

reply to combo52...

Do not know the usage of the junked GE-when I got it smelled bad!,front scuffed,back of drum badly scratched.Was going to fix it(broken door latch)but better cosmetic condition machines were obtained and fixed..Looked like "medium hours"run time judging by belt condition and dust buildup and not real scuzzy inside despite the odor...

 

[toddcurtis]

My LG FL spider experience

I just finished replacing the spider on my LG FL washer. It's 12ish years old and in a traffic area so that as much as I remind the family - the door is often closed between cycles. The spider was fractured on 2 arms - corroded horribly. We love this washer btw, the bearings were fine but since I had new I replaced them along with the seal. I wanted to share my observations so that anyone troubleshooting would have the benefit of my experience. The washer was smoking upon completion of the spin but did not ever make a grinding noise. The smoke was from the metal wash basket rubbing against the plastic drum when the broken arms were at 12 o'clock.

Lastly, while the corrosion of the spider is likely due to the door being often closed between cycles, the factory spider replacement arm that I just installed has wrinkled paint on it - likely with voids that will also hold moisture. Not sure if this is a Q/C issue, but considering the amount of work required to replace this part, an epoxy enameled or powder coat would seem more appropriate.

11 years between repairs is still a plus for me. I would recommend this appliance with ease. Cheers all.

 

[combo52]

Corroded aluminum parts in washing machines

The main reason spiders etc. corrode is they get a gunky buildup on them that keeps them wet even if you leave the door open they still corrode.

Of the several front loaders that I have used in the hundreds that I have worked on it’s easy to see which ones are going to corrode.

In my 17-year-old Speed Queen front loader I have always washed in hot water used bleach and at least one and five loads and use lots of detergent don’t skimp on detergent.

I use fabric softener at least half of the loads.

I took the machine apart the other year just to see what it look like the spider it looks like new zero corrosion I should’ve taken pictures.

I’m curious on your LG washer was the tub the boot etc. completely clean or was there some buildup when you put the spider and bearings in it.

I have never even so much is wiped off the door boot in my 17-year-old washer.

John. L

 

[DADoES]

John, you should get pics of your machine and post them with stated detergent measurements (not vaguely as “plenty”) to a servicer discussion board that I occasionally peruse where some techs warn to use no more than 1 teaspoon to 1 tablespoon as maximum detergent dosage for avoiding “soap scum” and save the drum spider from corrosion.