Spider Corrosion, And Foul Odors, In Front Load Washers

[sudsman]

We may well have unintentionally ‘misused ‘ our machine

And NOW the REAL truth is KNOWN to ALL ! And you are the one that strated the rant and that is just and all it so plainly is.
And as far as the thread I created about the use of bleach, the truth of bleach use has been colored so greatly on this thread it is time it is bleached pure white again.. Pass the Clorox please! Put that on your spider and give it a spin! [this post was last edited: 7/24/2010-10:23]

 

[surgilator_68]

And if you were to actually ask the people who had suffered the spider failure how the machine was used I can almost 100% guarantee you that it was with cold water, not enough detergent and/or the wrong detergent and little to no bleach. But I highly doubt you would get an honest answer.

As I said earlier there are machine protectants in the detergent. If you don't use the proper detergent in the proper amount for soil level and water hardness then the machine will not be protected. This IS a fact, IS documented and has been the RULE for decades. It really is not difficult to understand. People are just too stubborn and too cheap to follow directions. The manufacturer is not going to tell you to do something that is going to cause damage to their product.

I really don't think drying out has anything to do with the situation. If there is mineral build up around any part of the machine that touches the seal it will abrade the seal. Mineral build up also acts as a wick.

 

[mark_wpduet]

I have always used LCB in my Duet. The dispenser holds a very small amount, once diluted in the 1st rinse it's not very strong. Then adding two more rinses it's almost all/if not all gone. I think it's too little concentration to do any type of damage. If you were to put a cup of bleach in each time, the yeah.

 

[limey]

To Jetcone, surgilator and mark_wpduet
First Jetcone
Since my response to you on 6 July, post number 447448, I have found, and read, a paper by one Gaute Svenningsen on the corrosion of aluminium. I found it very interesting in that it is the first time I have found any reference to the ‘mechanics’ of what is commonly called ‘pitting corrosion’ in aluminium. Whilst the author calls it ‘micro galvanic corrosion’ and, having read his paper I have to agree with him; it should not be confused with the more normally accepted ‘galvanic corrosion’ where two dissimilar materials, such as steel and aluminium are immersed in an electrolyte, such as seawater and one, in this case the aluminium, corrodes. Therefore Jetcone it would appear that you are correct in calling it galvanic corrosion, but I would not call it ‘like a capacitor’. It is however the major contributor in the item we have under discussion and therefore I was incorrect in my assessment. My apologies. Should you, or anyone else for that matter, be interested in reading the paper, I downloaded it from the internet, just ‘Google’ “Gaute Svenningsen Corrosion in Aluminium”, I will forward you a copy, if so requested.

Next surgilator
Thank you for your input. I agree with you, you are unlikely to receive a fully truthful answer should the owner/operator suspect that they perhaps have done ‘something’ ‘wrong’. That is just human nature. I can only say I know how ours was used and I now realise, since after I performed the bearing renewal and started investigating, that we had likely been misusing it although we had followed the instructions in the owners manual. I understand that there is a court case was brought against Sears in Madison County, Illinois, earlier this year because of much the same thing, but in this case TL machines. Owners were not happy with failures, Sears say you did not maintain machines correctly, owner says, where were those instructions? I do not know if the case is still ongoing or has been settled.
Just for the record so that no one can claim I am holding back information our oldest machine was purchased in May 2001 in California and used there for eight months. At that time we live in an apartment and had no control over the ‘hot’ water temperature. The machine was regularly used with a ‘hot’ wash; using powdered detergent (not HE it was not readily available), bleach, (which in our machines is dispensed at the same time as the detergent). I was often called upon to wear white boilersuits (coveralls) as part of my employment. Hence the frequent use. Sometimes we also used the ‘powdered ‘Oxi’ products but not at the same time as the bleach. In February of 2002 we moved to the greater Montreal area where the water heater was oil fired and we regularly ‘turned up’ the thermostat when we wanted a ‘very hot’ wash, other wise the usage pattern was much the same. It was during this time that my wife first noticed ‘the smell’ only ‘very slight’ we did nothing about it at that time. In May 2005 we sold the house in ‘Montreal’ and the washer was placed in storage, with our other household goods, until we moved into our retirement home in rural Newfoundland, October 2005. Here the water heaters are electric and are not set very high (about 130F). I can see I am going to have to make access to the thermostats easier and ‘turn them up’ when a ‘hot wash’ is required. The rest is recorded elsewhere on this thread.
I do not know of any protectants in the detergents, I cannot recollect seeing anything mentioned in any of the MSDS’s that I have perused. Perhaps they do not have to be listed I do not know, do you?
I agree that the correct dosage of all laundry aids is important, to little and the job won’t get done, to much and you are wasting the ‘aid’, polluting the environment and quite literally throwing money down the drain. With respect to the hardness of the water I grew up in an area with very hard water, was good to drink and made a lovely cup of tea, but played the proverbial merry hell with water heaters, kettles, water central heating systems etc. I remember my parents always added a handful of ‘washing soda’ to the washing machine or the ‘copper’ (clothes boiler), in our case coal gas heated but for many a small coal fire underneath the tub. Enough of the memories back to reality. I believe you will however agree that it is extremely difficult to judge exactly how much detergent is required to ‘just get the clothes clean’. Any excess is not only wasteful but in the case of FL machines with aluminium spiders potentially hazardous to the spiders.
I agree that people can be infuriatingly stubborn an even when presented with irrefutable evidence, still refuse to believe it or check it, and here I am not talking about an opinion, view, understanding or the like, which is largely what we are dealing with here. As an example the EPA stating, on their web page, that they do not approve ozone generators as air cleaners, they only register the design so that in the event of the need for a recall or similar they know which models to call in, but you then get some peddlers of these machines insisting that they are EPA approved, but said peddlers will not check the EPA’s home page.
As for a manufacturer not telling you what can/will damage their product in my case why 6 years after we purchased our first machine and then purchased another was there no appreciable difference in the use and care instructions/information. As I said in an earlier post I spent a fair amount of time investigating machinery failures, not in the laundry industry, I hasten to add, and my experience is that manufacturers are extremely reluctant to admit any sort of oversight, lack of forethought, incomplete design review or whatever appears to be causing the problem. In some, isolated instances, I have known manufacturers be extremely casual with the truth. In view of this I admit I am extremely cynical when someone tells me a manufacturer would not do such and such. Again it is just human nature and, in some cases, an attempt to protect the bottom line.

Should drying out not have anything to do with the situation I do not have a case, unless I am misunderstanding you. To save me repeating it all again please just refer to the penultimate paragraph in my first post in this thread. I am referring to the corrosion of the spider, not the failure of the bearings.

I agree that anything rubbing on the seal, particularly without lubrication, will abrade the seal. I also agree that the build-ups we see on the spiders, be they mineral or something else, do have the potential to act as wicks, and therefore the ability to absorb water contaminated with laundry aids, soil, and impurities from the original tap water and, as such, also have the potential, as they ‘dry out’ to reach a pH value where corrosion could occur.

In the case we have under consideration. i.e. the central area of the spider between the inner and outer drums. This area will receive little of the ‘water’ from the washing and rinsing processes. What it does receive will not be ‘spun out’ even during the fastest spin cycle and therefore will remain after the cycle has finished. I ask you does this seem possible? The closest I can come up with is a cars wheel. Even after a relatively fast run some water remains towards the centre and when the vehicle stops some of this water drains down, but some remains. Does this make any sort of sense to you?

To mark
Thank you for your input.
Unless we are able to guarantee that all the water, except what is actually retained in the laundry, is capable of being removed we have the possibility that that the remaining water will have the potential to cause corrosion.
I fully agree that anything left after 3 rinses is not going to be very concentrated but please see my last paragraph to surgilator above which I believe explains how I think it may occur.

Thank you all once again and I look forward to your comments.
Regards

 

[mrb627]

Metal Fatigue?

Perhaps metal fatigue plays a bigger part in this what with heating water to 160 then dropping to tap cold in the winter time. That is quite a swing!

Malcolm

 

[limey]

Metal Fatigue & Low Temperature Performance Of Aluminium

To Malcolm – mrb627
Thank you for your input.
I believe what is commonly called ‘metal fatigue’ is very likely the ultimate cause of the vast majority of catastrophic spider failures. I believe it is generally described as the failure of a metal due to cyclic stresses. Which would cover the situation just prior to a spider ‘breaking’ whilst the machine was actually running. I do not believe very many spiders actually drop apart with the machine stationary.

With regard to the low temperature performance, and thermal shock.
As I do not know what the actual composition(s) of the aluminium alloy(s) of the spiders are; it is, I feel, rather pointless, to try and determine what the charpy results for the spiders would be. I do not believe that it is not a possibility and should be taken into account for the failure of spiders where no corrosion is evident. I do know that, as a generalization, the charpy results for steel tend to start to drop quite dramatically at about 0C and our water up here in Canada, in winter, is not much above that. However, even as a generalization, I do not know, how aluminium behaves under similar circumstances. Has anyone out there any knowledge of this? As a very generalization ‘metals’ do tend to become more brittle with falling temperatures.

Charpy tests are ‘notch tests’ carried out on an ‘Izod’ tester to determine the ‘notch resistance’ of the material under consideration and are carried out at specified ‘lower’ temperatures.

I can only recollect one post, on another site, where the poster, a washer repairman, stated that he had seen several fractured spiders with no evidence of corrosion. He did state that all the fractures were where the arm joined the hub of the spider. So far he has not responded to my query regarding the manufacturer(s) of these spiders.

Once again thank you for your input and I look forward any further comments you may have.

 

[limey]

Whirlpool's Response-Or Lack Thereof

At my second attempt I have received a response from Whirlpool reproduced below, together with a copy of my communication to them

Dear Mr. XXXXX,

Thank you for visiting the Whirlpool web site. We appreciate hearing from you.

Please accept our apologies for the difficulties and inconvenience you have experienced with your washer. We are in correspondence and are not licensed technicians or engineers. Any technical aspect of an appliance we are not trained in beyond the basic troubleshooting.

A response pertaining to how the Affresh product restricts mold growth and foul odor while at the same time combating corroding we are not able to supply. You may be certain that a copy of your comments has been forwarded to the appropriate department for review and investigation though. One of our engineers will not contact you to discuss this matter but you may be certain that such aspects are thoroughly examined and will be implemented if so needed.

Thank you for contact Whirlpool.

Sincerely,

Dianna D.
e-Solutions Specialist
Whirlpool Customer eXperience Center
http://www.whirlpoolappliances.ca

*If replying, please use Forward verses Reply or New as that will leave this message intact and will help us to respond faster.
THREAD ID:1-DUZTPU]



-----Original Message-----

From: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: 7/29/2010 05:39:55 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Questions and Comments

Your Details are.

The following information has been received

Regarding : Other
Subject : Spider Corrosion And Foul Odours In Front Loading Washers
Comments : The spiders in your front-loading washing machines are manufactured from aluminium alloys, as is the norm for the industry. It is a well known, and well documented fact that aluminium is corroded when immersed in an aqueous solution with a pH value below about 4.0 (nitric acid is a well documented exception) and above about 8.0. A very informative one page paper on this subject is available 'on the web', just "Google" 'Gaute Svenningsen Aluminium Corrosion' and read the result.
Are you aware that a great many laundry aids, including HE detergents have a pH above 8.0. Your own Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) for your 'Affresh' gives its pH as 10.5-10.7 with a 1% solution meaning, that should the required concentration be reached, it could corrode the spiders in front loading washing machines.
A great many front-loading washing machines have suffered failed spiders due to corrosion. For examples, including one of yours, just visit 'fixitnow.com/wp/2009/10/28'
I believe that at the end of the last spin of a washing cycle, no matter what the spin speed, a very small quantity of water will remain on the spider near the shaft, this situation I further believe will be aggravated by recesses in the spider in this area, as in your spider on the above website. This 'water' will contain very small quantities of the laundry aids used, soil, products of the reactions between the laundry aids and soil from the laundry, and chemicals from the 'tap water'. As the water evaporates from this mixture the concentration of the impurities will increase until such time as the pH level reaches a value at which corrosion will commence. Should the pH level not rise sufficiently to cause corrosion the 'impurities' in the 'water' will leave a deposit, which will cause mould and foul odours which is also a common complaint with this type of washer.I would appreciate your comments on the above.Thank you and regards
Product : Washers
Modelno : Front Loaders
Serialno :

Future emails from Whirlpool : No

 

[limey]

Apology

It has come to, my attention that there is an error in the final line of my post on 23 July 2010. The last line should read: -

Anyone know where there is more information on the decomposition of sodium hypochlorite at temperatures above 104F?

My apologies for any inconveniences or misunderstandings this may have caused. Please be assured it was unintentional.
Once again my apologies.

 

[limey]

Bosch's Replies - Well Sort Of

After two e-mail attempts elicited no response from Bosch, I tried the telephone and reached a lady in the greater Montreal area. The exchange of e-mails that resulted is copied below.

As I consider these unsatisfactory answers I tried ¡®snail mail¡¯, again copied below. So far I have not received a response. Should a response be received I will post it.

XXXXXXXXXXX
Bosch Home Appliances XXXXXXXXXX
5551 McFadden Avenue XXXXXXXXXXX
Huntingdon Beach XXXXXXXXXXX CA 92649 Canada
USA 24th July 2010

Dear Sir,

Front Load Washers and Bleach (Sodium Hypochlorite)

I have been trying to obtain answers to three questions: -

1. In the Instruction manuals for models WFL 2060 and WFL 2090 one is instructed not to use chlorine bleach on three occasions, not including the mention of voiding the warranty in the warranty section. In one of these sections it is stated that ¡®hazardous fumes¡¯ could be given off.
In the section under decolorizing one is instructed not to decolorize items in the machine as decolorants may contain sulphur or chlorine that may cause corrosion of some washer components. A similar instruction is carried in the manual for the Vision 800 series. My question is what components may be damaged?
2. I note that in the manual for the Vision 800 series that the use of bleach is permitted and that its use is recommended in a cleaning cycle once every three months. My question is what has changed from the WFL 2060 and WFL 2050 that enables the use of bleach to now take place?
3. What is the material of the spider?

I have tried sending an e-mail on this subject but have received no response. I have tried calling the 1-800 number. I enclose a copy of the subsequent exchange of e-mails. I consider these hardly completely satisfactory answers. The model WFL 2090 is still shown as available on your web home site. I now try this.

My mailing address is as shown above, my email address is XXXXXXXX, my telephone number is XXX XXX XXXX.

I hope to hear from you.

Yours sincerely

XXXXXXX
From: Lavoie, Andre (FS)
Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2010 6:43 PM
To: Pepin, Isabelle (CS)
Subject: RE: Vision washer

The WFL European machine cannot be compare with the Vision machine design for North America,The amount of water in both unit are not the same,Consumer still need to be careful with the usage of chlorine in the vision unit.If too much chlorine is use in the unit,it can damage the seal of the bearing in a long terms.It's only a question of dilution.


From: Pepin, Isabelle (CS)
Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2010 5:54 PM
To: Lavoie, Andre (FS)
Subject: FW: Vision washer

Hello Andr¨¦,i made a mistake in my question,can you read the customer question please?


22/07/2010
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XXXXXXXXX
Hi Thank you for the response unfortunately it does not answer my question:- What is the difference between the Vision 800 series that allows the use of bleach whereas in earlier models it was not per
To [email protected]
From: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Sent: July 22, 2010 7:01:50 PM
To: [email protected]
Hi
Thank you for the response unfortunately it does not answer my question:-
What is the difference between the Vision 800 series that allows the use of bleach whereas in earlier models it was not permitted. The manuals for the WFL 2050 and the WFL 2090 instruct not to use chlorine bleach in three separate statements, one of these also states that 'Hazardous Fumes' could be given off. In both of the above mentioned manuals and the manual for the Vision 800 is the statement under 'Decolorizing' that dyes could contain sulphur or chlorine and that these could cause corrosion of some of the washing machine components. These seems odd as chlorine bleach contains chlorine and is corrosive to many materials, including aluminium. So what components are there that could still be damaged by chlorine in the Vision that are safe for bleach but not chlorine?
Thank you for your time.
XXXXXXXXXXX
22/07/2010
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Pepin, Isabelle (CS) Add to contacts
Hello,i forward you the response of our technician. Thank you and have a nice day Isabelle P¨¦pin ______________________________________________ From: Lavoie, Andre (FS) Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2010 1
To XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
From: Pepin, Isabelle (CS) ([email protected])
Sent: July 22, 2010 3:19:43 PM
To: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Hello,i forward you the response of our technician.
Thank you and have a nice day
Isabelle P¨¦pin
______________________________________________
From: Lavoie, Andre (FS)
Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2010 1:21 PM
To: Pepin, Isabelle (CS)
Subject: RE: Vision washer
You could also put some bleach in the Nexxt series but a really small quantity .this is the same with the vision. And the spider is cast aluminum with S/S insert.
_____________________________________________
From: Pepin, Isabelle (CS)
Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2010 1:11 PM
To: Lavoie, Andre (FS)
Subject: Vision washer

Hi Andr¨¦,
A customer is asking me what have been changed on the new Vision washer,that now he can put some bleach in and with the Nexxt model he could not,and he also whant to know of what material the spider ismade.
Thanks
Isabelle
Isabelle P¨¦pin
BSH Home Appliances-Canada
Repr¨¦sentante au Service ¨¤ la Client¨¨le
Customer Service Representative
9220 Boulevard du Golf
Anjou, Qu¨¦bec
H1J 3A1
Bosch; 1 (800) 944-2904
Thermador; 1 (800) 735-4328
Gaggenau; 1 (877) 442-4436
Fax: 1 (714) 845-2676
Couriel [email protected]
E-mail [email protected]

 

[limey]

Bosch's Answer

I have now received a letter response from Bosch.
I will précis the main points of the letter. Should anyone want a copy drop me an email and I will scan it and forward a copy.
The letter makes no reference to the emails from the technician so we must assume that they are accurate.

The AXXIS units WFL2060 and 2090 are small European units that do not have a bleach cycle and chlorine bleach will damage the hoses. It is in order to use non-chlorine bleach in these washers.

The VISION series are full size washers; they and the NEXXT series, will accept chlorine bleach. They both have bleach cycles and the hoses are made of chlorine resistant material.

Decolorizing is a term for dyeing. Dyes contain substances that can cause damageto the washers.

 

[favorit]

Hi David/Limey,

I actually can't get one thing ..... rinses dilute the chemicals, don' t they ?? So the concentration of the chemicals in the last rinse is trascurable

You say more or less "when water evaporates chemical concentration increases, so PH fastly increases over 8 ..."

If this statement were so true ... everytime we use a fork, a knife, a spoon, a glass in whatever restaurant our mouth would get burned by caustic soda residues

Dishwashing detergent in commercial dishwashers is plain caustic soda.

According to your theory, when the racks/belts exit the dishwashers and loads suddenly flashdry because of the hi temp rinse the surface of the clean items would be covered with those particles of caustic soda that weren't neutralized by the rinse aid.
But as we know, millions of people all over the world eat and drink with utensiles washed with caustic soda, yet they survive .........

Maybe is that theory "of the dried spider" a bit weak ??

No offence, but you have to be aware that here you are also dealing with some posters who have to do with washers because of their jobs, so they have a 360° point of view/experience with washers. This is totally different and more complete of the point of view we, simple collectors or "washoolics", have.

 

[limey]

Spider Corrosion

To favorit.

Thank you for your thoughts and comments.

Let us take this one step at a time.

Yes rinses do dilute chemicals the more times you ‘rinse’ the weaker the concentration of remaining chemicals become: except of course for the chemicals and suspended solids in the ‘tap’ water used for ‘rinsing’, until it approaches that of the ‘tap’ water itself, should sufficient ‘rinses’ take place.

What do you understand ‘trascurable’ to mean? Should it be ‘very small’ or ‘minor’ I would agree. Should it be ‘negligible’ or ‘unimportant’ I would not agree.

One very significant difference between a dishwasher and a laundry washer is the quantity of ‘water’ left in the machine at the end of each phase of the cycle. Unless only a very small load of laundry is dealt with, the laundry washer will have considerably more water owing to the quantity absorbed by the clothes, hence more contaminants.

So far I have been unable to verify your statement that commercial dishwashing detergent is plain caustic soda. In fact, so far, I have not found it listed as an ingredient in any of those I have checked. Just so that we fully understand each other, to me caustic soda is sodium hydroxide (NaOH). Sodium hydroxide, is extremely corrosive to, inter alia, aluminium and, as you observe, human flesh.

The above not withstanding, let us continue.
The main purpose, as far as I am aware, of the rinse agent, is to reduce/eliminate the ‘spotting’, ‘water marks’ on items from a dishwasher and to do this it alters the surface tension of the ‘water’ so that it ‘slides’ off the dishes/cutlery and does not form drops. This means that very small amounts of the contaminants remain on the dishes/cutlery; will some of these be ingested? I believe so, and so do some ‘green’ sites. The quantities will be that small that damage will not be immediate but cumulative, in other words we are poisoning ourselves!

Having said the above almost any commercial ‘eatery’ would examine eating equipment prior to ‘putting it out’ as would any ‘host/hostess’ or ‘househusband/housewife’, and any with ‘spots’ or ‘watermarks’ would be wiped ‘clean’ but would still have very, very, small quantities of chemicals and soil left on them.

As far as I am concerned none of the above alters my view, in any way, regarding possible causes of front loader spider corrosion.

One point that does need to be remembered is that these spiders are continuing to fail catastrophically and something is causing that corrosion and hence failure. Nothing appears to have been done to stop these failures.

 

[sudsman]

I am concerned none of the above alters my view

And that is ALL it is your view!

 

[bobofhollywood]

not all washers die

I currently have 5 front loading washers installed in my laundry studio. Not one has an odor issue and I use bleach in them all on occasion. I have been using front loaders now for over 20 years and never once had a bearing go bad. Here is what I do - never close the door unless the washer is being used. As a collector restorer I have seen machines that have run many decades and never failed. Here's a bigger problem. No matter what you do nobody lives forever. Everybody eventually dies. .guaranteed. I have been asking the manufacturer about it for years and nothing is being done. Still the fact remains - nobody lives forever. I THINK this thread has really out lived its usefulness. Some washers may have failed in the time it took for this thread to develop but the vast majority of them did not. For me this is a complete non issue. Just leave your door open limey. Your issue is not as important as you think.

 

[MrX]

I've never had a bad smell problem with any of my machines over the years. However, my grandmother's machines have always had odour issues and mildew.

It comes down to one simple difference : temperature!

We always was at 40C or 60C for towels/sheets etc.

My grandmother *always* washes on Cold (or as close to cold as the machine will allow).

The end result is that her machine's invariably a mess, and ours is perfect.

She saves on energy but goes through about twice as many washing machines as we do in the same number of years!

I have also found that use of non-enzyme detergents will cause similar problems. Good biological (enzyme-rich) detergents will dissolve fungus, mould etc during the wash. I'm not sure that non-bio (no enzyme) detergents will be as effective as they are not set up to breakdown proteins etc.

Using very short washes doesn't help either!

 

[MrX]

One more tip!

If you really do want to get rid of the smell out of a gunked-up front loader (this may also work for gunked up top loaders) do the following:

1) Descale the machine using a commercial washing machine descaler. These are available from supermarkets or appliance specialists (and online).

2) Using raw disinfectant liquid (as described below) and wearing rubber gloves - wipe down the door seal and and fully clean out the dispensor drawer. You might consider spraying the inside of the dispenser drawer with a solution of disinfectant.

3) Run a deep wash at at least 60C, but preferably 90C using a large dose of liquid disinfect that is suitable for use on laundry. E.g. in the UK and Ireland - Dettol Liquid disinfectant (not the old-fashoned version, but the clear / scented versions). Typically, you will need a really large dose e.g. half a bottle of the stuff to have any impact.

4) Before the wash part of the cycle completes, stop/pause the machine and allow the disinfectant to work for a while.

Switch machine back on and allow cycle to complete as normal.

6) Once this is finished, run a hot wash with a large dose of a good quality powder laundry detergent (not the colour-kind variety) i.e. Persil Bio, Ariel Bio, Tide with Bleach etc.

When done, your machine should no longer smell and the mildew problem should be resolved.

In future, ensure that you do a hot 60C cycle about once a week or at least every two weeks. Its a good way of maintaining your machine and it's also an excellent way of keeping your towels clean

 

[bobofhollywood]

leave the door open

It comes down to leave the door open. Either you will or you won't.

 

[alr2903]

Bobofhollywood, nice to see you posting. I was a brand new member and you posted the multi color speed queen coin ops for me. I never forget a kindness. Good to see ya mister. arthur

 

[sudsman]

This thread has outlived its usefulness

THATS FOR SURE!!!

 

[iheartmaytag]

One last observation

I wonder if it's all about moderation? Bleach in itself is not bad, just don't pour too much of a good thing in at a time. Same with detergents.

What was suggested to me by a very knowledgeable woman at LOWE'S. Alternate your cleaning aids. Each can cause a slight build up on their own that is counteracted by another. Too much powder detergent in cooler water can cause a cement like build in the outer tub. Too much liquid detergent can cause a build up of greasy film. Too much softner can cause Gunk.

If you alternate they counteract and complement each other's traits. I usually wash bedding, towels, jeans with Powder Tide HE and a Hot wash. Perm Press is usually Tide Total Care (Liquid) in Warm or cold. Delicates are done with Woolite HE (Liquid) cold water. I rarely, but do use softner. Most of my bleaching is with Oxi-clean now, but I do have a bleach dispenser in my machine and have usd LCB. It holds about 1/4 cup of bleach, my main complaint and the reason I avoid bleach in my FL machine is I don't like the way it dumps the bleach in a plume right in the middle of the clothes.

[this post was last edited: 8/20/2010-14:51]