HE Detergent, Is it really necessary?

[sudsdudeshane]

I am buying a new front loader washer..Its either going to be the Kitchen Aid Ensemble or the Maytag Epic. I have a huge box of Tide with Bleach powder I bought at Costco. Can I still use it in my new front loader?..I like a little suds in my wash..Thanks Boyz!

 

[irishwashguy]

I would exparament with what you have

I use HE Persil and Sa-8 in my Miele( 1 tablespoon) and like my results,Cathy has an LG Steam washer, she uses the little bottles of the ALL HE, although I have friends that do either or. My friend Verla is a faithful Surf user and will not change, they just use less of it.in Their Frigidaire FL, My friends Renata and Dawn use Bio Kleen in their Bosch and do fabulous!!, I have my friend Jody that uses liquid All from Cosco and has a Whirlpool Duet and does Great.Cut it in half and ajust it acordingly to how you like it. Check Rober's thread where he is using Tide W/bleach and you will see the modern soaps do not suds up like the retro products do. I was quite suprised myself. Cheers, Ritchie

 

[appnut]

Shane, one has to be very careful about suds level in a front loader. Why? (1) It impedes and creates a "cushion" such that cleaning action as it should be as the machine wass designed to do; (2) it puts a strain on the motor; it appears there seems to be a correlation between too much suds eventually getting at the bearings and causing premature failure; (3) HE detergents are designed to suspent soil in the limited amount of water as well as almost eliminate dye transferr within said small amount of water; (4) said to ahve agents in the compound which reduces the mold factor people are said to have problems with. I am discovering I'm getting better cleaning resuls with my Sears HE Stain Fighter forumla detergent than I had hoped and am using Biz much less (which isn't HE-compatible and I waatch the dosage extremely carefully so as to not create too much extra sufds).

 

[partscounterman]

It didn't take long to realize that some of those HE detergents make darn near as many suds as regular. I now have gone to using just a tablespoon or two of regular liquid Tide w/bleach alternative. My white actually got whiter as I started using less detergent. However, Leon, another member here on Maui, just had a huge repair on his Duet and the repairman told him that it was because he didn't use HE detergents. I think the repairman is full of "tar" but I tell you this so you can draw your own conclusions.

 

[DADoES]

When using Tide HE in my Calypso, there sometimes is some sudsing at first, but it typically thins-out toward end of the wash phase, and if not, dissipates quicker than non-HE suds.

I found in my F&P toploader, which starts a typical wash with a concentrated recirculation spray, that dosage requirements of standard detergent can vary considerably depending on soil level. A "light" load such as a set of sheets can generate a huge suds cake with just 2 oz. of Ariel powder. A larger load of jeans including a pair or two with muddy knees or a BobLoad® of towels may have just a thin layer of suds with 4 oz. Now, 1/4 or 1/2 cup of Ariel is not enough for the full-fill deep wash phase with my fairly hard water, so I always add more later. I've used Tide HE on the last several loads. A set of sheets with 1/2 cup (4 oz.) and a BobLoad® of jeans with 7/8 cup (7 oz.) both did great.

 

[launderess]

All one needs for "HE" detergent is for it to be low foaming, and rinse cleanly. Front loading washing machines basically are like beating laundry against a rock, though in this case subsitute the sides of the washer's drum for the rock. Too many suds will cushion this action and lead to poor results.

Excess foam too often can also cause damage to the washer's pump by causing it to over heat. Pumps are designed to pump water, not froth, and can over work themselves trying to get what is basically air, out of the washer. As for suds causing bearing failures, well commercial, especially laundromat machines are subjected to oversudsing on what probably is a regular basis (when was the last time you ever saw anyone use "HE" detergent at a coin laundry?); but cope well. The difference is commercial/coin washers are constructed with top grade sealed bearings, which by the way can be replaced as needed. Many front loaders today have poor cheap bearings, and even worse the bearings are part of the two tub system. This makes it very easy for suds to filter into the bearing.

So, leaving aside high sudsing detergents, you can use any detergent, HE labeled or not, long as it meets the above critera. Liquids in general tend to cause more sudsing, HE labeled or not, especially at high water temps.

You can experiment with using non-HE detergents, but the trick is to be able to use the dose required for good soil/stain removal, and keep said soils suspended, without triggering over sudsing. Am doing a very full load of mixed whites (towels, undergarments, washcloths) in my Miele with a little overy 1/2 cup of Tide with Bleach, at 140F, with NO sudsing. Then again we use soap for bathing and all the soap residue in the wash cloths keeps the foaming down. With other loads as little as 1 tablespoon of TWB can cause lots of froth.

YMMV

L.

 

[bobbyd32l]

I conducted an experiment using the Cabrio and HLP21E. I used Tide HE, and Original tide liquid in the Cabrio first and noticed these results:

HE Liquid, very little suds, and when the wash plate stopped, suds went away very quickly.

Original tide liquid, when the machine would spin for water level sensing, suds would start to come out of the water spout more and more each time. As the machine would wash suds got worse and worse especially when the machine would recirculate the water to clean out the lint trap. When the machine went into spin, it would spin up quickly and slow down and then suds would come up through the detergent/bleach/fabric softener dispensor, then the machine would stop and flash, "SD", purge tge drain pump and perform the suds removal routine (slow speed spinning sprays of warm water)

For the HLP21E on a medium level with HE same results, very minimal suds, and they would diminish quickly when the machine would stop.

Original Tide, there wouldn't be very many suds during washing, but when the tub would spin, it would be at a full speed spin, slow down and suds would come out of the upper portion of the tub and lock up the machine.

I also tried with All HE and had similar results to Tide, with a little more sudsing. So I would say that in machines that use less water like HE machines, HE detergent is probably best.

 

[appnut]

Nmaineman36's Frigidaire prematurely failed due to bearings going bad and was told because he dind't use HE detergents.

 

[oxydolfan1]

Bobbyd, do you believe this is because the Haier machine utilizes more water than the Cabrio?

I ask, because I'm considering a Haier machine because of its relatively low price, and want a higher water level, if possible.

 

[oxydolfan1]

Cancel the above! I just realized you were referring to the Haier toploader...

 

[tomturbomatic]

Using HE detergents need not cost more than using regular detergents if you are willing to watch for Tide coupons, watch the TARGET ad in Sunday's ad section and shop when the Tide detergent is on sale (all varieties). You can mix powder Tide HE one to one with regular powder Tide and still have suds control unless you try to heat the water to very hot temperatures. The Cabrios state that you must use HE detergents and if there is evidence that it has not been used, warranties might not cover damage the user has inflicted on the washer.

By the way, don't think that you are breaking new ground by trying to get around the use a controlled suds detergent. The 1950s featured many ads with machines sudsed all to hell and back because people did not use a low sudsing detergent. It's your service call expense, possible damage to the machine and water damage to the house, lost time as the washer goes through the de-suds cycle, reduced cleaning due to suds preventing clothing from benefitting from the fall and impact method tumbler washers use. Rinsing will be less effective, so detergent will be left in the laundry to either cause discoloration if ironed or rashes to those with sensitive skin. Finally, if you fill the drum with suds, there will not be anything to watch through the window, except for the blizzard/whiteout scene like on the Weather Channel.

 

[jonv112]

I have a huge box of Tide with Bleach powder I bought at Cos

If you didn't open it or used very little of it, RETURN IT! Costco has a very easy-going return policy. Just tell them that you got a new washing machine that can't use this kind of detergent because of the "HE" requirement. I did this when I got my Oasis set a couple months back.

HTH

 

[nmaineman36]

What I do is with whites I use Tide w/Bleach and add a small scoop of Tide HE up to the first line on the scoop. Kills the suds and I can extend the box uses...actually I think I use less than that...I would say half under the first line. I can extend a box that says 31 uses to 62 uses and it works every time. I am able to use regular detergent and get great performance. You will be surprised at how well Tide w/Bleach cleans in the frontloader using this formula.

 

[sudsmaster]

OK, a couple of things could use some additional input:

Some detergents that are labeled "HE Compatible" do suds almost as much as regular detergents. Suds level is somewhat dependent upon the type of fabric being laundered. I have some bathmat type throw rugs that caused a lot of sudsing with minimal HE detergent, but as time has gone on, their sudsing level has gone down - even with same amount of same HE detergent. I think the latex backing may have been contributing to sudsing. I think powdered detergent is hard on latex backing; I've since switched to liquid for such rugs and this seems gentler. I ruined a set of foam-backed drapes by washing in powder; it softened the backing and made the fabric stick to itself, ripping the backing off in places. I laundered the rest of the drapes in liquid HE detergent (Sears HE liquid) and there was no softening or problems.

A good way to gauge HE detergent suds level is to add a standard amount to warm water in a lidded jar (a pickle jar works well). Shake well, and then measure the amount of suds. Most HE detergents give an inch or less of suds. Most regular detergents give more than an inch - sometimes a lot more.

Sudsing also is very dependent upon the type of soiling, and the soiling level. Very dirty laundry will suds less; and if the type of soiling contains a lot of oil/grease/antifoam inhibitors, then of course sudsing level will be lower.

Modern front loaders have sealed drum bearings. I know this from observing first hand the bearings in my Neptune 7500 (to replace the drum support "spider"). The bearings are sealed, and also have extra seals fore and aft.

Commercial front loaders may have water run-off channels in the bearing cavity. This is possible in a laundromat type of installation, where floor drains/troughs are common and a little water flowing from the bearing to the drain is no biggie. But it would be a no-no in a residential machine. Additionally, as noted, commercial machines may have more easily replaced bearings. On most residential machines these days, the outer tub is plastic and the bearings are molded into the plastic, and are not supposed to be separately replaceable (you replace the whole tub to replace the bearing). The Miele with its stainless steel outer tub is an exception; perhaps also the Speed Queen.

Costco "HE Compatible" powder is high sudsing. Also, if you have a reciept, Costco will not quibble even if you bring back an opened container for a refund. After all, if the product does not perform like an HE detergent, it is unacceptable. I've even seen Costco give full refunds for opened CD's or DVD's.

I tend to doubt that oversudsing is hard on FL bearings. I would suspect that liquid chlorine bleach is more abusive, since it can attack the metal shafts that the bearing seals must tightly ride upon. There is enough splashing going on inside the tub/drum that even a low suds level is going to expose the bearings to sudsy water. Of course, oversudsing is undesirable for other reasons, which in addition to those already stated, may include over-cushioning the wash load so that cleaning action is impaired.

 

[launderess]

Think with some of these new "HE" washers, one is probably better off using and HE detergent, as many of these units simply are not built to withstand any sort of regular abuse, and that includes over sudsing.

Front loaders unitl rather recently used a good amount of water for washing, and most did nice "high level" rinsing as well, thus it was a bit easier to dilute/rinse away excess detergent. With today's HE machines using so little water, it can take ages, if ever before excess detergent is removed. Remember when over sudsing happens you not only have excess foam in the machine, but detergent in the laundry as well. Both have to be removed for good results.

Commerical/coin front loaders will use a period of flushing before a certian number of rinses to clear the drain/pump of suds and help remove foam from the machine/wash. If suds are not removed before the final spin, all washers will not spin up to speed to prevent damage to the pump. Depending upon how sensitive the washer is, it may not spin with even a small amount of excess foam. This will lead to all sorts of problems, including having to run the laundry through another rinse or whole cycle to get the detergent residue out.

My vintage Miele has four deep rinses, and by deep I mean water almost half way up the door it seems. That seems to take care of all but the most stubborn excess detergent/foam situations. Then again older front loaders it seems were built to be deathly afraid of suds locking, thus seem to use lots of water to make sure laundry was well rinsed.

L.

 

[nmaineman36]

I can tell you first hand that with my experience with the Frigidaire built front loader I had the bearings failed because of not using an HE detergent. My mom had to do laundry when I was in Massachusetts full time recovering from my heart attack. And it was my fault for keeping regular detergent on hand since I am and I will admit a detergent whore. I have enough detergent to last me a good 2 years. Plus all the softeners you can imagine...My sister in law couldnt decide which one to use. Anyways I dont think my mom knew how much to use detergent wise and with what she did to it in the 4 months I wasnt doing laundry in Maine kinda made me a tad pissed. I came home started the washer and a load and when the washer would go into high spin the howling began. Not the usual jet taking off sound..howling and the drum felt loose to me and I could feel the distinct thud as I rotated the drum.
The repair man told me I needed new bearings and it wouldnt be covered and he wanted 300 bucks. I told him for a bit more I can get a new washer. I went out and bought a Whirlpool that seems to shred shirts and towels. Now I am back to using my trusty Maytag A613 with the long stroke. Live and learn I say
Plus it hasnt been a good year...hopefully next year will be better.

 

[sudsmaster]

The problem with oversudsing and front loaders not getting up to full spin is the same as it is with oversudsing and top loaders not getting up to full spin.

It's called "sudslock": the suds actually cause too much interference between the inner drum and outer tub, and the motor cannot (usually) fight that. On some machines, most notoriously the older Whirlpool belt drive machines, suds lock will prevent the washer from spinning. It will clang and bang and sound like it has failed. But if you set it to rinse repeatedly until the suds are gone, it will go into spin ok.

I suppose it's possible for suds lock to ruin FL bearings, but I'd think the belt and/or motor would fail first. And the pump doesn't care if it's pumping suds or air or water. Look at an old Maytag: the pump is running all the time. It doesn't care! The problem with too much suds is that the pump cannot remove the suds from the machine. It needs some water to pump the stuff out. So the suds stay in the machine and then the fun with sudslock starts.

As for the Frigidaire FL design of the 90's... From what I've heard on this and the THS forum, three years is about the average lifespan for Frigidaire FL bearings. So I suspect the use of regular detergent had nothing to do with the bearing failure - it was just their time. But that's just my conjecture.

 

[lederstiefel1]

HE detergent

Hi all!
We had all that discussion during the early 1960s when the first automatic washer came onto market in Germany (they are FL ever since!) and people needed a different washing powder than with their tub washers (wringer washers, single-tubs and twin-tubs), so these powders with a so called suds-brake were made especially for front-loaders to avoid the common overfoaming and to get better washing results by boosting the tumbling action by avoiding the appearance of the foam-cushion! Some detergents for delicates (Perwoll) still have no suds reducer in it to built up that mentioned suds-cushion, making the washing action more gentle for woollens and silks..
Reducing of the powder to avoid the foaming is a BAD ADVICE!!
It ruins your cloths after a while, will left residues inside the machine as well as on the textiles and doesn't brake down the hardness of the water effectively enough! All that will damage washer and cloths and will appear in dishwasher grey textiles with a dull look and a bad smell, too! General powder is NOT suitable for frontloaders at all! But HE powders can be used in any type of machine!
Ralf

 

[toggleswitch]

I dont't use HE detergent. The regular stuff works for me in my front-loader.