Heat-Pump Woes.

[toggleswitch]

Dan three tons is only 36,000 BTU/h. That is a pretty average capactity/size.
The utility must REALLY like instantaneous electric hot water heaters!

Thanks GadgetBoy. Hard to read though.

 

[gadgetgary]

Wiring Diagram

In B&W

 

[dalangdon]

Whole house electric tankless water heaters are illegal in the City of Seattle, but they can be installed in the other cities in our service district.

Luckily, I only work in the City of Seattle ;-)

 

[toggleswitch]

oh sorry!

~that have an increased pulse just about now.

Just to be clear: That group of sentences reads oddly. I meant excitement over my description of the repairman!

No disresect was intended.

 

[pturo]

It's all ancient Sandscipt to me. I am a plug and play kind of guy when it comes to electicity. Toggles can present and argue electricty cases like a Philadelphia lawyer.

 

[appnut]

no unbathed, unkempt, ungroomed burly bear-like country bump

Well, yeah, I don't like the unbathed. However, unkkempt and ungroomed can indicate they been workin' hard at something. And hey, a burly bear from the country in oveeralls alone can be enough to cause a stroke for me from increased pulse. And who knows the country bumpkin in overalls may actually end up beingt the one who steals my heart--and he's darn smart too!!

 

[tolivac]

WARNING!!!!NEVER press down a relay by hand with a tool or anything else in a defective system-you could get burned or even killed.If you press the relay on a short-it can almost explode from the current and send metal bits and plastic shards out at you.And the flash can blind you.An incident happned like this hgere at work-luckly no one was injured or killed-just very surprized.Best to check with an ohmeter and other tools in the cold circuit.

 

[DADoES]

Yeah, Toggles, we don't want you going down in flames ... or up in flames ... whichever direction.

 

[coldspot]

I do not know anything at all about Heat Pumps. Since no one here has them. But I do have electric forced air heat.

On my unit the blower fan will not come on for about 2 min after the thermostat calls for heat. I would turn on the heat to it and wait a few min then check for power to the fan and heat unit. Not sure if a heat pump works the same. But I think it would since when the fan kicks in the are coming out is warm and not ice cold.

For the thermostat you can kill power to thee unit. Find the wire info for the system. Find the two wires for the fan and the two for the heat. Since a thermostat is a on off switch this is a way to test the system before buying a new thermostat.

Or use a cheap low volt switch to test it. Should be 12 to 24 volts. But some units can be 110volts for the thermostat most time that is a electric baseboard heat system.

For a voltmeter head to kmart walmart and pick up one. They should be anywhere from about 6 to 20 bucks. They have a lcd readout and will work on low and high volt ac dc.
It will look something like this mine is black.

Loading…

ebay.prnc.net

 

[toggleswitch]

burn, baby , burn

~can be enough to cause a stroke for me.
And a shower, and a massage, and some cuddling, and some kissing.......... My ex dabbles in Santeria as a brujo. I'll see if I can put in a good word.

Thanks Troy! 6 to 20? What am I waiting for?

~Yeah, Toggles, we don't want you going down in flames ... or up in flames ... whichever direction.
Going down. 2nd floor. Ladies lingerie, slips bras, panties.
Well thank you kindly. Some say I'm already flaming.

 

[toggleswitch]

~it is possible that the device............ which decides when to switch from heat pump to resistive heating has failed.
This is a very unsophisticated system where the change-over from heat-pump to resitance coils is:
1- Manually at the thermostat "HEAT" or "EM.HEAT" setting.
2- Automatically by the thermostat which is a Honeywell brand heat-pump mechanical two-stage thermostat with mercury tubes in it. One lever for heating, another for cooling. I don't recall if the thermostat's sub-base has an "AUTO" setting. This setting would allow for either heat or cooling decided by thermostat with no user intervention.

Should the room temp fall more than (I think) 2*F [1*C +/-] the thermostat runs both heat sources.

So Keven, there is no complicated electronic & thermostat cut- out or limiter or change-over device.

Dan I am writing panels within this thread with you in mind to explain the ins and outs. Feel free to email me directly if you want to ask more. I'm no expert, but that little piercing Virgo logical mind of mine has its good days, still. *LOL*

 

[toggleswitch]

Gift of gab

~argue electricty cases like a Philadelphia lawyer.

My grandfather used to say my mouth was an asset. Little did he know.

 

[andrewinorlando]

Steve, honey, you just keep on showing off those assets.....gramps would be proud!!!

 

[panthera]

At this point

Steve, I'm summing up below my understanding of the situation and how I'd go about checking it. Nothing new here, probably, just my little button of a brain grinding through the itterations.
If I understand correctly, you know that there is no 'logic' controlling the unit. That means every single 'decision' is based on either a timer or a thermostat or a mechanical switch.
Right?
If this be the case, then it would make sense to my little button of a brain to proceed as follows.
1) Make sure all the fuses or circuit breakers are working. Code specifies separate means to power off units like this within 'sight' of the unit. It could be that a simple cartridge fuse has failed in a not-so-sightly-box.
2) All the wiring connections tight and the wires not broken or chewed through? We have a nasty cousin of the beaver in Munich who loves to chew on insulation and seems impervious to high voltages.
3)Can each individual element of the system be proven to work, either by checking resistance or isolating it from the system and then powering it up?
4)Such devices, of necessity, have various safety and overload protection built in. They are designed to fail-safe. Check them.
5)Find the decision maker for each element of the system and, using a simple switch or bridge, set the system to resistive heat. At some point or other, the system will come on. That will tell you where the (or, one of the)problems is.

By the by, I know the problem of being cheated or outright abused because you aren't 'manly' enough. Makes me hate breeders with a passion. They do two minutes of 'work' (if the woman is lucky), she spends nine months of her too short life growing a parasite...then when it hatches, he crows all over the place while she, exhausted, gets bit and sucked dry. And not in a good way.
End of Rant...

 

[toggleswitch]

Nasty cousin of the beaver? *LOL*

I don't hate anyone. Such intensity usually robs the giver of his health. My issue is: What makes where you plant your seed superior to where mine goes? It all stinks and it's all pink on the inside.

~If I understand correctly, you know that there is no 'logic' controlling the unit. That means every single 'decision' is based on either a timer or a thermostat or a mechanical switch.
CORRECT.

1 & 2- I beleve all are Ok. Will check.
3 & 4- Must do.

Thanks all for you kind suggestions and reassurance. Now that I know that a proper meter is inexpensive, I'll get one and have the friend pay for it. Saves him from buying me and GadgetGary a dinner.

My biggest concern is that the 24 volt and 220v loops run side-by side in the same enclosure. Just need to make sure I'm not crossing one into the other. I'm guessing fried fairy is not very tasty.

 

[panthera]

Toggles,

I am still trying to get my head around everything being either 220V, Split-phase (I put that in every time cause it drives the anal-retentives crazy) with no single part of the unit being one 'leg' (hear them moan!) to neutral...I would really check that aspect.
The 24V together with the 220V is scary. Not permitted anymore in Germany, for obvious reasons...but it does raise a possibility. Silly as it sounds, if nothing else comes up as the source of trouble, you might try runing a twisted wire pair to the 24V users.
I try not to expend energy in hating anyone, just having breeders in my family who go out of the way to abuse me makes it tough at times...I've stayed out of their way completely the last six months and just now at Christmas, they mounted another attack...unprovoked!
And I don't think the mucho-machos get so upset about where they shoot their loads...it's where (and in whom) it lands which gets them upset. The worst macho cultures frequently see only the 'catcher' as being homosexual...whereas the 'pitcher' is a 'real' man.

 

[toggleswitch]

~there is no complicated electronic & thermostat cut- out or limiter or change-over device.

should read: electronic and /or THERMOSTATIC cut-out...........

 

[toggleswitch]

Fabulous, even baseball spoken of!

~I am still trying to get my head around everything being either 220V....or 24V.

HMMM. The only real possibilty of 110v in a heat-pump scenario (that I can think of) is the fan. So why bother? You'd only need two wires from the power supply that way, not three. So without a 110v component, any DEDICATED circuit (even with only two wires) may very easily be converted to 220v.

I know for a fact that some air-handlers in central air-condtioning systems (without heat) use 110v. My own Trane brand air-handler (A/C only) however is 220v.

The one-piece through-the-wall A/C's that use 220v do not have 110v components (i.e. the fan). Two wires and ground will do ya (three prong plug).

Electric clothes dryers here in the USA have 220v heaters with the balance of components using 110v; so three wires (and, per recent changes in code, a separate ground conductor and prong)are required.

 

[toggleswitch]

You can't screw me unless I lay down first.

~in my family who go out of the way to abuse me makes it tough at times...I've stayed out of their way completely the last six months and just now at Christmas, they mounted another attack...unprovoked!

"Love" does not give anyone the right to abuse anyone else. If anything we should treat blood BETTER than strangers.
I know how hard it is to avoid evil family.

Here is antother tid-bit. Women (as a class) need to have close personal and nurturing relationships; a support network if you will. Oftentimes their emotional needs cloud their logical judgement. We see evidence of this in the writings in Women's magazines, which address even the simplest of logical though-processies through the prevailing emotional entanglements and confusion. So, here you are at an advantage, as a man, and especially as an English-speaker. English-speaking societies generally pride themselves on taming and mastering one's emotional outbursts(where others embrace and encourge them). Say to yourself "I WILL NOT HAVE AN EMOTIONAL RESPONSE TO THIS ABUSE. It is meant to get me to respond." Ditto likewise YOU as a man (theoretically) can deal with separation from family better than any female (theoretically) in your family can. In other words you giving mom and your sisters the silent treatment hurts them much more than it hurts you. Dont be angry, don't be mean and don't be hurtful. Just be firm in your resolve.And don't forget the WIFM factor. What's in it for me? If they make you feel awful, why bother? My grandparents got up and left their parents and familes behind far far away to come here and better themselves. If your family does nothing but hurt you, it may be time to say "ENOUGH" and distance yourself.

That does not mean you don't love them and care about them. It simply means that you love youself enough to stop taking sh-t. True love is unconditional. But if they are putting conditions on it, then you have the right to do the same and MAKE THE RULES.

Be good to yourself first. Make youself happy and whole. That is YOUR job and no one will do it for you. Go forth in peace, and I apologize profusely for my strong opinions. Too much coffee today.You are loved by many! So if you have to ditch the few (even temporarily) so be it. Let's converse privately if I can be of any assistance.

Best regards,
Seve

 

[Cybrvanr]

The defrost cycle is activated by a controller in the outdoor compressor. Many of the older units, they were pretty basic, when the outdoor temp got below 40, a timer was activated that would count down a particular amount of time that could be set by the install technician. Around here, it was usually somewhere between 60 or 90 minutes. When that time came, the controller would activate the reversing valve, shut off the outside fan, and send 24 volts up the defrost line back into the house so the heat strips would activate. Today's systems are a bit more sophisticated because they use electronic computers. They can measure the temp of the coil and determine the proper length of the defrost cycle, some can even run faster defrost intervals depending on humidity, airflow, and temperature among other variables.

There are a few variations of that thermostat setup I stated earlier too if you have fossil-fuel backup heat, which have become very common in these parts. A forced air furnace has a built-in fan switch that will activate the fan when the heat exchanger temp gets above it's preset temp. Normally, when you are in heat mode in a system with electric backup, when auxilary heat is called, COMPRESSOR, FAN, and AUX HEAT are all "high". With a fossil-fuel system, when auxilary heat is called for, the COMPRESSOR and FAN lines are de-activated, shutting down the outdoor unit, and the indoor fan until the heat exchanger is up to full temperature. Once the auxilary heat is satisfied, it will go back to heat pump mode and shut off the fossil-fuel system.

Some dual-fuel systems also have an outdoor thermostat on the defrost board too. They will activate the defrost line at usually 40-35 degrees when the heat pump becomes inefficient. The thermostat will then sense this and cut off the COMPRESSOR and FAN circuits. Any time the thermostat calls for heat when this condition is met, the fossil-fuel furnace will provide the heat, and not the heat pump, thus saving electricity.

I have also seen a home where they have hot-water heating in conjunction with a heat pump. In these systems, the AUX HEAT line activates the circulation pump on the boiler to distribute heat to the radiators. When the boiler gets too cool, the burner is lit using an internal thermostat. These systems sometimes leave people scratching their heads, because the boiler's burner will sometimes run even when the system is in heat pump mode, or not even calling for heat, leading the user to believe the system is heating, when all it's doing is "topping off" the heat in boiler due to heat loss.