Heat Pumps - Why they are already a wise investment

[appnut]

Barry, thank you for taking the time to provide such an excellent, detailed explanation.

As I've stated a few times previously, I knew my builders grade HP was not good compared to one my parents had in their vacation home. And thanks to John L (Combo52) for providing me with information at the 2002 wash-in that when times comes for me to replace my heat pump, to get one with a variable speed air handler and multi-speed compressor. Which I did and experience was like night & day difference.

 

[bradfordwhite]

turbokinetic

No one's preventing you from learning. Everyone, including myself, have presented quality ideas.

Life is full of ideas and concepts. Some work better than others. Some are better fitted to certain situations.

It sounds more like you're only looking for a monotone choir to preach the joys of something.
Starting a thread requesting that "only those who want to speak positively about xxxxxx...." would be suggested. Or would that be too blatantly exclusionary?
It's not presenting reality but people do it.

 

[bradfordwhite]

#24

heat pump water heaters, especially if installed inside a house are a terrible idea.

They make loud noise vs. total or near quiet of electric and the soft burning sound of a standing pilot water heater when it's heating.

What's worse is (unless they've changed how these are made), they aren't vented to the outdoors which means the cold air they are creating when running is being dumped inside your home. That might be fine for summer but if it's winter you don't want something adding yet MORE cool air when you are trying to heat the air.

These are ridiculously expensive and because they have all these moving parts it's going to require expensive repairs and certainly won't last long.

My Aunt and Uncle built a new house in 72 with a standard 40 gallon electric water heater. They sold the house in 99. She admitted they were lucky because it lasted all that time without them doing anything to it.
The only maintenance an electric water heater needs is to occasionally drain water off the bottom. She stated they never did that. lol. And it lasted all those years.

----

Remember- Not encumbering one's self with complicated possessions and obligations is one of the most complicated but rewarding things a smart person can do.

You can always tell the true intelligence of a person by the lack of liabilities they have around their neck.

 

[turbokinetic]

@ reply28... John; my house in Alabama has an 80's vintage heat pump system. It's not fancy. A Goodman with Copland recip compressor.  It's air source and works fine in our climate here.  When I lived with my parents, I had thought about building a lake-source system since they live on a lake which would be much warmer than the air during winter. 

 

It would have been interesting to see how the energy use of the pump to bring lake water to the heat exchanger would be offset by the warmer heat source.  It would seem to me, that the biggest savings would be during the summer air conditioning season, with cooler condenser temps due to the lake water. 

I had considered building something similar to a "keel cooler" and routing the refrigerant from the unit to the lake, to eliminate the need for a pump. That would have been costly for many reasons due to the distance from the house to the lake.

 

[gizmo]

What's worse is they aren't vented to the outdoors

Are you kidding?

I have NEVER seen a heat pump water heater indoors.

They are extremely common in Australia, since at least the 1980s.

They are always installed outdoors if they are an all-in-one unit.

There are a couple of split system ones, where the tank can be mounted indoors but the compressor/condenser/fan unit is outdoors. Siddons used to be made with flat-plate condensers that mounted flat on the roof, so they got direct solar gain as a bonus, but these aren't made any more.

https://renew.org.au/resources/how-.../how-we-can-help-heat-pump-hot-water-systems/

 

[foraloysius]

I've been following this thread with interest, but I must say I was pretty flabbergasted that there would be such a thing like a heat pump water heater with an indoor heat pump. Never heard of that!

Overhere in the NL we have combined systems, water heater and heating system in one. Now try that with an indoor heat pump! lol

 

[gizmo]

I'm not sure I believe there is such a thing as an indoor heat pump.

 

 

[combo52]

Heat Pump Water Heaters

Are Wonderful Energy Savers and for homes in the US without Natural Gas are one of the biggest money and energy savers available at a reasonable cost to the home owner.

 

US HPWHs are all installed indoors, the compressor in integrated on top of a 50 gallon water heater.

 

Having lived with one and the many friends I have with them every body I have talked to about them loved them.

 

The many advantages of having the entire unit indoors is the unit assists in cooling and dehumidifying in warmer months which is over 1/2 the year in most of the US.

 

Noise levels are very low, usually less than a dehumidifier. 

 

The power consumption is around 1,200 watts compared to 4,500 for a typical US electric heater. They need to be in an area with ventilation [ not a tiny tight closet ] If the ambient temperature goes much below 50F it may revert to resistance heating.

 

From talking to people with HPWHs you usually save $20 a month for a single person living in a house, most people in the US are entitled to a Federal tax credit of $500, state and unity credits in addition often bring the cost down below $500 installed or about the same as a cheap electric water heater.

 

All major water heater makers are selling lots of these in the US, the department banned sales of residential WHs over 50 gallons except for HPWHS several years ago.

 

John L.

 

[appnut]

I was really drooling over the potential of replacing my Whirlpool Energy Smart HWH with a Hybrid Water Heater but my water heater is located in raised closet in the garage next to the air handler for my HVAC, so no go. At least Rheem/Ruud offers a water heater with similar concept as my current water heater--"intelligently" maintaining reserve temperature based upon usage patterns and will maintain at a lower temperature but then increase to set point when demand requires it. The Rheem also has an app whereby you can control the temperature from your phone, which would be helpful if I ended up with having a SQ front loader and could increase temperature from what I currently keep at (120-125) and increase the temp to 140 or 145 when I have to do a "sanitize" wash since it doesn't have an onboard heater.

 

[bradfordwhite]

Want to boost water temps for your washer.

Try a compact 2 1/2, 4, or 6 gallon 120 volt water heater with a 30 minute switch.

Before you're going to do laundry simply turn on the switch and let it heat the water to 150 degrees.

Connect the washing machine hose directly to the water heater and connect the water heater inlet hose to the hot water faucet.

It only uses electric for that short period of time.

Very efficient and no noise pollution.

Affordable and easy to install.

 

[bradfordwhite]

It looks like (once again) EU countries and those affiliated, are doing things in a logical way compared to us in the U.S. No surprise.

If one is going to use a heat pump, you'd want the heat exchanger outdoors. I'm happy to hear that they at least exist.

It's totally inferior to want that noisy contraption indoors dumping cold air.

I remember looking at a model home with one of these things in it and it was running and I was like what is that noise in the basement? ehhhh.

This is like those vending machines that weirdly make a LOT of noise when all they are is a refrigerator that never gets opened. It should make less noise than a household refrigerator, not more.

Noise pollution is such a problem in the U.S. We should do everything to avoid adding to the problem.

 

[DADoES]

 
Considering that I've run air conditioning for the past 3 days, a heat pump water heater in the house providing some cooling and dehumidification would be a positive.  Such a unit unfortunately wouldn't fit in the small broom closet where my tankless is mounted.

 

[bradfordwhite]

Likewise there are people in cold climates or during periods of cold, icy weather but the electric is working, that have vented their electric dryer indoors. Not a gas dryer because of course the asphyxiation risk and the smell and soot. This way one can capture the heat and humidity. I've done that myself. But it creates a lot of dust.

 

[DADoES]

 
Which is why there are products on the market that fit a range of needs.

 

[bradfordwhite]

Yep, but not ALL the products which means it's not a free and open market here in the U.S.

WHERE are the heat pump water heaters that one would install outside?
Where is an affordable compact car like the Hyundai i10?
And why don't most "Americans" have access to public transport?

A closed or BIASED market especially in an increasingly world market is not acceptable.



If one diverts the dryer vent to vent inside, that's very simple.

If one were foolish or innocent enough to have a loud heat pump water heater INSIDE their home and it's cool outside so you have the heat on, how are you going to divert that cool air outdoors?

 

[DADoES]

 
Installation in a 31" x 28" broom closet in a small indoor laundry room obviously isn't ideal.  A larger laundry room may be workable.  A garage or exterior storage area would be perfect.

Sister's water heater is in the attic.  Not a good location for a 40- or 50-gal tank of water ... but being that's where is it, workable for a hybrid.

A.O. Smith units cite an optional duct kit for installation in a "confined" space.

Some Rheem units I checked cite refrigeration of 4,200 BTU (a small window unit) and noise level of 49 dBA.

 

[bradfordwhite]

Being from a northern state, the idea of a water heater in an attic seems ridiculous.
However, for a southern state it's actually a really good idea because

1. heat rises. Attics get hot helping to heat water and keep it hot, thus saving money and energy. Also, the heat from the water heater doesn't enter one's living environment. Another positive.

2. Southern homes don't usually have basements so it saves space by putting it in unused attic.

3. If it's gas it's got a short chimney and the gas is outside your living space.

The only thing is having a attic flor that can handle the weight and leaks.
Having a pan under would def. be a requirement.

 

[gizmo]

our 250 litre solar HWS is in the attic. It has a drain pan under. (steel tray leading to a drain pipe that drops out under the eave.)

We had to double up the ceiling joists to support the weight.

mounting it there allowed us to mount the solar hot water panels low down on the roof, and the heated water thermosyphons back up to the tank.(no pump.)

Usually you have to install them over a supporting wall, but we were able to demonstrate that our double framing was adequate to support the weight, and couldn't mount over a wall because the wall continues up to support the roof ridge beam.

It works a treat.