Help- Need new washer- front or top?? recommendations?

[hoovermatic]

I too have used both TL and FL and they both have their merits. I own an h-axis TL which is essentially the same as a FL for capacity and wash action. I have to say that there are times when I have a shed load of washing to do that I would trade it for a large TL with a short cycle. At the end of the day, the majority of the laundry I do is more to do with freshening up (towels, workshirts etc) They aren't dirty in the sense that they have discernable 'stains'. A TL with short cycle would suit me but I do not have the luxury of space to accomodate one (at the moment). My Mum has had a typical euro FL since 1981. She went from being a 'dyed in the wool' Hoover twin tub user, sceptical of the cleaning ability of an automatic washing machine. She tells me that from the very first use, she was converted. She goes on to say that in 25 years, she has only used the prewash about 3 times, never soaks anything and only pretreats stains like red wine, tomato sauce with a quick blast of Vanish/Shout spray. She has never had cause to complain about rinsing ability and, like me, said that the only time she has ever had to re-rinse a load is when she has overdosed detergent. As for wear and tear on clothes, I am amazed that anyone could have reason to say that a FL is more inclined to cause wear/tear/pilling etc than any other wash action. In my experience, this is simply not the case.

I am constantly perplexed by the number of problems that US users of FL find with these machines. I understand that capacity and cycle times are a major factor with the tendancy to stick with a TL. What I do not understand are the issues with rinsing and cleaning ability, moulding, unpleasant odours being left on washed clothes etc. Is there something missing in your HE detergents? Are the programmes not tested correctly in research and development stages?

With all of the problems that I read about on here, occuring with your FL's, I wouldn't buy one either!! What I don't understand is why you are experiencing them. Are there fundemental design differences in the two machines?

It is a shame that they seem to have gotten off to such a poor start in the USA - here in the UK at least, we have been using them since about the beginning of the 1970's and although they have morphed into the most amazing pieces of equipment compared to their early counterparts, I hope that you guys don't have to wait a similar length of time to appreciate that although they use a fraction of the water and take longer, they are every bit as good at cleaning, rinsing and fabric care and far more energy efficient than a water guzzling large capacity TL.

(I would still trade my machine for a GE Harmony with window in the lid!)

 

[varenovator]

USA User Error!!

I suspect the big difference between USA experiences and European has to do with our unfortunate habit of demanding quick and easy. We throw whatever into the machine, pick a random cycle ('normal' sounds nice today), throw some powder in (maybe the right amount, in the right slot, maybe not) and turn it on. Cold water? Warm? Hot? I'm not supposed to worry about that - the machine knows what to do. Extra rinse? Takes too much time. If the 'normal' cycle takes more than 40 minutes, I'll use 'quick wash' for 30 minutes next time. The machine wobbles?? Call service (what's a level???) And then we complain about the performance.
I also have a sneaking suspicion that when you upsize a perfectly well behaved 6kg Euro FL into a 9 or 10kg US behemoth, physics catches up to you (I think someone somewhere did the g-force math for when you increase the diameter of a object spinning at 1000 rpm, and it wasn't pretty).

 

[rayjay]

Front Loaders/Top Loaders

Hoovermatic, I agree with you. As I said previously I have and LG fronloader, the one made for the USA and I also have an AEG Bella LAVAMAT from Germany which I bought 14 years ago. This machine also boils as most of the European machines do. I have to say I think both machines do a great job. In fact, I have to say, that for cleaning, rinsing and fabric care, the front loader does it best.

 

[brettsomers]

front loaders

my best friend bought a whirlpool duet (at my suggestion) and the standard non-matching whirlpool dryer. i suspected the regular standard dryer would work for him and save him money. i was right. he has had the duet for about two years and LOVES it. he has many blankets and comforters and has always had satisfactory results. i noticed the shockingly low water levels myself (i am a classic Maytag fan) at first and had my doubts. there was no need to worry. i once tossed an admittedly dirty pillow in with a load of whites. when i pulled the CLEAN pillow out i was convinced. i have washed HUGE loads; underwear, towels, tshirts, washcloths, socks. good results everytime. "sudsmaster" makes some very good points, esp about the variable water usage. btw, my friend uses REGULAR detergent!! i ADORE the elegance of a center-dial Maytag with its brawny perforated basket and the deliberate and unfailing action provided by the turquoise agitator. I CANNOT deny the front loaders merits.

 

[gansky1]

Don't believe everything the clerk at a store will tell you, washing bathmats in your Maytag top-loader had nothing to do with it's premature failure. Maytag has been plagued by these water problems for some time now and it simply boils down to poor quality construction on their part. As long as you don't load more than a couple in a top-loader, you should be just fine. It's best to dry these over the shower rod or on a line as the heat in a dryer will speed up the disintegration of the rubber backing much faster. When you notice pieces of the rubber backing starting to flake off, it's time for a new bathmat.

As far as what new washer to buy, decide what you can afford to spend and buy the best you can get for the money. You really can't go horribly wrong with most of the new Whirlpool products.

 

[whirlcool]

and don't forget the Staber washing machine. It's a H-axis washer in a top loading format. They are susposed to be very reliable, and all parts are accessable from the front panel. It is designed to be serviced by the end user.
Their website has a video of one in operation and they seem to use a generous amount of water in the wash cycle.

http://www.staber.com

 

[mickeyd]

The sad truth

I love all washing machines--without exception, especially the relatively new Chinese washers, the Haiers. Unfortunately, they all seem to arrive in America dented, or busted in some manner. I think our brothers in shipping and trucking resent the influx of Chinese goods, fearing that someday we will be their slaves, carting them around in ricshaws. HA HA--wonder how you spell ricshaw!

The other day I stuffed my giant comforter in the agitatorless Haier portable. It did not move around too much. Normaly the same comforter gets washed in my Whirlpoo Top-loader (TL) where it does move around. Both machines get the thing clean. But the Haier cheats . It soaks for 20 minutes, washes for 15, and rinses twice, and spins at hurling speeds like the front loaders. The Whirlpool washes for nine minutes, rinses once, and doesn't extract as much water.

Look, I digress. Sorry. Here's the point. In the In TL-FL Sweepstakes which Consumer Reports runs annually, they never tell the whole truth. TL's use a more powerful HE detergent. They can soak and wash forever; they can heat the water; they rinse three times or four on the extra rinse option; and they can spin like hell. And with all of that they barely beat out most of the TL's. So imagine if we play fairly and equalize the playing field. Turn up your hot water tank, use the HE Tide, leave the lid open so that your load will soak after the wash for an hour, select extra rinse, and your clothes will be on their way to God, creaming any front loader. The only thing the front loader can do better is extract water. Without special detergent and long washes, soaks, multiltle rinsing, it could not equal the performance of TL. Now, the retroactive proof: For years and years, I have sent out my shirts to a commercail front loading launday, maybe a half dozen times each year, just because I like the starch and the professional ironing, or because I'm lazy and in a hurry. THE COLLARS NEVER EVER EVER COME BACK TOTALLY CLEAN--NEVER EVER ONCE !!! I SWEAR TO GOD. BUT.... When the EasySpin or the GE or the Whirlpools, BD or
DD, or the Maytag does the shirts , the collars NEVER EVER EVER ONCE COME OUT DIRTY-- N O T O N E T I M E D I R T Y !!! I SWEAR TO GOD I'm telling the truth. And the truth often hurts. The tests are all rigged to favor the FL's. Think about it long and hard. It will never work. Most Americans hate to stoop to wash; hence all the pedestals for the TL's. It's nor going to happen here. Top loaders are here to stay.

 

[frontloadfan]

Swear Comforters No Problem

Hey Mistervain,

I have the Kitchenaid fl, which is made by whirlpool and shares most of the same functions/cycles as the Kenmore HE and the Whirlpool Duet. I have the option of adding an Autosoak as an option. In other words, before the indicated cycle starts, my machine will run in autosoak mode for a full 30 minutes. Initial action is to fill machine up to the bottom of the glass. It does this in stages, with robusts tumbles. Once the water level has reached to the bottom of the glass in the door, there are pauses of a minute or so between the tumbles. If it is a smaller load, all of the clothing will stay in the water the entire soak time. If the load is larger, the clothes are churned in and out of the water. At the conclusion the 30 minutes the machine will drain but not spin before starting the selected cycle. Autosoak or soak options are two features to look for in a front loader if you are looking for a really wet wash. Some machines include "weter" cycles such as "bulky". If your machine has more than a few cycles, chances are some of the cycles feature significantly more water.

I know the Kenmore version of my machine offers a skin care rinse that features a higher water level. Of course, about all front loaders give you the option of adding an extra rinse. Sure a top loader uses a ton of water to rinse. Front loaders are frugal with the rinse water, but feature 3 or more rinses coupled with high spin speed in between to provide a very effective rinse.

Regarding your comforter issue, I wander if you machine does not function properly? As another poster noted, the machine will strive to fill up to the desingated level. If your machine is working properly, there should be no dry spots in the comforter at all.

To the posting talking about how the Consumer Reports tests are slanted to favor the Front Loader, it should be noted that the factors mentioned (use HE detergent, can heat water, provide 3 or 4 rinses, etc) are all part of what makes the front loader a front loader. The bottom line is that the front loader does clean just as well - if not better - that the top loader and does so using a fraction of the water and energy. In my book that is something to feel good about.

On a side issue, is HE detergent really more potent than regular detergent? I always understood that HE detergent was formulated to minimize suds to avoid oversuddsing in the smallers amount of water used in the FL. In other words, if you used HE detergent in a top loader, would it clean better than regular detergent? Another positive factor, as I understand, is that even though you tend to use less detergent in a front loader compared to a top loader, the ratio of detergent to water is still much greater in the front load wash water compare to the top load wash water.

As to whether the conventional top loader will endure, that is another question. Just like the government stepped in and said you cannot use 5 gallons of water to flush your toilet, the day is coming when they will say you can't use 50 gallons of water to wash a load of clothes! No one likes to be told what they can do or buy, but limited resources may eventually mandate the elimination of the conventional top loader.

 

[frigilux]

Take a slow, deep, relaxing breath. Now, exhale. There. Don't worry, no one is going door-to-door confiscating TL'ers. If you believe they're better, then continue using them.

 

[mickeyd]

Hey Mister Swimfan

Such a subtle know-it-all like yourself should know that High Efficiency Detergents are more powerful than their humbler counterparts. Do some experimenting.

What will you do when the Chinese government tells you what to do? Having stooped so long downloading your frontloader, you'll be a prime candidate for ricshawing the authoritarians you so clearly worship.
'

 

[mistervain]

Frontloadfan, my experience has been with a Kenmore front loader that doesn't have the "soak" or other special options. I love FL's--except for the water usage issue. Is this Kitchenaid you have still sold?

The only FL currently on the market with variable water levels that I am aware of is the Danby. I have been wanting to buy one of those, or something similar, as I have heard about even stricter 2007 Energy Star guidelines to take effect.

If these FL's (like the Kenmore I have tried) used any less water, the clothes would be dry!

Someone else mentioned the Miele, but the Mieles made for the American market are also Energy Star according to their website. 7 gallons per cycle?? Give me a break!!

 

[norgeman]

Front Loaders

What I wish is that they all would fill up to half way up the window like the old Westinghouses used to. It might use a little more water but I think it would do a better job of cleaning and also put a water lever dial so we can adjust the level our selves and not have it done for us. I'm sorry but this cold water tide that they have on the market is not for me I still like using hot water for washing whites and a warn water rinse. Be careful about using it as I have seen in the past when they brought a new product out on the market later they learn that it did some kind of thing and had to be taken of the market. And besides they tried this with Cold Power laundry detergent durning the 70's and it floped. So be warned some things aren't as good as they would like you to believe.

http://[email protected]

 

[mistervain]

Norgeman I couldn't agree more.

 

[lavamat_jon]

I don't get as to why so many Americans get the impression that frontloaders cannot clean at all. Frontloaders have been around here in Europe for years and every single one I have used has been able to get clothes clean in a low water level wash. Nobody's clothes here smell (unless you use one of those awfully ineffective eco-friendly detergents such as Ecover, but then this would cause problems in a toploader just as much as in a frontloader), nobody has hunchbacks from unloading the washer (bear in mind you have to bend over anyway to unload the dryer, and from the toploaders I've used you've actually had to bend more to peel laundry off teh side of the tub after the cycle), and I don't know of many people who have stains left in their clothes - and usually when they do they're misusing the washer, in terms of either overloading it, using the completely wrong cycle/temperature, or simply using too little detergent, or a cheaper ineffective one at that.

High water levels actually compromise the tumbling action in frontloaders, which is exactly why delicate cycles in front loaders fill more - so as to cushion the laundry more from the tumbling which gets standard loads such as whites or towels thoroughly clean. Low water levels are best for washing in a frontloader, as the tumbling is more pronounced the lower the water level goes. For a standard load of towels or clothes, which have standard absorbency rates and don't require a lot of water in order to be saturated, you don't need a water level any higher than an inch or so in the bottom of the tub for good cleaning. I can get my whites white without the need for a prewash, or high wash water levels - most of my white loads are pretty grotty (I have a younger brother who goes outside in white socks with no shoes on), and with a dose of Persil, a 50*C wash, and 3 rinses, I can have a load of whites back to white in my Miele in 1:16. Sure, the cycle takes 46 minutes longer than your average TL but that is more or less only because of the long spins the Miele does between the rinses, as well as the multiple rinses, and also bear in mind that it has to heat the wash water up from cold. All stains are fully removed, the whole load is rinsed thoroughly, and I've used a lot less water than I would have done to wash the same load in a toploader.

Sure, I find toploaders are fun as any washer enthuasiast would, but the ones I've used in coin op launderettes at least washed nowhere near as well, nor rinsed as well, as any frontloader I have used, even my old shitty Hotpoint which I absolutely loathed. I'm not anti-TL or anti-FL - as I just said I like both designs of machine and both are as fun as each other - but we should stop shadowing the real truth with our enthuasiasm.

Of course, anybody with half a care for the environment and the future generation (such as the one I will have to grow up in) will understand that energy efficient measures, whether its in the laundry, the bathroom, on the road, or whatever you can think of, will help sustain future generations. Sure, some may feel that they are being dictated as to what they can and cannot use and that their freedom is being taken away, but wouldn't you rather give the freedom to future generations, the freedom of having luxuries such as electricity, the freedom of having enough drinking water, the freedom of being able to breath in the air outside? And that point aside, at this point in time anyway nobody is saying that you can't buy a toploader - but I certainly feel a lot less guilty not wasting energy to heat the wash water or using a smaller amount of water to do essentially the same job as a toploader can do which, let's face it, is simply more inefficient at doing the same job.

Mistervain - the US Miele is programmable, as all other Miele's worldwide are, with the Sensitive option. As mentioned in another thread you can mod this option to give you an extra rinse, a higher water level, or an extra rinse and a higher water level. Of course they do also have the Delicates cycle, which uses a high water level throughout.

Mickeyd - perhaps the laundry you send your shirts too is using an ineffective detergent if you are having stains left over on your collars, I highly doubt it is solely because they use frontloaders.

Shoot me all you want guys, I've already said that I like both frontloaders and toploaders equally, but nobody can deny that frontloaders are essentially more efficient at doing the same job provided that they are used properly.

Jon

 

[frontloadfan]

Hi Lavamat

I am really surprised that you have been able to experience top loaders in England. I have visited London a few times and each time I go I end up doing a wash at a laundramat and I have never seen a top loader!

I think Europe is so far ahead of the US in terms of the enviroment/ecology and all of that. The times I have been in a London laundrmat, I have been impressed. If you need detergent, you put in your coins in a machine and the laundry detergent is dispenced into a re-usable cup. Here in the U.S. everything is packaged.

Another big difference I have noticed is that in London, some of the laudramats will have front load washers stacked on top of each other. I have never seen that here in the states.

Any case, thanks for your input.

 

[vivalalavatrice]

The real difference

I have already said it in some post else...
In the states you find difference between FL and TL, because of the different washing sistem: TL has a completely filled vertical tub, and agitate your clothes back and forth, while FL hase a minimun filled horizontal drum, and tumble your clothes to get 'em clean.
Here in Europe common TL work as well as a FL, tumbling the laundry, that's why there's no difference between them here!
French love Eropean TL, in fact in France the 90% circa of washers are TL.
The 1947 Lauderall, and the Staber washers are TL American washers that work in the same manner as a European TL washer (no agitator, tumble action).
I think that here in Europe you can find American TL washers maybe only in Laundrettes and perhaps there is only a model of Whirlppol UK brand.
Without any doubt if you have to choose on the water savarage, American FL such as Whirlpool Duet, or other brads which produce washers like it (FL I mean), you do the best choice...
GoodBye everyone!
Diomede

 

[frigilux]

norgeman-- I certainly understand your reluctance to use cold water. I've said several times that I never, EVER thought I would, either. The thought of washing a load of whites in cold water just didn't make sense to me. But Tide CW is the best-cleaning detergent I've ever used. Period. No contest. It gets out stains in 65-degree water that Tide HE liquid and 145-degree water did not. Again, I'll only use the powdered version of Tide CW. The liquid is very good, but the powder trumps it for stain removal.

I remember Cold Power, too. But it didn't clean well, which is why it flopped. Plus, I think people were even less inclined to use cold water back in the 60's-early 70's. Many washers didn't even rinse in cold water back then.

 

[frigilux]

Jon, you have to remember that we're Americans. Bigger, louder, more, more, more, just HAS to be better. And we can afford that attitude because water, utility and fuel prices are still far cheaper here than they are in the UK and Europe.

 

[srswirl]

Cold Power

You know, I must be going senile, because I remember Cold Power VERY differently than everyone else. Cold Power was, BY FAR, the BEST laundry detergent I have EVER used...it left Persil in the DUST. My father was a car mechanic...and you've not seen (or smelled) dirty laundry (except possibly for diapers) until you've seen what a mechanic can bring home on his clothing. Every chemical under the sun in addition to the oil and gas. Cold Power consistently removed any and every stain and odor I ever remember him bringing home. His collars would be black from the sweat and, upon washing with Cold Power, would look like they had never been worn. And we had a BOL Kenmore with a simple straight vane agitator. I loved this stuff and BEGGED (I mean, literally begged, folks) Lever Brothers to bring it back to my area when they discontinued it. We used to buy it in 60lb boxes! Fond memories!

Today I use an FL and lots of hot, hot water along with good detergents. But I haven't witnessed anything today that Cold Power couldn't equal...or even best. The more I learn on these forums about detergents, the more I am convinced that water chemistry is a far larger part of the picture of how well (or poorly) a detergent works than most people think. We had common ground water from a well. Every time you started using water, you would hear the pump come on.

 

[rayjay]

High Water Levels compromise tumbling action

Lavamat jon. This would make sense in that the early Bendix front loaders were not that good in cleaning. They did have high water levels. I remember this from the laudromats. The clothes sort of floated. This would support your theory for the "Delicate" cycle in that it uses more water (which my LG does) to cushion the clothes.

Ray