Home heating rip offs..

[norgeway]

In the 80s and 90s I worked for a HVAC company doing mostly oil and gas furnace service, some boilers, and some sheet metal work, lately I have been reading some of the on line forums about HVAC stuff, and I am AMAZED at how crooked the industry as a whole has gotten,telling people because their furnace is old it is automatically unsafe, selling people one of the new so called flame retention burners to "upgrade" their furnace, and worst of all, telling them their 40 or 50 year old furnace is 30 or 40 or 50 percent efficient..that is the biggest lie of all, granted some furnaces are rusted out and unsafe, but most were built in the 70s and 80s, the really old ones from the 50s like Iron Fireman, Waterbury,York, Delco,Milwaukee Thermoflo,Oneida,Williamson,Coleman and Lennox, with proper care and servicing will run and last practically forever, its the junk made in the last 35 years that burns up cracks and the sorry fiberfax combustion chambers disentergrate,real steel and firebricks last, and a direct drive blower is nothing but a noisy expensive repair job waiting to happen, an adjustable belt drive unit is much better, on boilers the old Bell and Gossett circulator will outlast these mini pumps used today 3 to1..I could go on and on,but Im more convinced than ever, just about anything old is vastly superior to the junk being pawned off on people today, especially older people who can be scared into spending a lot of money needlessly....Rant over LOL

 

[DADoES]

 
My neighbor ran into an apparent scam with a local company that installed a system in a house he's renovating as a rental property.  Per the contract specs, a 3.5-ton heat pump system with 15KW of backup strips.  Long story shorter, among other problems with the install, he verified by checking the demand and KWH readings on the house's electric meter that only 10KW was installed.  The installer verified 10KW upon being called to come check, and agreed to make the correction ... but they had to run additional wiring to support 15KW, which is the clue to the scam because that wouldn't be necessary if they had run the correct wiring per the contract specs but mistakenly installed only 10K of strips ... apparently it was deliberate.

 

[wayupnorth]

Fortunately, I have a trusted friend who is certified in only the oil side of heating and has kept my system going just fine all these years. I had a circulator pump leaking, he put a new pump in. 2 days later the new one sprayed anti freeze all over. He replaced it within hours, no charge. 4 hours later the main burner was dead, he came back, replaced the motor and again, no charge. He said you paid for one pump replacement, because it was defective, I cant honestly charge you for the rest but my supplier will pay dearly.

 

[stricklybojack]

Some years back..

.
the heat from my mothers vents smelled of carbon dioxide or perhaps carbon monoxide, i forget which..but i do remember the smell was more serious in scent than odiferous, if that makes any sense. I was told we should replace the circa 1973 AirTemp gas furnace due to a manifold leak. We did, and as a side benefit the new unit was quieter than the old one after i chose a lower speed for the fan.
I got the new furnance online. I forgot the brand name, not a name i recognized even, but the technnician who diagnosed the problem, and who we hired to install it, said it was a good choice.
We went this route to avoid being sold a furnace we didn't need as related previously.

Does this sound legit?

 

[norgeway]

Yep,

Carbon monoxide is nothing to play with, it can and will kill you, silently and quietly with no or very little warning, there still are a few honest service guys out there.im just put out with the ones who condemn a furnace just because its old...there are many times when a cracked heat exchanger makes a furnace very unsafe,,but the 1950s stuff , unless in a damp location, usually lasts forever.

 

[warmsecondrinse]

My grandparents got taken in by a scam. I'm just not clear on who the scammers were as several family members were of the same opinion but unable to explain anything or identify their information source(s):

My grandparents had a 1000 gallon oil tank buried in their yard and a huge steam boiler in their basement. Both were in the house when they bought it in 1953.There were never any problems except for something small that broke every 5-10 years. Whatever the repair was, it was minor and there was no suggestion of replacing the boiler or anything else in the system.

Out of apparently nowhere my grandfather said he needed the oil tank so my uncle (his son) wouldn't have to deal with it after he was gone. I explained that no, buried oil tanks were safest buried and if they leaked (their was not) they were pumped out and filled with concrete. The point was that there was no reason to do anything. Second, for no apparent reason the boiler 'needed' to be replaced. Again, nobody was able to shed any light on why. I think I was able to get through enough to my grandfather enough for him to realize that there was something seriously wrong with this whole scenario. Honestly, I think he was just too tired to deal with the hullaballoo that would have ensued had he changed his mind. He was in his mid-90's at the time so I can't blame him.

So, the boiler was replaced, the buried oil tank taken out, and a basement gas stove removed to put a 250 gallon oil tank into the basement.

The point is that to this day I have no idea who fed my grandfather those lies. There was never any problem identified with any aspect of the heating system. Mine was the only dissenting voice and it was ignored as it always is. so there's no doubt in my mind that there was some kind of scam; I just don't know who the scammers were....

Jim

 

[a440]

Hans,

 

I can't imagine the wonderful furnaces that were built from the 1930's - 1960's that we torn out because they owner was told by a "qualified professional" that their system was unsafe due to age.  Or of course how inefficient they were because of their age.  Furnaces that could have run another 40+ years.  It truly makes me angry.

 

If you watch videos on Youtube of furnace replacements that are due to age and cracked heat exchangers...the contractor that does the video always either has the gas furnace upside down so you can't see the "cracked" heat exchanger or they don't show you it at all.  They always tell you that it is cracked.  Bull!

 

One of my neighbors called me last summer telling me that she just had a check up on her furnace that was only 6 years old.  The "professional" told her she should totally replace her unit because the newer units were much more energy efficient and she would save and pay for the unit in 2 years in energy savings!  I told her he was much worse than a car salesman and to forget he ever came by.  Sadly I truly think she would have fell for his bull if she did not talk to me.

 

It makes me sad to think of the furnaces and A/C units that were trashed for no reason at all.  Or they were taken out then sold on Craigslist as second hand.  I think a lot of that crap goes on also.

 

B

 

[stricklybojack]

If an oil tank leaks..

.
which they all do sooner or later, your well water will be ruined.
Happened to friends in upstate NY. They had to drill a new, radically deeper well at the edge of their property. It cost a fortune, replacing old tanks is relatively cheap insurance imo.

 

[norgeway]

I never liked

Buried tanks, if one leaks now and an inspector finds it out, it will cost a fortune to dig up all the contaminated soil,I like them on top of the ground, in the basement is good also, much less condensation than outside.

 

[whirlcool]

There are still a few good guys out there, but they are getting harder to find. And within a single company you can have both scam artists and honest guys.

Awhile back I had a message about a woman who the same company that installed our replacement system back in 2011. They tried to rip her off royally. Fortunately I was there to throw the guy out of the house. He "claimed" to have photos of her heat exchanger that was rusted and "had holes in it" and the entire 6 year old Carrier furnace needed replacing at a cost of $18K. I quickly realized that the photos he had were of a different furnace than what was installed in her house and he took me upstairs to demonstrate how the furnace won't light up therefore proving his point that it needs replacing. I went up there with him, he cycled the unit and it wouldn't light. Then I told him if he puts the power lead back on the gas valve the unit would light up.

He did and we went through 8 cycles with the furnace lighting properly each and every time. He then grumbled "Well, just because it works in the fall doesn't mean it'll work in the winter". I told the homeowner the guy is trying to rip you off and then I unceremoniously threw him out of the house warning him never to come back again! The woman called the company and complained. The owner of the company told her he wasn't there so he couldn't comment on what went on.

BUT, I'll tell you what's driving a lot of these rip off situations. A lot of manufacturers give independent companies quotas to sell each month. If they don't make quota each and every month the manufacturer threatens to pull their "Authorized Service Center" license on them. So the owners of the independents pass this down to their service techs telling them that "you either sell XX amount of furnaces this month or you're outta here!".

I used to think the guy across the street was an honest A/C heating guy. I called him on the phone just to price the installation of a start capacitor on an A/C unit. He told me about $425.00. I told him $425! Are you nuts? Why so expensive. I can go to Lowes or Home Depot and buy one for about $35. He said that the ones he buys are of a much higher quality than is generally available to the public. Look, a capacitor is a capacitor and the guy's also a rip off artist.I don't think these guys who try to rip people off have any consciousness.

I find situations like this are common in areas where the techs know that the end consumer has no knowledge in their areas of expertise and take advantage of that.

 

[norgeway]

I Think..

The best oil furnaces on the market would be Thermo Pride and Hallmark,but Im still no fan of the Beckett burners, I want to see a Reillo, I hear they are good, The Holland furnace company used to do a neighborhood "Furnace inspection"..what they would do was take the furnace apart and then say it was a fire trap and show the homeowner pictures of oil furnace fires...they tried that in my hometown in the 60s and one of the guys I used to work for found out what they were doing when they tore out the big old Esso furnace that was in the house belonging to the widow of the Esso dealer,Hillard happened to see their truck and stopped, he asked Mrs Estep why she let them change her furnace as he had serviced it a few months earlier, she told him they said it was dangerous and the heat exchanger was cracked...when they couldn't prove it, he called the better business bureau and got them ran out of town.

 

[arbilab]

How many other service industries pirate upon their customers' ignorance? HVAC is one of the worst now, as replacements are always 4 figures. Gypsy roofers come to mind. So do appliance servicers. And car servicers.

I was a TV/Audio servicer for a handful of years but the several shops I worked for were honest. We never inflated billing. I've always fixed my own appliances.

In OKC I busted a dishonest HVAC guy to my landlord who of course was paying for it. She fired the shop and lowered my rent.

I've never been ripped by a car garage but I know several who have. One such was ripping the manufacturer (Volkswagen) for repairs to my new car. Took them TWELVE billings to fix THREE problems. That dealer lost its franchise soon after. Their association with Buick was also lost. They were simply crooks and not very good at it.

 

[lordkenmore]

I am reminded of the guy who serviced my grandmother's furnace. In the 1990s, it seems that I heard that he took the "you must replace this old thing!" line. Even a line about "before next winter!" Perhaps he had some good reason (i.e. seeing something serious going wrong), but not long after that incident I questioned his pressure when I heard about a friend of my grandmother's who was getting the same lecture... Perhaps both furnaces were seriously ailing, but again perhaps this was just a standard line about any old furnace. Perhaps even one that was made in the 1960s, never used, stored in perfect conditions, and then installed two days before he saw it...

I can't say for sure now, but I think one argument that was used with my grandmother was the "reliability" argument. (Although this may have been on some other issue: one of my uncles could put pressure on her to replace stuff for the safety of having better reliability argument.) As I think of that now, I see that as being a huge sales point argument. But what interestingly never gets mentioned in those arguments are that the new furnace will sooner or later be in the same position the old one is in. Someone who replaced their furnace when my grandmother was getting lectured would right about now (I'm betting) be hearing: "It's 20 years old! Better get rid of it before it gets rid of you and your house!"

The other point that never seems to get mentioned is that even with something built with top standards, things can go wrong when the product is fairly new. All it takes is one bad solder joint that isn't caught at the factory...

 

[lordkenmore]

>I've never been ripped by a car garage but I know several who have.

My favorite story was told to me by a tow truck driver. He took his pickup in for service at a-then local dealer to handle some recall work. The work was done, and he was given a long list of things they saw that needed fixing. Unknown to the dealer, however, he had driven the truck long and hard enough that all that work they suggested had been done recently enough that it wasn't necessary. When he pointed this out, they took a "Oh! We got your truck mixed up with someone else's!" line.

 

[warmsecondrinse]

Buried oil tanks

I should have explained that this was in the mid to late 90's so the decision might be different today. however, at the time I did a good bit of research on-line as to replacement of in-ground oil tanks. As I recall there were a lot of variables involved to determine as to whether it was safer to leave it be or take it out. I remember thinking it was it was rather like asbestos in that there were a number of criteria weighed to determine whether the best course of action was removal, encapsulation, or just leaving the asbestos as is.

The details are rather vague now but according to every criteria set I found, the 'best' course of action was to do nothing and continue to use the tank.

What bothered me at the time was not so much the idea of replacement itself, but rather the fact that NOTHING seemed to precipitate this supposed need to replace it and the boiler and NOBODY was able to explain to me why this 'need' was so urgent. Also, NOBODY was able to explain how/why the boiler needed to be replaced as a result of the oil tank being replaced... it simply did, supposedly.

I didn't buy any of it and made that clear. everyone just rolled their eyes and chalked it up as another example of me being a 'problem'.

I pointed out that there were several downsides to replacing the boiler as a result of there being a good deal less waste heat given off by the new one:

1. Basement would be much colder as would the floors of the first floor, requiring the thermostat to be set higher.
2. Pipes would be more likely to freeze.
3. The kitchen, den, and back hall would be significantly colder as they were right above the boiler and there was only one radiator that would now be too small to cover that area.
4. Laundry hung up in the basement would take much longer to dry.
5. As a result of the oil tank now being only 250 gallons, my grandparents would lose their rather large discount for buying over 500 (750?) gallons of oil at a time. and, oh, had anyone incorporated the increased cost of fuel oil into the 'savings'?

I got eyerolls from all but my grandparents. And there were chuckles at how I was pretending to be a heating expert.

Laws of physics and oil companies' pricing structures both exist OUTSIDE of my head so #'s 1-5 all came to pass. Yes, I thoroughly enjoyed the multiple opportunities to say, "I told you so."

Sadly, both grandparents are gone now and the house was razed to put up condos...

Jim

 

[wayupnorth]

Fortunately, where I get my oil, gives their big discount for 400+ gallons. Had my tanks filled the end of September and then the price went down. I have (2) 330 gallon tanks in a seperate room in my basement, but this year I am using way too much with this brutal cold weather and as usual, another snowstorm for the weekend. I will have well over 500 gallons put in there in the fall.[this post was last edited: 3/12/2015-21:55]

 

[norgeway]

Re buried tanks..

In my hometown there is a house that was owned by the manager of a Esso service station, it had in addition to a big Esso furnace about twice the size needed..a 10 000 gallon tank buried in the bback yard, one of the big industrial ones like used at a service station!!...I guess its still there.He got a big discount on oil back in the 50s when he built that house,so I guess he thought one fill up every 15 to 20 years was a good idea..LOL!!!!

 

[lordkenmore]

As for buried tanks...

The house I grew up in had some. When my family sold the house in the early 1990s, those tanks were a concern brought up by the real estate agents who listed the house. There was (at least at that time) no state regulations, but it was an area of concern with mortgage companies IIRC. I said the tanks were empty, and the real estate agents said that empty was probably a bigger problem than if they had been in use--more likelihood of the tank rusting, and whatever residual oil remaining could possibly leak out. They painted an ugly picture of the cost of taking the tanks out, particularly if there was any oil leakage. IIRC it involved hauling soil down to a special disposal place in Oregon. (The house was located in the Seattle area.) Fortunately, the buyer's mortgage company was satisfied with an inspection. The inspector was (IIRC) someone the buyer knew, and gave just a fast look at both one tank, and also an oil furnace that was out of service. The buyer did not mention the second unused oil furnace in that house, nor the fact that there was at least one more known oil tanks. By the time my family moved out, 2 more buried oil tanks had been found, for a total of 4 tanks. One wonders about 4 tanks for 25 years or so of oil heat. Perhaps someone about 1960 was a survivalist of some sort.

 

[lordkenmore]

>a 10 000 gallon tank buried in the bback yard

Reminds me of a high school teacher. He had a buried oil tank, and had apparently taken the approach of "put in x gallons of oil" each year. One year (IIRC oil prices took a huge drop) he decided to fill up. He said he got a call at school from the oil company. They said they had gone to fill the tank. They put x gallons in, and the trunk was empty, so they'd be back to finish the job... My teacher quickly said: "Don't bother! There is enough as it is!"