Home Heating Systems.

[hoover1100]

Gas here

1 bed small ground floor flat, we have a hot water condensing combi (on demand) boiler in our kitchen, which heats all 3 radiators in the flat, unfortunately it's been out of action since last Friday and due to lack of funds and work commitments won't be fixed until next Wednesday at the earliest. With the washer, dishwasher and shower all having their own electric heaters, and a 4 bar halogen heater in the living room and electric blanket in the bedroom, we haven't done too badly without it.

The building was built in 1955 by the local council, and originally all the flats and houses in this area would have had back boilers behind a gas fire in the living room, which would have provided hot water. Many homes in our area still have this system. The fire does not have to be lit for the boiler to work, but it did in older solid fuel systems, of which a couple of friends of mine still have!

In the larger houses the back boiler would have often heated water for radiators in other rooms in the house, but in a small flat like this the only heat source was probably the gas fire in the living room, portable heaters may have been used in the bedrooms and perhaps wall mounted heaters in the bathrooms but no doubt in many cases these rooms would have been left completely unheated. I can assure you this is not a pleasant experience as it is what we have had for the last week-10 days. I can only imagine with the original single glazed, un-draught proofed, steel framed crittal windows it would have been colder still!

When the boiler is working we don't acutally heat the place much, it's comfortable at around 16c (60f) in the living room and lower in the bedroom, and we only have the heating running for a few hours on particularly chilly evenings during the winter months.

Matt

 

[jerrod6]

Matt.   I have visited the UK but don't have any real experience living there so I hope you don't mind a few questions.

 

What is a condensing combi?  Is this something that heats the house and your hot water for use?

Why is it condensing does this mean there is no chimney?

 

Can you describe how the back boiler  works and how it is behind a fire in the living room?

If the fire is not lit how does the boiler heat water?

 

 

 

[drmitch]

We moved from a 4600sq ft victorian where we suffered the winter months and sweltered in the summer to a 1200sq ft 1940s cottage with a split gas unit and I`m loving it. Bills are very comfortable and the house is too. I have been adding insulation and new storm windows and doors. We love old houses so we reglaze and weatherstrip the original windows to make them more efficent and keep the character of the home. I hope everyone can stay warm this winter!

 

[countryguy]

Up until 2 years ago, the primary source of heat in my house was electric baseboard heaters along with a wood stove. With the rising cost of electricity and the fact that I was tired of hauling and splitting wood and the resulting mess, I had a hot water heating system installed fueled by propane since natural gas is not available where I live. I would have preferred to put in a forced air system (about 1/2 the cost) so that I could also have real central air but unfortunately there was just no way to do it with the way the house was built, location of the utility room, etc.

Gary

 

[coldspot]

I have electric forced air heat. Hate it dry as heck in this place. But it is cheaper then gas here witch is a shocker. My electric bill in the winter heat set to 70F runs about 69.00 to 89.00 dollars. Bad thing vents on on the upper part of wall so that sucks. We all know warm air raises. True that the ceiling is hot and the ground is like ice.

I just am not that big of a fan of electric heat. Growing up we had Gas floor furnace. Also a gas wall heater with fan. Loved that thing cold feet lay on floor and put feet on it after it turned off.

 

[richardc1983]

jerrod6

Answer to your questions:

Some links re condensing boilers:

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condensing_boiler

2. http://www.condensingboiler.org.uk/

Back boilers have the boiler behind the fire place as many homes used to have a coil fired boiler that would be behind the fire place and would heat the central heating system when the fire was lit. When coal fires were phased out gas fired back boilers were the replacement. You would have your independant gas fire at the front and then the gas fired boiler behind the fire place in the same space that the old coal fired boiler occupied.

A condensing boiler will provide heating and hot water as does a back boiler however a condensing boiler will provide instantaneous hot water to your taps etc whereas a back boiler will circulate the water flow from the radiators through a coil of pipe in the hot water cylinder which in turn heats the water within the cylinder to give you hot water to your taps. Its a much slower process to heat up and in the summer months if you want hot water only a diverter valve will divert the flow that would normally pass through the radiators and send it to the coil inside the cylinder. However in my own experience it is usually quicker to put the immersion heater on for 15 minutes. My parents still have this setup and have been told that they should keep it maintainted as the back boiler they have is in good working order and for them to go onto a condensing boiler that may possibly fail after 2 years. Their baxi back boiler is 15 years old!

http://www.baxi.co.uk/products/back-boilers.htm

Many new builds or boiler replacements people will remove the hot water cylinder as this is not required for a condensing boiler installation due to the nature of how it heats the water.

Hope that helps a little.

 

[dj-gabriele]

My two situations:

1- Here in Bologna we have gas fired centralized heating for all the condo (120 flats) with underfloor coils, the temperature is set at 20-21°C from the first of october to the first of may, non stop. This cost 2400 euros per year. No attention required, we don't even have a thermostat, the temperature is kept constant by varying water flow and temperature automatically.

2- At my parents we have a condensing combi-boiler installed in 2001 rated at 21kW, the efficiency is around 105% of the LHV, impressive isn't it?
It both provides hot water at 55°C (currently set at 12 litres/minute plus an integrated storage of 60 litres used for the water circulator to have instant hot water, activated by the light switch in the bathroom and an additional switch in the kitchen) and space heating via radiators with the water temperature automatically set by an outside temperature sensor. Indoor heating is kept at 18,5°C.
The annual expense is around 1000 euros for 8 hours of heating a day + hot water (in summer we use solar collectors) from late october/early november to mid-april.

Now a personal question, I wish you can answer!
It seems that American installations are way less refined than those put in operation in Italy, I wonder why is that. Over here all the pipes are laid down in the walls (even in retrofitting) and are all wrapped in insulation on an incombustible surface, as an example the wood board would to which all the stuff is connected in the last photo would be illegal over here! And malpractice in all the other cases, also flexible plastic piping is not used for permanent connection and copper or pvc are the materials of choice.

I'm not saying that it's not good but I'm just wondering how one can tolerate such intricate systems for something that easily can be made invisible.

 

[mistereric]

1952 Built single story slab here in Central NJ. Its a Gunnison MagicHome (Champion Size 1) model with a small addition on the back.

House was a short sale and came with a newly installed Goodman unit, most likely a replacement for the original furnace.

Not the best heating. All the ductwork is up high, since its a slab. Its better than the alternative, which would have been under slab ducts. Works wonderfully for AC tho, which I installed in 2009.

The blower is incredibly strong and I've got it turned down to the lowest setting. Its noisy and there are relays that make a lot of racket, just like the one in John's place.

If the unit wasn't relatively new I would consider replacing it with something else. Would love to leave the ductwork in for AC and run hydronic lines for a hot-water system but there is so little space in the laundry room as it is!

For a thermostat, I'm using a 3M internet connected unit from Home Depot. I have a program set and can modify it from the internet or my iPhone. Love it!

Picture from just after I bought the place, when i was repairing the floor in the laundry room after a broken pipe.

 

[toggleswitch]

NYC heating requirements for landlord who supply heat.
(Read: nearly ALL)

Basically, no heat required from 10pm to 6am.
This allowed the boiler-man (guy shoveling coal) to sleep.

Long Island requires 65*F at night minimum.
(Read: Never a reprieve from wasteful uncomfortable over-heating)



http://www.nyc.gov/html/hpd/html/tenants/heat-and-hot-water.shtml

 

[launderess]

I Wouldn't Say "No" Heat At Night

Just quite reduced. *LOL*

Fify-five indoor temp should be maintained with the boiler firing up steam or hot water only a few times per hour or so if that. This obviously would depend on how well insulated the building is and the windows.

Can always tell when it's "morning" because that is when the boilers kick into high gear.

 

[mattl]

As I have posted before, I am totally happy with my variable speed, variable output gas forced air system.  I have it set to run 24/7 at low speed, there are no hot or cold spots in the house, just comfortable, even heat.  I am not aware when the burner kicks in as the burner operates at low volume at most outdoor temps.  On very cold, sub 0 days it may kick in the higher output burner, but it's rare.  I use an Aprilaire humidifier with an outdoor sensor that automatically adjust s the humidity to the outdoor temp, I keep it about 50%, and it's very comfortable.

 

i can't think of a better system at this point.  I see drawback with other systems, steam has no cooling capability, big issue for me.  I'd love a geothermal version of what I have but I'm sure the cost is very much more that what i paid a few years back.

 

[jaxsunst]

I live on the 3rd(top) floor of an apartment built in 1997. Since I'm on the top floor, I have 12 ft vaults in the living room and the sunroom, the rest are 9' ceilings. It's 2bed, 2bath, 1310 sqft.

Moved in on June 1st, the A/C had a hard time keeping up. But, the heat is some wierd system that runs off the gas water heater. It's a forced air, central system. I have a Hunter programmable thermostat. I keep it set for 68 in the hours I'm there and it turns itself down to 65 at night and during the workday. I supplement with the fireplace (wood burning). My A/C bills were around $200, but since I've been using the heat, it has dropped to $90. In Memphis, Gas, Electric and water come in one bill.

 

[arbilab]

FIFTY FIVE?? My fingers start going numb at 69. I'm total electric and my heating costs are double my cooling costs. Winter setpoint, 72F. Summer setpoint, 82F. Summer and winter were comparable when I had gas heat.

I hate weather. It's expensive.

 

[kimball455]

Limited space install

In my circa 1860 house there is little to no room for anything including a heating system. As shown in the picture in about a 2 1/2 ft x 3 1/2 ft area the boiler, pumps and controls were installed in the corner of the kitchen. The boiler hangs on the wall. This picture was taken during the remodel. The system is 3 zone hot water baseboard and also supplies DHW via an indirect fired tank. This system keeps all of the house is nice and comfortable with very stable temperatures. This system replaced an extremely inefficient and old floor furnace. The system makes about as much noise as a quiet refrigerator. It is a modulating condensing gas boiler with efficiently of 98%. A/C is Sanyo mini splits giving me 4 zones.

 

[rayjay]

Two Heating Systems

Hi.
I have a split level house which is hard to heat and cool because of the design and open stair cases. I have gas forced hot air. There are 4 levels in the house with the lowest level being the Utlity Room and garage.
The entry level , foyer, den and 2 family rooms were always cool. I had an electric base board heater to supplement, but that was not always the greatest.

In the summer, the bedrooms whichwere on the top level were hard to cool and the foyer and family rooms were freezing. I had to shut the registers off.

A friend of mine does heating and cooling and got tired of hearing me complain. My A/C unit was 23 years old still working, but I thought it should be replaced.

My friend gave me a price for running all new duct work throught the both attics for the central air through the ceiling. We had to go through closets for the den and family rooms, but it was so worth it. The house cools down much quicker with the A/C coming throught the ceiling.

THen.....for the den foyer and family rooms, he installed a Teledyne Laars small boiler in the utility room and I have hot water baseboard heat with its own thermostat on the entry level. I cannot tell you how happy I am with this heat. I do not have to run the forced air system so hi to keep the family rooms warm. WHen we are donw there in the evening, I crank it up to 72 or 73. Really nice.

Running A/C through your current forced air system is not efficient, since you are blowing cold air for the register in the wall which is near the floor and heat rises, so it takes that much longer to cool the room. But...heating contractors want to sell you A/C your current forced air system, because it is less expensive, and a lot of them do not want to do the work.

Hopefully, down the road when my current forced air heating system breaks, I am considering installing hot water baseboard in the middle and upper levels of my home. It is just so much warmer, I always HATED forced hot air heat.

Thanks for letting me rant. lol

Ray

 

[hydralique]

dj-gabriele:

Regarding your comments about Countryguy’s heating system: From the looks of the photo, his installation is in a partial basement. The room is clearly of unfinished CMU (concrete block) with a concrete floor and floor joists above for the first floor. Sawing through the CMU and internal reinforcing steel to mount insulated pipes in the wall would not be allowed without an engineering analysis and as an architect I’m sure that most structural engineers wouldn’t allow it. A chase could be constructed to conceal the pipes but in a utility area such as a basement that isn’t necessary and would simply add expense and complexity.

 

Regarding mounting components on a wood board, in general mechanical equipment is to be installed according to the manufacturer’s recommendations. These are based on testing which is certified by a testing institute such as UL (Underwriter’s Laboratory). Cities will usually not allow installation of equipment that isn’t certified. In this case I notice that the wood has been kept away from the heater’s flue where it goes through the wall and the piping is held away from the wall on brackets, so I can assume that the piping is rated for installation on wood providing that proper brackets are used, but the flue must have greater clearance.

 

In my own practice I don’t deal much with HVAC systems aside from providing enough room for ducting and locating registers, but I do frequently specify manufactured fireplaces as in my city it is very difficult to use a site built masonry fireplace due to seismic considerations. When I specify a particular fireplace on the plans I must also list the certification numbers provided from the manufacturer. The planchecker at the Dept. Of Building and Safety will check the numbers when the plans are approved for a building permit. During construction, the inspector will make sure the fireplace and chimney system are being installed according to the manufacturer’s recommendations, which in the case of a fireplace usually means anywhere from 0 to 2" of clearance from combustibles to the outside casing of the fireplace, and no less than 2" from the chimney flue to combustibles. I can’t say from the photo whether or not Countryguy’s heater installation is actually code-compliant but it certainly looks to be neat and professional work, and I wouldn’t jump to any conclusions that it is "malpractice" without a lot more information.

 

[mattl]

"<a name="start_37802.562953">FIFTY FIVE?? My fingers start going numb at 69"</a>

 

I keep the heat at 63 during the day and in the evening it basically goes off.  I have it set to 45 at 9 PM and back to 61 at 8:30 AM.  then later in the afternoon it climbs to 63.  Last winter I don't recall the house getting colder that 50 even on the coldest days.  After a few weeks you get used to it, don't even mind getting out of a hot shower into 50 degree air.  I use a few blankets and a heated mattress pad during the winter and sleep very well.

 

[lordkenmore]

FIFTY FIVE?? My fingers start going numb at 69

I roll my thermostat way back at night. I started doing this a long time ago. Not just for energy savings, but there were safety issues with the furnace. The sequencer needed to be changed. It had the charming habit of sometimes not shutting one element down when the rest of the furnace shut down. That was not something I wanted happening when I was around to keep an eye on the furnace, so, until I could get the furnace fixed, I turned the heat completely off. Until that time, I'd always seen setbacks as being "a few degrees." But I was surprised to find that I could actually sleep with drastically lowered temperatures--at least once I'd piled a ton of blankets on the bed.

I also sometimes do huge setbacks when I'm up. If I'm on the couch reading or watching a DVD, and planning to stay there a long time, I figure I might as well just wrap myself up with a blanket, and lower the heat.

It'll be interesting to see what habits I continue "someday" when I live someplace easier and cheaper to heat.

 

[jerrod6]

Night time Set back - not so much

I have a programmable thermostat but my experience in my house is that if you set it back too much the heater runs frequently in the early-mid morning to increase the temperature.  Even then the walls, and furniture just never feel comfortable, so now I only set the temperature back to 65F at 10PM , and during the day from 6am I am keeping it 67F.  So far with the outdoor temp between 43F day and 31F night  I am using 3 hundred cubic feet of gas per day(this includes gas dryer, tankless water heater and range).  In January and February  when the temps are colder I will use between 4 and 5 hundred cubic feet per day.  I pay about  $1.52 per hundred cubic feet and the billing cycle is between 28 and 33 days. 

 

Last year during the day I tried keeping it at 66F but I just can't take that.  I ended up having to wear gloves in the house and even now I wear 4 or 5 shirts, one being thermal underwear and the outer  shirt being fleece, and I wear fleece pants while in the house.

 

Great that NYC requires owners to supply heat.  Not so here.  Many times each apartment/condo or flat will have their own heater/Ac and the tenant pays that bill--you want heat?---You pay for it.

 

Countryguy:  What is delivering your heat, I see the pipes so this looks like hot water but do you have radiators or something else conducting the heat to the rooms?

 

Richard1983:  I just didn't know a lot about how those systems work.  I appreciate your information and links.

 

 

 

[arbilab]

don't even mind getting out of a hot shower into 50 degree air
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

You're much stouter than I am. About 30F stouter.