Horrible Apartment Bulidng Fire In UK and Exploding Refrigerators.
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vacerator
Well-known member
Ah Yes! Ballymun,
near the Dublin airport. Looks very different today, as does Divis in Belfast, where only the tower stands as senior apartments now. Oh, the "troubles".
The Divis flats were meant to improve life for poor and lower working class, but within 5 years were worse than the old back to back slum terraces it replaced.
near the Dublin airport. Looks very different today, as does Divis in Belfast, where only the tower stands as senior apartments now. Oh, the "troubles".
The Divis flats were meant to improve life for poor and lower working class, but within 5 years were worse than the old back to back slum terraces it replaced.
I've been following the Grenfell Tower fire fairly closely, partially for professional interest.
A few things I've learned about the fire and it's rapid spread (and have opinions about):
1. It sounds like a lot of European refrigerators have flammable plastic backs rather than it being a problem of flammable gas per se.
2. The Cladding, the cladding and the cladding (or it's the cladding stupid). It was obviously flammable (and isn't allowed on the continent or in the US above 40 feet iirc) and improperly installed. There were also likely no firebreaks as specified within the installation. This was seen in Australia as well on a fire started on the exterior of a high-rise by an errant cigarette.
3. It sounds like much of the refurbishment was shoddy - poorly installed doors and rubbish in the stairs and corridors. This was an ongoing issue - I knew about this several years ago (it wasn't an exceptional building, downright ugly in fact, compared to a lot of other iconic buildings nearby) and it was no secret that the residents were angry.
4. It hasn't been made clear yet, but as there was gas service to the individual units, was it shut off when the firemen arrived (have seen no sign of this)?
5. I also suspect that there was a lot of flammable materials in the recent construction - I'd always thought that the UK was strict about that in construction, but I think they got both cheap and complacent with standards, although they are also at the forefront of improvements in fire safety in some construction scenarios. Since it appears that pretty much all the buildings that have been reclad have failed, it's a systematic national problem in the UK with construction, not just social housing or tall buildings - I've seen a lot of cheap construction for market rate buildings too - lots of plastics, etc.
6. In and of itself the single stairway isn't a problem, though probably undersized for exiting/egress (or evacuating the entire building at once). In this case it sounds like doors were propped and ill-fitting and the ventilation incorrectly designed or modified (and of course, people were evacuating via elevator - some died this way! - as someone who lives and works in elevator buildings, I know to avoid the elevator in fires).
7. I think lack of fire alarms and central smoke/fire detection system was the biggest problem - people would have gotten out quicker had they known right away rather than waiting. With the high density of residents and single stair there should have been sprinklers in the common corridors and stairs, though this could have been compromised by the insane spread lower down in the building (and a lot of the deaths probably were inhalation which stopped people from getting out - sprinklers might not have helped).
Anyways, rant over, I hope I gave at least **some** insight.
A few things I've learned about the fire and it's rapid spread (and have opinions about):
1. It sounds like a lot of European refrigerators have flammable plastic backs rather than it being a problem of flammable gas per se.
2. The Cladding, the cladding and the cladding (or it's the cladding stupid). It was obviously flammable (and isn't allowed on the continent or in the US above 40 feet iirc) and improperly installed. There were also likely no firebreaks as specified within the installation. This was seen in Australia as well on a fire started on the exterior of a high-rise by an errant cigarette.
3. It sounds like much of the refurbishment was shoddy - poorly installed doors and rubbish in the stairs and corridors. This was an ongoing issue - I knew about this several years ago (it wasn't an exceptional building, downright ugly in fact, compared to a lot of other iconic buildings nearby) and it was no secret that the residents were angry.
4. It hasn't been made clear yet, but as there was gas service to the individual units, was it shut off when the firemen arrived (have seen no sign of this)?
5. I also suspect that there was a lot of flammable materials in the recent construction - I'd always thought that the UK was strict about that in construction, but I think they got both cheap and complacent with standards, although they are also at the forefront of improvements in fire safety in some construction scenarios. Since it appears that pretty much all the buildings that have been reclad have failed, it's a systematic national problem in the UK with construction, not just social housing or tall buildings - I've seen a lot of cheap construction for market rate buildings too - lots of plastics, etc.
6. In and of itself the single stairway isn't a problem, though probably undersized for exiting/egress (or evacuating the entire building at once). In this case it sounds like doors were propped and ill-fitting and the ventilation incorrectly designed or modified (and of course, people were evacuating via elevator - some died this way! - as someone who lives and works in elevator buildings, I know to avoid the elevator in fires).
7. I think lack of fire alarms and central smoke/fire detection system was the biggest problem - people would have gotten out quicker had they known right away rather than waiting. With the high density of residents and single stair there should have been sprinklers in the common corridors and stairs, though this could have been compromised by the insane spread lower down in the building (and a lot of the deaths probably were inhalation which stopped people from getting out - sprinklers might not have helped).
Anyways, rant over, I hope I gave at least **some** insight.
rolls_rapide
Well-known member
European refrigerators have flammable plastic backs
They do.
London Fire Brigade has a video which compares a UK model to an American fridge. The US model had a metal back plate and thus reduces the fire blaze.
The UK model went up like Roman Candle within one minute, due to the plastic.
Linked, below. Scroll down the link for the video of fridge comparison.
But remember too that the gas in the compressor is flammable. The same kind of gases found in camping stoves, portable gas fires and cigarette lighters. One of the newspaper reports in another tragic fire (Reply #6) said it was like a Bunsen burner.
Put the two together (plastic and flammable gas), and well, you're asking for trouble. That should not be allowed to happen.
They do.
London Fire Brigade has a video which compares a UK model to an American fridge. The US model had a metal back plate and thus reduces the fire blaze.
The UK model went up like Roman Candle within one minute, due to the plastic.
Linked, below. Scroll down the link for the video of fridge comparison.
But remember too that the gas in the compressor is flammable. The same kind of gases found in camping stoves, portable gas fires and cigarette lighters. One of the newspaper reports in another tragic fire (Reply #6) said it was like a Bunsen burner.
Put the two together (plastic and flammable gas), and well, you're asking for trouble. That should not be allowed to happen.
vacerator
Well-known member
I'm very surprised
that building codes, or major appliance specs are so antiquated in the UK or EU.
I know many are sourced from Beko, a Turkish company, and Turkey isn't second or third world either.
Germany is really the surprise because they take such pride in their products and most are masterpieces in quality.
Gaggenau, Miele, Bosch, Porsche, Audi, BMW, Benz, etc.
that building codes, or major appliance specs are so antiquated in the UK or EU.
I know many are sourced from Beko, a Turkish company, and Turkey isn't second or third world either.
Germany is really the surprise because they take such pride in their products and most are masterpieces in quality.
Gaggenau, Miele, Bosch, Porsche, Audi, BMW, Benz, etc.
I think the European regulations on fridges need to be reviewed.
There's been too much reliance on industries to self regulate and be sensible and a move away from heavy state sponsored lab testing and towards self declaration of conformity with standards. This was all a very Oro business move that only appeared in the 1990s really.
Also with regards to UK building regulations, they're all great on paper but they're very loosely inspected and there's a long history of self regulation of trades and so on.
I wouldn't be quite as surprised as you. The UK and Ireland have far, far less regulated construction and access to trades than most of the USA. A lot of regulation is assumed to work because it's assumed that people will just follow the code and a lot of professions and trades are almost entirely self regulated rather than licenced. There are inspections but they're not anything like as aggressive or as frequent as the many parts of the US.
Even electrical work was largely just self regulated until EU rules began to require proper licencing of those trades and that was transposed into local law.
It's hard to generalize about Europe because you've 28 EU members and then others and all of them approach building regulations quite differently in terms of enforcement and licencing.
There's been too much reliance on industries to self regulate and be sensible and a move away from heavy state sponsored lab testing and towards self declaration of conformity with standards. This was all a very Oro business move that only appeared in the 1990s really.
Also with regards to UK building regulations, they're all great on paper but they're very loosely inspected and there's a long history of self regulation of trades and so on.
I wouldn't be quite as surprised as you. The UK and Ireland have far, far less regulated construction and access to trades than most of the USA. A lot of regulation is assumed to work because it's assumed that people will just follow the code and a lot of professions and trades are almost entirely self regulated rather than licenced. There are inspections but they're not anything like as aggressive or as frequent as the many parts of the US.
Even electrical work was largely just self regulated until EU rules began to require proper licencing of those trades and that was transposed into local law.
It's hard to generalize about Europe because you've 28 EU members and then others and all of them approach building regulations quite differently in terms of enforcement and licencing.
mikejonson7501
New member
it was horrible, I was so disappointed
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rolls_rapide
Well-known member
Appliance safety
I am not convinced that the "CE" mark denotes any quality whatsoever.
I think we had much better quality when appliances were BEAB approved, and products - of all types - conformed to British Standards.
Look at the carry on with Bosch dishwashers. From what I read, the reason for the control panel printed circuit board catching fire, was because of underrated components being unable to withstand British over-voltage.
We need testing to be brought back in-house, and not to rely on other countries 'testing' the product in question. I just doesn't work.
I am not convinced that the "CE" mark denotes any quality whatsoever.
I think we had much better quality when appliances were BEAB approved, and products - of all types - conformed to British Standards.
Look at the carry on with Bosch dishwashers. From what I read, the reason for the control panel printed circuit board catching fire, was because of underrated components being unable to withstand British over-voltage.
We need testing to be brought back in-house, and not to rely on other countries 'testing' the product in question. I just doesn't work.
rolls_rapide
Well-known member
That was supposed to read...
"It just doesn't work."
"It just doesn't work."
Other countries testing would be absolutely fine.
The problem is CE is ****self-declaration**** and only really spot checked.
I think we need to move towards am independent lab tested version of CE.
The current regime places a hell of a lot of trust in manufacturers to do the right thing.
The issue with fridge standards needs to be dealt with by European Directive to force the fire retardant standards way up.
It's likely that fridge was in full compliance with existing regulations.
The problem is CE is ****self-declaration**** and only really spot checked.
I think we need to move towards am independent lab tested version of CE.
The current regime places a hell of a lot of trust in manufacturers to do the right thing.
The issue with fridge standards needs to be dealt with by European Directive to force the fire retardant standards way up.
It's likely that fridge was in full compliance with existing regulations.
How does an refrigerator "explode"?
It doesn't. Thats the terminology the media uses which is incorrect. Much like every time power lines down and arc the media mistakenly calls it a "transformer explosion" Absolutely has nothing to do with a failing transformer and nothing is exploding. Same with a car that caught fire around me, the local media mistakenly reporting a "a car exploded going ablaze earlier this morning" People literally thought a bomb had exploded before the thing was a blaze.
This is exactly why our president frequently calls out the media so frequently. By lot and far just about everything the media reports is in some way shape or form obfuscated, erroneous, misrepresented or just plain untrue. Just about every expert in his field will tell you when the media does a report in his area of understanding its often inaccurate to some degree or another.
Major media outlets seek to generate revenue, and that often involves sensationalism. Reporters and journalists are not experts in the fields they are investigating or reporting on; and there is no system of accountability to make sure their work is accurate or truthful. Most are employed by networks seeking to push political agendas with heavy bias, and media outlets will often make up sources to remain interesting or relevant. I know most of you will think I am describing the coverage of big political stories, but this mod of operation stretches to everything from covering wars to weather reporting. None of it should be taken seriously, its extremely dangerous when you do.
It doesn't. Thats the terminology the media uses which is incorrect. Much like every time power lines down and arc the media mistakenly calls it a "transformer explosion" Absolutely has nothing to do with a failing transformer and nothing is exploding. Same with a car that caught fire around me, the local media mistakenly reporting a "a car exploded going ablaze earlier this morning" People literally thought a bomb had exploded before the thing was a blaze.
This is exactly why our president frequently calls out the media so frequently. By lot and far just about everything the media reports is in some way shape or form obfuscated, erroneous, misrepresented or just plain untrue. Just about every expert in his field will tell you when the media does a report in his area of understanding its often inaccurate to some degree or another.
Major media outlets seek to generate revenue, and that often involves sensationalism. Reporters and journalists are not experts in the fields they are investigating or reporting on; and there is no system of accountability to make sure their work is accurate or truthful. Most are employed by networks seeking to push political agendas with heavy bias, and media outlets will often make up sources to remain interesting or relevant. I know most of you will think I am describing the coverage of big political stories, but this mod of operation stretches to everything from covering wars to weather reporting. None of it should be taken seriously, its extremely dangerous when you do.
rolls_rapide
Well-known member
How does an refrigerator "explode"?
They do.
Look at the newspaper reports linked above, then you'll see.
www.telegraph.co.uk
They do.
Look at the newspaper reports linked above, then you'll see.
Exploding fridge wrecks woman's house
A woman has told of her terror after her fridge exploded, leaving her house looking like a bomb site.
www.telegraph.co.uk
arbilab
Well-known member
"None of it should be taken seriously"
See how easy it is to go wrong? Even without meaning to.
Transformers DO explode. The industry term is 'fault'. Consists of high to very high potentials escaping from where they belong, exceeding the trip rating of the switchgear feeding them, accompanied by an immense amount of heat inside a sealed container, breaching said container. In other words, exploding.
I've seen it happen. So have a crew of hapless firemen helplessly watching it burn for hours. As though prescient, I awoke at 3AM just in time to hear a huge EXPLOSION a mile away, and the LED clock went dark. Only one thing within a mile of my house to explode. I drove to the substation and sure enough, 138kV transformer with 30-foot flames where the top used to be.
Here's where you're right: Media covering a tornado, video of purple plasma on the horizon, voiceover says "transformer exploding". It's typically not. The industry calls that "faulting" too. And there is a rapid expansion of heated gas (atmosphere) making a sound akin to thunder but with a 120Hz component thrown in.
Here's why they say that: They have to call it something their audience (of dummies) can relate to and they settled on 'transf explod'g'.
Here's where you're also right: EVERY time I hear media reporting on something *I* know in some depth, they misspeak to some extent and sometimes a great extent. But to the bulk audience, the distinction is immaterial as it wouldn't understand the 'correct' terminology anyway, much less the physics. Worse, from media's perspective, the audience would actually tune away because their ignorance was being exposed. And if there's anything stupid people don't like it's their stupidity exposed.
Which ironically is the root cause of the stupidity plague. Media being caught in that loop. It wouldn't pay them to be dead on balls accurate. (It's an industry term. My Cousin Vinny.)
"The cockpit? What is it? It's the little room at the front of the plane where the pilots sit, but that's not important right now."
See how easy it is to go wrong? Even without meaning to.
Transformers DO explode. The industry term is 'fault'. Consists of high to very high potentials escaping from where they belong, exceeding the trip rating of the switchgear feeding them, accompanied by an immense amount of heat inside a sealed container, breaching said container. In other words, exploding.
I've seen it happen. So have a crew of hapless firemen helplessly watching it burn for hours. As though prescient, I awoke at 3AM just in time to hear a huge EXPLOSION a mile away, and the LED clock went dark. Only one thing within a mile of my house to explode. I drove to the substation and sure enough, 138kV transformer with 30-foot flames where the top used to be.
Here's where you're right: Media covering a tornado, video of purple plasma on the horizon, voiceover says "transformer exploding". It's typically not. The industry calls that "faulting" too. And there is a rapid expansion of heated gas (atmosphere) making a sound akin to thunder but with a 120Hz component thrown in.
Here's why they say that: They have to call it something their audience (of dummies) can relate to and they settled on 'transf explod'g'.
Here's where you're also right: EVERY time I hear media reporting on something *I* know in some depth, they misspeak to some extent and sometimes a great extent. But to the bulk audience, the distinction is immaterial as it wouldn't understand the 'correct' terminology anyway, much less the physics. Worse, from media's perspective, the audience would actually tune away because their ignorance was being exposed. And if there's anything stupid people don't like it's their stupidity exposed.
Which ironically is the root cause of the stupidity plague. Media being caught in that loop. It wouldn't pay them to be dead on balls accurate. (It's an industry term. My Cousin Vinny.)
"The cockpit? What is it? It's the little room at the front of the plane where the pilots sit, but that's not important right now."
Exploding Refrigerators
As I mentioned in my earlier post many if not nearly all newer refs in much of the world use Butane refrigerant which is highly flammable and if a leak develops inside the ref from say a leaking evaporator [ leaking evaporators are by far the common source of sealed system leaks ] and then the control kicks on and the spark from the contact in the thromostat or relay if the ref has an electronic control and BOOM.
This could also happen with tragic consequences when you open the door and the spark from the light switch sets off an explosion.
[ Imagine being on a diet and sneaking down to the ref in the middle of the night to score some ice cream and having the ref blow up when you open the door, LOL ]
I would like to hear from you guys in other countries about how common the use of flammable butane is in refs where you live.
John L.
As I mentioned in my earlier post many if not nearly all newer refs in much of the world use Butane refrigerant which is highly flammable and if a leak develops inside the ref from say a leaking evaporator [ leaking evaporators are by far the common source of sealed system leaks ] and then the control kicks on and the spark from the contact in the thromostat or relay if the ref has an electronic control and BOOM.
This could also happen with tragic consequences when you open the door and the spark from the light switch sets off an explosion.
[ Imagine being on a diet and sneaking down to the ref in the middle of the night to score some ice cream and having the ref blow up when you open the door, LOL ]
I would like to hear from you guys in other countries about how common the use of flammable butane is in refs where you live.
John L.
chetlaham asked: "How does an refrigerator "explode"?"
Some refrigerators in other parts of the world use refrigerant R-600a which is actually isobutene. This is not an example of "fake news", it's an example of something you're not aware of.
I have personally seen electrical transformers explode.
Some refrigerators in other parts of the world use refrigerant R-600a which is actually isobutene. This is not an example of "fake news", it's an example of something you're not aware of.
I have personally seen electrical transformers explode.
explode or burn...
I was translating white papers for B/S/H when they started planning to make home refrigerators with flammable refrigerants.
They did an enormous amount of testing - both in terms of the manufacturing (vent fans and air flow and both sophisticated and mega-simple, fail-safe monitoring systems) as well as shipping, inventory, end-user.
Their engineers knew enough gas was present at the factory for an explosion. They knew enough was present in a delivery wagon on a train or in a truck for an explosion. They were unable, ever, to bring a single, solitary unit to explode with the amount of gas with which it was charged. Just couldn't get the air/gas mixture needed.
But - they (to their shock!) managed to ignite gas jets which burned long enough to set surrounding plastics on fire.
This really, really bothered them. Enough for them to change the composition of the materials, the rear wall and to reroute one capillary tube (at considerable expense).
Had I not been there, I'd have never known of it. It cost B/S/H enormous amounts of money to do it right. I sincerely doubt that the gas in a properly designed fridge, in an of itself can collect in the proper gas/air mixture to explode in the dictionary definition sense of the word. That, however, the plastics used and the awful construction and attention to safety (lack thereof) for which today's Hotpoint is known all contributed to one heck of a fire?
Don't doubt it one bit. That the melting plastic might have released enough explosive gas/es to make an explosion possible? Don't doubt that, either.
Is it possible Hotpoint had such a bad design that a pocket of R-600 managed to reach a gas/air mixture capable of explosion? Sadly, yes, I've seen enough of their trash in the UK to believe they'd make such a mistake.
So - realistically - no, refrigerators don't, all in all, explode. Can they, under certain conditions? Obviously, yes.
Is R-600 therefore a bad choice? Nope. Just Hotpoint.
I was translating white papers for B/S/H when they started planning to make home refrigerators with flammable refrigerants.
They did an enormous amount of testing - both in terms of the manufacturing (vent fans and air flow and both sophisticated and mega-simple, fail-safe monitoring systems) as well as shipping, inventory, end-user.
Their engineers knew enough gas was present at the factory for an explosion. They knew enough was present in a delivery wagon on a train or in a truck for an explosion. They were unable, ever, to bring a single, solitary unit to explode with the amount of gas with which it was charged. Just couldn't get the air/gas mixture needed.
But - they (to their shock!) managed to ignite gas jets which burned long enough to set surrounding plastics on fire.
This really, really bothered them. Enough for them to change the composition of the materials, the rear wall and to reroute one capillary tube (at considerable expense).
Had I not been there, I'd have never known of it. It cost B/S/H enormous amounts of money to do it right. I sincerely doubt that the gas in a properly designed fridge, in an of itself can collect in the proper gas/air mixture to explode in the dictionary definition sense of the word. That, however, the plastics used and the awful construction and attention to safety (lack thereof) for which today's Hotpoint is known all contributed to one heck of a fire?
Don't doubt it one bit. That the melting plastic might have released enough explosive gas/es to make an explosion possible? Don't doubt that, either.
Is it possible Hotpoint had such a bad design that a pocket of R-600 managed to reach a gas/air mixture capable of explosion? Sadly, yes, I've seen enough of their trash in the UK to believe they'd make such a mistake.
So - realistically - no, refrigerators don't, all in all, explode. Can they, under certain conditions? Obviously, yes.
Is R-600 therefore a bad choice? Nope. Just Hotpoint.
Exploding Refrigerators
Cigarette lighters can explode with barely one once of butane in then, refs usually have 4 or 5 ounces of butane in them.
Cigarette lighters can explode with barely one once of butane in then, refs usually have 4 or 5 ounces of butane in them.
rolls_rapide
Well-known member
Refrigerant
My Beko fridge-freezer has R600a, which is isobutane.
My Beko fridge-freezer has R600a, which is isobutane.
It's the volume of air to gas ratio which matters.
We all know this stuff can explode, its the necessary conditions for an explosion.
We all know this stuff can explode, its the necessary conditions for an explosion.
Hotpoint in the UK...
"I've seen enough of their trash in the UK to believe they'd make such a mistake" says Panthera...
Really ? what you would have seen is Indesit products with the Hotpoint name on them, alas Hotpoint UK had their main refrigeration plant in Peterborough their head office, and made quality refrigeration products that withstood the test of time since the 50`s and are still going strong today.
The cost cutting does see new models now consisting of a side skin of metal with foam insulation and a polycard backpanel, thats on most cheaper refrigeration products, ya get what ya pay for, Miele / Liebherr on the other hand are a different kettle of fish .
Whirlpool must rue the day they ever entered into world domination of the appliance market with the takeover of Indesit, BUT even we must be patient and see what the outcome of the affected model is, ie was it a faulty appliance ( as this model was not on a recall programme) or did other aspects conspire ?
Whatever it is its a horrendous situation for all those dear people affected, don't even ask about the underfunding of social housing stock since the Thatcher years in this country!!
"I've seen enough of their trash in the UK to believe they'd make such a mistake" says Panthera...
Really ? what you would have seen is Indesit products with the Hotpoint name on them, alas Hotpoint UK had their main refrigeration plant in Peterborough their head office, and made quality refrigeration products that withstood the test of time since the 50`s and are still going strong today.
The cost cutting does see new models now consisting of a side skin of metal with foam insulation and a polycard backpanel, thats on most cheaper refrigeration products, ya get what ya pay for, Miele / Liebherr on the other hand are a different kettle of fish .
Whirlpool must rue the day they ever entered into world domination of the appliance market with the takeover of Indesit, BUT even we must be patient and see what the outcome of the affected model is, ie was it a faulty appliance ( as this model was not on a recall programme) or did other aspects conspire ?
Whatever it is its a horrendous situation for all those dear people affected, don't even ask about the underfunding of social housing stock since the Thatcher years in this country!!
