Horrible Apartment Bulidng Fire In UK and Exploding Refrigerators.

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Exploding Refrigerators

It would be very easy to have an explosive mixture of gas and air behind the evaporator cover when a ref goes into defrost and the fan is off with just a few ounces of R-600, the folks at Bosch did not try very hard.

Even with refrigerants that are not flammable like R-12, R-22 or R-134A you can have quite a fire when a terminal blows out of the compressor and a spark occurs as the terminal is torn loose from a live wire and the refrigerant is blowing oil out, I have seen it happen.
 
"Transformers DO explode. The industry term is 'fault'. Consists of high to very high potentials escaping from where they belong, exceeding the trip rating of the switchgear feeding them, accompanied by an immense amount of heat inside a sealed container, breaching said container. In other words, exploding."

Of course they explode, and yes an uncleared fault within a transformer or uncleared external short circuit on the secondary of a transformer can cause one to explode from the oil boiling over and building pressure within the tank. Pole mounted units are the most susceptible because they are only protected by fuses and not sophisticated differential protection. That however does not make downed wires, arcing and sparking, an exploding transformer.




"I've seen it happen. So have a crew of hapless firemen helplessly watching it burn for hours. As though prescient, I awoke at 3AM just in time to hear a huge EXPLOSION a mile away, and the LED clock went dark. Only one thing within a mile of my house to explode. I drove to the substation and sure enough, 138kV transformer with 30-foot flames where the top used to be."

I never said transformers do not explode. In fact I've personally seen a few, from a distance go up in a fireball. Nowhere did I say they were in capable of doing that, but people are insinuating I did.

"Here's where you're right: Media covering a tornado, video of purple plasma on the horizon, voiceover says "transformer exploding". It's typically not. The industry calls that "faulting" too. And there is a rapid expansion of heated gas (atmosphere) making a sound akin to thunder but with a 120Hz component thrown in."

But why call it a transformer explosion when its not? Where would a doctor go calling a blocked artery an aneurysm? Or calling asthma, diabetes? Sure all of them are medical conditions, but their is a clear distinction.


"Here's why they say that: They have to call it something their audience (of dummies) can relate to and they settled on 'transf explod'g'."

The audience wouldn't be dummies if the media could call things for what they are. People understand "power lines arcing" just as well as an 'exploding electrical giget'



"Here's where you're also right: EVERY time I hear media reporting on something *I* know in some depth, they misspeak to some extent and sometimes a great extent. But to the bulk audience, the distinction is immaterial as it wouldn't understand the 'correct' terminology anyway, much less the physics. Worse, from media's perspective, the audience would actually tune away because their ignorance was being exposed. And if there's anything stupid people don't like it's their stupidity exposed."

Its not just in depth stuff, its everything. People would not be stupid or afraid if the media did not create an artificial understanding of reality such that people would run away when given the true facts.



"Which ironically is the root cause of the stupidity plague. Media being caught in that loop. It wouldn't pay them to be dead on balls accurate. (It's an industry term. My Cousin Vinny.)"

Its safe to say even you think the media plays a role in this, correct?

But going back to the fridge, I'd like to see solid evidence by those reporting it that the fridge exploded.
 
Firdiges with flammable refrigerant

"chetlaham asked: "How does an refrigerator "explode"?"

Some refrigerators in other parts of the world use refrigerant R-600a which is actually isobutene. This is not an example of "fake news", it's an example of something you're not aware of."


And while you are correct that 600a refrigerators exist, from that fact how can we say this particular fridge had R600a? All those outlets calling it an explosion have nothing to back it up, which is conflicting other outlets saying it was just that the fridge caught fire.

"I have personally seen electrical transformers explode.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO kenwashesmonday's LINK"

Again lol, Show me where I said its impossible for a transformer to explode. No offense to anyone, but this is kind of proving my point about how media influences thinking.
 
"I'd like to see proof, too. What does matter is that a lot of people died because of a badly built refrigerator. If and why it exploded are questions to be answered."

I agree. Without documented proof and/or an official investigation the reporting is speculation. But IMO, its not just the fridge to blame. The fire should not have spread like that, and while its just siting news reports, I hear that the cladding on the building is also to blame. Its very tragic and I hope answers come soon.

Panthera, by chance do you know anything about these Hotpoints?
 
Its not just small European fridges that are now R600A, our new Full size F&P is R600A, I wasn't impressed when it arrived and I discovered they're replaced their tried and true Condenser that was moulded into the outer walls of the fridge with one that looks like a small radiator and has a computer fan attached. The old fridge required no condenser cleaning because it was all built into the smooth walls of the fridge, the new one will need to be pulled and cleaned every 6 months.

We'll see how it lasts, its already had one service call for the electronics which is disappointing considering the one it replaced is 15years old and still working. One thing the repair man did enlighten me to, is that the 2 door Top and bottom freezers are still using the same plant that was used when they were built in Australia. They packed the factory up and moved it all to Thailand, so the interior liners, door hinges etc are all still made on the same design that they have been for the last 30 years. Its the Haier influence that is making the Refrigerant system more "Efficient"

Air-conditioning is also R600A here now as well, the 8kw unit we had installed last year is R600A, its use is very widespread.

What is the modern refrigerant standard in the US if its not R600A?

http://https//www.fisherpaykel.com/...r-drawer-with-ice-water-519l.RF522WDLUX5.html
 
US standard

In the USA it used to be R12, but went to R134a for refrigerators about 30 years ago. AC units just recently went from R22 to R410a. Commercial freezers used to be R502A and went to R404A and R507A, though the commercial systems is going by memory only so I could have forgotten the correct numbers for the new refrigerants. And while I don't know about 2017, I remember in the 2000s there were food plants around me that used ammonia as a refrigerant.
 
US refs are still using R134A, most window and central A/C systems are using R401.

 

Outer shell condensers are not as efficient especially if you want to install your ref in a tight spot, with a shell condenser heating the outside of the appliance is like making the ref operate in a 100F+ room all the time. It is better to get the heat away from the appliance and now that condenser fan motors often draw less than 5 watts it is far more efficient to use a fan. A condenser coil on the back of a ref should not need cleaning more than every  5 years or more unless you have a very dusty house, light dust accumulation has almost no effect on the operation of home refs.

 

The ref in the London fire did not kill 80 people, the cladding on the building and lack of good exits and lack of sprinkler systems throughout the building were the main cause of the excessive loss of life.

 

Strong fire codes should be the norm for any country, where I live sprinkler systems have been required in all new homes [ even single family ] apartments and businesses built since 1990
 
Sprinklers are required in all new homes in ME. Pex run to sprinklers are alot cheaper than rebuilding your home when a sprinkler could have saved it. My neighbor, the Fire Chief, swears by them but to do it in one of the oldest housing stock in this country, tearing ceilings out just wont work financially. Problem is around here, there are so many volunteer fire departments that nobody wants to dedicate the time to volunteer any more.
 
Swearing by them

Your neighbor would be right. I truly believe fire sprinklers should be in all new homes, but sadly its often amended out of the building codes at the local level. Sprinklers speak for themselves, and contrary to what people say the cost is next to nothing in a new home. You don't need any special plumbing, in most districts you can tap right off the potable water supply if you really wanted to.
 
Some familiarity

I was able to visit friends and relations in Scotland and Ireland frequently until 2014. Many have Hotpoint appliances - they're familiar, they have pleasing designs and, like the old Sears here in the US, there's still a sense of value.

Just, from what I've seen, the most played out Hotpoint from the 1970s with just a bit of restoration is going to be a safer, better working appliance than anything put out under that name after 2005.

 
 
I have also seen "exploding" transformers as well-and exploding oil filled capacitors.When I lived in Florida-during a hurricane a palm frond landed on top of a pole transformer------BOOM!!!Next day when going by that pole-ruptured transformer case still on the pole-lid,core-coil assembly on the ground.Oil caps--in various broadcast transmitters I have worked on-when they fulat-short inside arcing,gas builkdup and BOOM-cap goes oil everywhere inside the Tx and the film paper core bits everywhere inside,too.Glad there is a metal cabinet between me and the caps!There is a 3ph 115Kv-4160V 10MVA substation feeding our transmitter plant where I am at now--3 large oil filled transformers-each containing a few thousand gallons of oil each-hope there is no faults-Had one while on-a 4160V insulator blew-substation system went to protection-lockout mode-primary 115Kv switches open-had to call the Progress Energy folks to replace the insulator and rest their fault system.The 115Kv switches can open very quickly.Didn't see them open-would have liked to have seen that!!!!Even dry transformers can "explode" under certain conditions-hence keeping them in a metal case-not only to keep folks and animals from live parts-but to contain the debris if the transformer goes -"faults"HV primaries usually rupture in these-from a lightening hit,fault in the insulation and so on.Examined a 1Mva 13Kv-480V 3Ph dry transformer that served a shopping mall-heard it get hit by lightening-biggest BOOM and flash I ever saw!The transformer had two large fist sized holes blown in its HV primaries-and a good dent on the transformer case!-from the inside!
 
115kv speed

Oh yes! Newer systems with SF6 breakers and communicating protection relays (ie line differential; permissive over reaching transfer trip; DUTT; ect; ect) can clear in in as little a 4 to 5 cycles in a 60Hz (60 cycle) system.

But with that said yes I am well aware transformers explode and it has been witnessed by many. But if one was to type "transformer explosion" in YouTube 9 out 10 videos that pop up are just lines shorting out. Case in point:



Arcing fuse cutout:

 
And only because I can't edit (my apologies). To clarify #1 at 8:00 in the first video is an actual transformer explosion. Most likely a fault in the transformer causing the oil to heat up, build pressure and burst out in flames.
 
Fridge Fire

"The Hotpoint FF175BP was manufactured between March 2006 and July 2009 and has not previously been recalled. Tests will be carried out to establish whether a product recall is necessary, the government said.

Hotpoint said a total of 64,000 units were made over the three years, adding that the number of appliances in use today would be lower because of normal product obsolescence."

The model was made by Indesit under the Hotpoint brand; both are part of Whirlpool, whose UK head office is in Peterborough.A spokeswoman for the trading standards arm of Peterborough city council said it had contacted Whirlpool. “We have been in touch with the company and asked questions but the government is taking the lead on this and would be in charge of any product recall decision,” she said"

http://https//www.theguardian.com/u...eck-fridge-freezers-after-grenfell-tower-fire
View attachment chestermikeuk++7-3-2017-02-28-59.jpg
 
Hotpoint Notice

As soon as the brand was identified by fire officials Whirlpool under the Hotpoint brand issued a safety notice asap, and now we await the findings of a judicial inquiry / review / inquest into what really happened.

A sad demise of a great name in the world of appliances, and the ensuing tragedy for all those people involved, our thoughts and prayers are with them all !!

[this post was last edited: 7/3/2017-03:21]

http://https//www.hotpointservice.co.uk/fridgefreezer
chestermikeuk++7-3-2017-02-35-26.jpg
 
SF6 switch/breaker-the ones we have at the transmitter they are used to switch between main and aux 4160V feeders for each transmitter.Switches built by GW electric.They caution you to NEVER operate their SF6 switch when its under load.There is a key interlock system for these switches before you can operate them-You have to shut the transmitter being switched completely down.Then open its 4160V circuit breaker-then take the key from the breaker to unlock the SF6 switch.Then you operate the SF6 switch to change the line.Next take the breaker key from the switch and reset the transmitter breaker.The new Powell 4160V medium voltage breakers use vacuum contact bottles.Relays are solid state-These can trip[ under load up to 1200A.Main generator -powerline breakers are 1600A-vacuum contacts.SF6 breakers can explode when operated under load.They can be used as disconnects and or transfer switches when operated NO LOAD.Oh yes-guess this was on the burning apartment house and exploding fridges.And on those videos we do witness the "arc welder from Hell"!!!Power co linemen say-"we stay away from their fires!"-Firemen say-"We stay away from their wires!"Watched a video of a substation near Miami Fla that faulted-its transformer exploded-burning-finally a fuse cutout killed the power-then the power cfo killed power upstream of it so the firemen could put the fire out.The station was a total loss.Had to be replaced.Was frightening to watch!-that could happen here under the right circumstances.The 115Kv line we are on is shared by other major customers-Weyerhauser in New Bern and DuPont in Kinston.
 
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