How are you coping with the new dishwasher detergents?

[mr_sparkle]

My Powder

This is my powder of choice, its cheap and cleans amazingly, plus its got a good pouring action on the spout.

I was wondering after reading this thread if England has phosphates, but looking at those ingredients its got 30% phosphates!

I shocked as our government normally bans all things polluting, which is why I am guessing they have stopped adding them in the US?

http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1282031412010

 

[mr_sparkle]

Sorry just tried that link and it did not seem to work!

Here is a cut and paste!

Description
Lemon Dishwasher Powder


Sainsbury diswasher powder

Ingredients
Sainsburys Lemon Dishwash Powder contains amongst other ingredients: >30% Phosphates. 5-15% Oxygen Based Bleaching Agent. <5% Nonionic Surfactants. Contains Enzymes and Perfume

Country of Origin
Produced in United Kingdom

Size
3kg

Dosage

Storage
Store in a cool dry place.

Load your machine according to manufacturer's instructions.

Fill the dispenser to the fill level mark. If your machine has no such

mark, use 40g. powder (approx. 2 heaped tablespoons). In very hard water

conditions or very heavily soiled dishes, use slightly more powder, for

light loads or soft water, use slightly less powder.

To pour: Squeeze base of cap and lift back top. Replace lid immediately

after use.



Always ensure that the water softener unit is filled with dishwasher

salt. Use rinse aid to ensure sparkling results and prevent streaking.



Rinse and dry hands after use.

People with sensitive or damaged skin should avoid prolonged contact

with the product.

 

[re563]

I have been using Great Value (wal-mart) brand in my Bosch. Granted my Bosch does take 2 hrs for the Normal cycle, but like posted above, everything comes out clean and shinny. I have medium city water and no problems yet

 

[passatdoc]

$13 for 100 tabs at Costco

Mr Sparkle, my large container of Finish Powerball tabs cost $13.00 per 100 tabs, hence 13 cents per tab. I cannot find any mention of ingredients anywhere on the label, so I can't discern if this product still has phosphates or is now phosphate-free. If it IS phosphate-free, I can't seem to tell the difference. Normal cycle in my Bosch 300 series DW (year 2001 model) takes about two hours, PowerScrubPlus cycle more like 2 1/2 hours, but everything comes out clean. Bosch is so quiet that noise invading the rest of the house is not an issue, you can run it after dinner and then watch a movie without the noise becoming a bother. And this was a BOL model, not one of the higher end Bosch models that have lower decibel ratings.

 

[pulsator-power]

DW detergents

I was wondering what has been going on. Both Cascade Liquid and powder have been working like crap in the dw. Leaves film and I'd say at least 1/3 of the stuff needs to be rewashed. Real p.i.a!

What is STPP and where do you find it?
Jerry

 

[passatdoc]

I went on the Reckitt-Benheiser (Finish) website. There are no links to ingredients. The Finish Powerball container likewise has no information regarding ingredients. So I have no idea if my current supply is phosphate-free, or the old formula, but so far it seems to be working just fine.

 

[mrsalvo]

My Cascade days are over as well. I use Finish Powerballs and add 2 Tablespoons of Finish Magic Clean (water softener) in the other detergent dispenser....great results. If I'm out of the Magic Clean I spray a little Clorox Bleach clean up for counters in the tub and it does just as well. I have really hard water. Like everyone else I was experiencing horrid results with the new Cascade, white film build up on everything, so I'd rewash everything with detergent and a little bleach and all came out alright.

 

[whirlcool]

STPP or (Sodium Tripoly Phosphate) is a chemical phosphate used in Laundry Detergent and Dishwasher Detergent to condition the water for better cleaning. It is not a detergent in itself, it just softens and conditions the water to allow your detergent to do a better job.
The link will take you to the Chemical Store, which sells STPP.

Once you use it in both you laundry and dishwasher you'll wonder how you ever got by without it. Even set in stains usually will come out when it's added to the laundry, and your dishwasher will look like new on the inside. Your glassware will sparkle after you use it.

It's about as toxic as vinegar or butter. It's used in food preservation by commercial companies as well.

A little goes a long way. But shipping can cost as much as the product does. But a 5lb pail will probably last you 3-4 years.

http://www.chemistrystore.com/Chemicals_S_Z-Sodium_Tripolyphosphate.html

 

[mark_wpduet]

I wonder if this is the institutional Cascade that still has phosphates? What a shame if you bought it only to find that it was the phosphate free.

http://www.csnsupply.com/CASCADE-PAG00801CT-AXH1000.html

 

[mr_sparkle]

PassatDoc - that amount of powerball here would cost the equiv of about $34!

Rip off UK again!!!!!!!

I never buy Finish because of the high cost of it, and in all honesty I have found even the cheapest store brand "Basics" cleaners here were well.

I also read some bad reviews about Finish Quantum, so never took to it. Tried them free in my Bosch when I got it at Xmas and seemed ok but nothing special.

 

[mark_wpduet]

At one to two tablespoons every time you run the dishwasher and do laundry, I don't see how 5 lbs would last near that long. I just bought eight pounds from another site (2 4 lb containers)....I put on in the laundry and one in the kitchen. I could be wrong but I don't see even 8 pounds lasting near that long.

 

[launderess]

One or Two Tablespoons

Of STPP per dishwasher load seems a bit excessive.

Only use a scant 1/4 to 1/8 tablespoon in each detergent cup that has product for dishwashing, and <2 teaspoons for wash loads in the Miele.

Of course things will vary by conditions on the ground (water hardness), but there isn't a need to use huge amounts of phosphates.

For one thing too soft water for dishwashing and laundry is just as bad as too hard. Another reason is unlike products of old which indeed use >30% phosphates, modern dish and laundry detergents have better surfactants and other chemicals already. In short one is trying to step up one's game a bit, not totally reconfigure the team.

 

[sudsmaster]

Again...

The optimal amount of STPP to be added to either laundry or dishwasher detergent, enough to ensure good water softening AND cleaning, without being excessive, arrived at before the voluntary or involuntary bans on its usage, was found by detergent manufacturers to be about 33% STPP by weight, or about 8% phosphorus by weight. Since STPP weighs about the same as powdered detergent, one could simply use 1 part STPP for every 2 parts detergent of either sort.

So if you typically add 3 tsp of dishwasher detergent, then instead add 2 tsp of dishwasher detergent plus 1 tsp STPP.

If you typically add 3 tbs of dishwasher detergent, then instead add 2 tbs of dishwasher detergent plus 1 tbs STPP.

And so on and so forth.

Very hard water might require more STPP in the ratio. Very soft water might require less STPP in the ratio. One could also premix the detergent with STPP in the aforementioned ratio and then simply add more or less of the pre-mix as needed. I find this method to be most convenient. I use a small cement mixer to ensure even distribution of the STPP (first I used an ODJOB plastic barrel one rolls on the ground. I have since upgraded to a real motorized cement mixer used only for mixing detergents). Any way you can figure out how to mix the powdered ingredients evenly will work.

I doubt that a scant 1/4 tsp of STPP will do much of anything for a dishload in anything but very soft water and or rather clean dishes to begin with. But one's mileage may vary.

 

[launderess]

Here In NYC/NYS We Do Have Soft Water

But find if one adds to much STPP to dishwasher detergent it creates too much froth. Mind you this could be due to the fact the versions of Cascade we use have built in rinse agents.

In general have found it rather un-necessary to add more phosphates to dishwasher detergents. On the few occasions I did, there wasn't much of a difference, though this may change as my supply of old stock fades.

 

[sudsmaster]

"In general have found it rather un-necessary to add more phosphates to dishwasher detergents."

That may be because the older formulae contained about 25% to 33% STPP already.

 

[kqkenmore]

I bought a bunch of the Cascade with Phosphates and am going to vacuum seal it in jars to preserve it.Cannot stand the non phosphate version.

 

[launderess]

@sudsmaster

True dat! *LOL*

Really do not have space to store large amounts of powdered detergent, so am going to have to put my thinking cap on as to what to do for future.

Can always find Electrasol "Powerball" tabs, not the ghastly Quantam Finish version. The former was loaded with phosphates, while it seems the later does not, well at least it does not say on the box.

What really is odd is that virtually *ALL* automatic dishwasher detergents sold in NYC are now phosphate free, even the store brands. One can still find odd supply of Electrasol tabs which has the stuff, but that is about it.

Also it boggles my mind again, just where did all that STPP laden dishwasher detergent go? Even stores with low stock turn over such as bodegas, small "mom and pop" corner stores, and those discount stores owned by Middle Eastern persons who normally have out of date stock and other things, only carry the "new" version.

Am going to have to check out Nationwide Warehouse, normally one's last resort for "discontinued" products, and see what there is to see.

Also usually by now eBay is flooded with a "hot" commodity, and you would think all the previous phosphate stock that is now surplus would end up there, but no. Only thing is those darn gel pacs from Cascade.

We will learn more about this bright idea from P&G, removing phosphates from their entire product line, when the company releases it's annual report. If sales of Cascade have declined or a notice is made of special charges related to the dishwasher detergent division, it will be quite telling

 

[mark_wpduet]

Here in Lexington I think the water is very hard. The report I read says that water hardness can range from 5.1 to 12.4 grains per gallon. I will back off the STPP some.....Although, it seemed when I added 2 tbs it seemed to work better

 

[passatdoc]

@mrsparkle

The $13 cost was for a bulk pack at Costco. In a normal supermarket (say, our versions of Tesco or Sainsburys), one might pay $4 for a package of say 20 tablets. So perhaps $20 per hundred, though still cheaper than UK. One other item: sales tax is applied at the register, and is not included in the posted price. There are still a few US states without sales taxes, but most have them. In California it is 8.5%, so 100 tabs of Finish at the supermarket might run $22 total, and my $13.50 box at Costco probably cost closer to $15 at the check out register.

In California, sales tax applies to non-food items, but food is exempt. Carry-out and restaurant food IS taxed, as a luxury (vs. preparing at home) but food that you buy in a market to bring home and prepare is not taxed in California. Some US states do apply sales tax on uncooked food (Utah is an example). What this means is if you go the market and buy vegetables, fruit, meat, Finish, and Tide detergent, the soaps will be taxed but not the raw fruit, veggies, or meat.

 

[mr_sparkle]

PassatDoc we have excatily the same tax here. At Costco all prices are Ex Vat and they add it at the till, again like you with food that is a "basic" its tax free.

Same in supermarkets here, you pay tax on luxury items such as ready made food, but the raw ingredients are not taxed.