How are your appliances connected
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Four conductors? I can top that!
Here's a picture of an old 380V (nowadays 400V) plug, it has five conductors. This was on the old Miele dishwasher I had for a while.
Theo,
You're living a dangerous life. Electricity wise and hot water wise. How is your gas connection?
Here's a picture of an old 380V (nowadays 400V) plug, it has five conductors. This was on the old Miele dishwasher I had for a while.
Theo,
You're living a dangerous life. Electricity wise and hot water wise. How is your gas connection?
Well so many reactions, let's pickup where I left last night...
Toggleswitch:
Your "air hammer eliminators" (in Dutch we would say "water hammer") are wonderful, all copper and simplicity itself. Do they work well?. I think I can make one myself with a dead-end length of copper tubing. What are the diameters of the tubes in the US. Here standard diameters for copper tubing in domestic set ups are 12, 15 and 22 mm. Oddly enough when threaded connectors are used we still have inch sizes: 3/8", 1/2", 3/4" etc.
And your washer: you have combined the hot and cold water inlet so I suppose that the washer uses the same temperature water both for washing and rinsing?
At your request I have taken some pictures of our plumbing. Here's the first one, down the pit where it all begins:
Toggleswitch:
Your "air hammer eliminators" (in Dutch we would say "water hammer") are wonderful, all copper and simplicity itself. Do they work well?. I think I can make one myself with a dead-end length of copper tubing. What are the diameters of the tubes in the US. Here standard diameters for copper tubing in domestic set ups are 12, 15 and 22 mm. Oddly enough when threaded connectors are used we still have inch sizes: 3/8", 1/2", 3/4" etc.
And your washer: you have combined the hot and cold water inlet so I suppose that the washer uses the same temperature water both for washing and rinsing?
At your request I have taken some pictures of our plumbing. Here's the first one, down the pit where it all begins:
The staircase illumination fuse box. Being relatively recent, it has survived the change from the two hot wires 220V system to the hot wire plus neutral 230V system. All other fuse boxes dated from the 1930s and were replaced. You can still see the second fuse hole. In the two hot wires 220V system two fuses per circuit were needed:
Gabriele:
You have no "gasgebrekklep"? Oh dear, oh dear, that's an unsafe situation!
I like the Italian plug style, looks like a super euro plug. I dislike the schuko sockets. They are the most difficult to clean of all types I know of.
Do you use the warm water that is delivered from the water company for showering? Here we are advised to use water that has been heated to a temperature of at least 65C.
You have no "gasgebrekklep"? Oh dear, oh dear, that's an unsafe situation!
I like the Italian plug style, looks like a super euro plug. I dislike the schuko sockets. They are the most difficult to clean of all types I know of.
Do you use the warm water that is delivered from the water company for showering? Here we are advised to use water that has been heated to a temperature of at least 65C.
MrX:
Yes, the majority of our wiring is 1930s. The wires are insulated with rubber and cotton and have the old colour scheme red/green/black. I have opened a socket box. This is old, but not as old as the boxes with rotary switches that I also have:
Yes, the majority of our wiring is 1930s. The wires are insulated with rubber and cotton and have the old colour scheme red/green/black. I have opened a socket box. This is old, but not as old as the boxes with rotary switches that I also have:
I must say that I don't feel at least worried about my electrical installation. I have never known anything else. At my parent's house the installation was even older, dating from the 1910's. We had there very old sockets and switches made out of wood and porcelain and there were even remnants of insulators on the ceilings from the time that wires were not installed in tubes.
However, I thought it a good idea to install a RCD (Dutch: "aardlekschakelaar") to increase the safety level a bit:
However, I thought it a good idea to install a RCD (Dutch: "aardlekschakelaar") to increase the safety level a bit:
Glowing fuses
Fuses do not blow immediately in the event of overloading. Only in case of a short circuit. With a moderate overload they warm up first. As I said before, my parents had a very old installation and ditto fuse box. You could look right inside even without opening it and touch the bare wires if you wanted to. At some time I noticed that the box, made from white porcelain, was quite hot and as the box was located in a dark cabinet I looked closely inside and saw the glowing. Of course the glowing was very faint. I had to close the door to observe it in complete darkness.
Fuses do not blow immediately in the event of overloading. Only in case of a short circuit. With a moderate overload they warm up first. As I said before, my parents had a very old installation and ditto fuse box. You could look right inside even without opening it and touch the bare wires if you wanted to. At some time I noticed that the box, made from white porcelain, was quite hot and as the box was located in a dark cabinet I looked closely inside and saw the glowing. Of course the glowing was very faint. I had to close the door to observe it in complete darkness.
Interesting!
Of course, the interconnection of all those bathroom elements, properly termed "Earthed Equipotential Bonding" also results in their being grounded to earth. The process of bonding aims at achieving equal potential, as MRX states...but as soon as a connection to earth is present, everything is, obviously, also grounded.
One may occasionally still find a 25Amp 230V Single Phase setup in Munich,(stoves/cookers for instance can still be wired for that) but generally speaking, we use three phase for any single consumer taking more than a 16 Amp Single Phase circuit can comfortably handle. The instant water heater for my bathtup/shower for instance or a large motor - three phase motors are cheaper, more reliable and easier to build.
Before the Europeans get all too excited about American electrical system deficiencies, my apartment was still earthed using TN-C, or "classic bridge" - earth and neutral were the same conductor when I got it. I made such a scene that the entire system was updated, but it left me with a very bad taste in my mouth regarding wiring elsewhere in the house...it only takes one in-duh-vi-dual to reverse P/N and things can get very interesting.
I have to agree, the Schuko outlets seem to attract and hold dirt, grease and grime. The only sensible way to clean them is to unscrew the outlet cover and run them through the dishwasher. At least I've never found a better solution.
Question: Was the old "two hot wire" system in the Netherlands split-phase or two-phase?
http://ss
Of course, the interconnection of all those bathroom elements, properly termed "Earthed Equipotential Bonding" also results in their being grounded to earth. The process of bonding aims at achieving equal potential, as MRX states...but as soon as a connection to earth is present, everything is, obviously, also grounded.
One may occasionally still find a 25Amp 230V Single Phase setup in Munich,(stoves/cookers for instance can still be wired for that) but generally speaking, we use three phase for any single consumer taking more than a 16 Amp Single Phase circuit can comfortably handle. The instant water heater for my bathtup/shower for instance or a large motor - three phase motors are cheaper, more reliable and easier to build.
Before the Europeans get all too excited about American electrical system deficiencies, my apartment was still earthed using TN-C, or "classic bridge" - earth and neutral were the same conductor when I got it. I made such a scene that the entire system was updated, but it left me with a very bad taste in my mouth regarding wiring elsewhere in the house...it only takes one in-duh-vi-dual to reverse P/N and things can get very interesting.
I have to agree, the Schuko outlets seem to attract and hold dirt, grease and grime. The only sensible way to clean them is to unscrew the outlet cover and run them through the dishwasher. At least I've never found a better solution.
Question: Was the old "two hot wire" system in the Netherlands split-phase or two-phase?
http://ss
Panthera:
I think that we had a two-phase system. I must admit that I have no idea what a split-phase system is. Anyway, when you compare the two systems: the old system had an effective voltage of 127V compared to ground and the new system has an effective voltage of 230V compared to ground. I will have to inform myself!
BTW the link doesn't work.
I think that we had a two-phase system. I must admit that I have no idea what a split-phase system is. Anyway, when you compare the two systems: the old system had an effective voltage of 127V compared to ground and the new system has an effective voltage of 230V compared to ground. I will have to inform myself!
BTW the link doesn't work.
Oh my! I impressed that you guys have not burnt down your homes or have gotten electocuted. We have many safety standards here in the U.S.. First you cannot have electricity closer than 6 feet from any other utilities, such as gas, phone or cable or water coming into your house. Not a good combination. Those are some real old switches in your home. We have 400amp service in our home. We have seven different circuits just in our kitchen not included the "cooker" which has its own dedicated 240v 50 amp breaker. I can't imagine living with 16 amp service even though it's 220-240. I would blow that in a minute. I like our massive plugs for 220v, yours just don't look all that secure to handle large loads of power. Please just be safe and install gfi's on everything. Thanks for the information very interesting reading.
Jon
Jon
Here are a few pictures of my installation. The first picture is of my electricity meter, the fuses and the GFI (the rotatry switch). The groups with the green switches are connected to the GFI. The group with the white switch is for the washing machine. This apartment was built in 1947, the installation was renewed in 1982. It still has the old fashioned fuses, newer installations have switches.
The gas meter is under the electricity meter. You can see the electricity cables behind it. The blue cable is an old phone cable which is no longer in use. I changed to phone by cable.
The water meter is in the kitchen, between the dishwasher and a kitchen cabinet. It's a very inconvenient place for it but these apartments didn't originally come with a water meter.
A picture of the taps for both washers and the drain pipe. The thin hose is the drain hose of the condenser dryer.
To make it complete I'll repost the pictures I posten in the other thread. Each washer and dryer set is on one of these automatic switch boxes.
And both of them (one for the AEG set and one for the Miele set) is connected to the main switch box which was originally meant for hooking up a washer and a dryer. When on W(asher) the AEG set gets the power, when on D(ryer) the Miele set is connected.
Jon,
Of course 16 amps for an entire apartment is way too little. But a 16 amp branch circuit at 230V single Phase is going to handle a continuous load of 3,600 Watts...
A lot of these outlets and installations are very old and no longer code. Generally speaking, 230V installations make possible much thinner wires, the plugs are really quite stable.
It's the old problem, double the voltage, halve the current, cut the heat 75%.
Single phase, split-phase, two-phase, three-phase have all lead to some really nasty discussions here so I strongly urge the anal-retentive to resist the urge to attack. This stuff is interesting, let's not turn it into the dog fight the last two discussions were...
Split-phase, to answer the question, is a simple answer to the difficult problem of how to satisfy heavy consumers - cooker, dryer, water heater while still serving normal consumers - stereo, TV, lighting, refrigerator, etc.
As I noted above, when you double voltage you reduce the current by half. That means you can reduce the conductor size in the wiring considerable - not quite proportionally because of physical limits, but enough that the savings on copper and weight are considerable. It is the current which generates heat, not voltage.
To get split phase, all you need to do is to take a single phase AC input. It can be of higher or lower or the same voltage, but is often considerably higher. This input goes to the primary taps of a transformer. The secondary taps of the transformer have an extra, center tap. Between the two outside taps you have (for instance) 240 Volts. Between either of the outside taps and the center tap you have 120 volts. All you have to do is run that center tap (Neutral) and the two outside taps to the service panel and all sorts of problems are resolved. With careful load balancing, it should be possible to even run duplex 120V outlets with only one neutral but each socket having one of the split phases (obviously you'd want to pigtail those, not to think what would happen if the first outlet of a branch series were simply removed and that neutral disconnected).
Non-anal-retentives call this "two-phase", tho', of course it isn't.
I'd rather have three phase any day, but the solution is admirably simple, reliable and proved.
Some parts of the UK use a "ring" system which, when properly done, saves copper and provides a more consistent voltage. Be nice to hear about that.
Of course 16 amps for an entire apartment is way too little. But a 16 amp branch circuit at 230V single Phase is going to handle a continuous load of 3,600 Watts...
A lot of these outlets and installations are very old and no longer code. Generally speaking, 230V installations make possible much thinner wires, the plugs are really quite stable.
It's the old problem, double the voltage, halve the current, cut the heat 75%.
Single phase, split-phase, two-phase, three-phase have all lead to some really nasty discussions here so I strongly urge the anal-retentive to resist the urge to attack. This stuff is interesting, let's not turn it into the dog fight the last two discussions were...
Split-phase, to answer the question, is a simple answer to the difficult problem of how to satisfy heavy consumers - cooker, dryer, water heater while still serving normal consumers - stereo, TV, lighting, refrigerator, etc.
As I noted above, when you double voltage you reduce the current by half. That means you can reduce the conductor size in the wiring considerable - not quite proportionally because of physical limits, but enough that the savings on copper and weight are considerable. It is the current which generates heat, not voltage.
To get split phase, all you need to do is to take a single phase AC input. It can be of higher or lower or the same voltage, but is often considerably higher. This input goes to the primary taps of a transformer. The secondary taps of the transformer have an extra, center tap. Between the two outside taps you have (for instance) 240 Volts. Between either of the outside taps and the center tap you have 120 volts. All you have to do is run that center tap (Neutral) and the two outside taps to the service panel and all sorts of problems are resolved. With careful load balancing, it should be possible to even run duplex 120V outlets with only one neutral but each socket having one of the split phases (obviously you'd want to pigtail those, not to think what would happen if the first outlet of a branch series were simply removed and that neutral disconnected).
Non-anal-retentives call this "two-phase", tho', of course it isn't.
I'd rather have three phase any day, but the solution is admirably simple, reliable and proved.
Some parts of the UK use a "ring" system which, when properly done, saves copper and provides a more consistent voltage. Be nice to hear about that.
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