How Washington, DC Ruined Your Washing Machine

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What an eye opener!
The dumb down water temps on these new machine is the cause of all problems.
Let alone poor rinsing and longer wash times.
Where is the true savings in this hype?
Go green....., yeah right!

cleanteamofny++3-17-2011-19-05-52.jpg
 
front loader washers are bad clothe are ment to be agitated in water with an agitator witch lets the suds of the detergent get in the clothes not tumble in just a bit of water i have a duet washer from whirlpool thats dates from 2004 (1 gen of duet washers and if i have something to washe in eather the gentle delicate cycle or hand wash its skips to the first rinse with out removing the suds thats left on or in the fiber of the clothe not very good in my eyes.
 
Sad but true. The more I research the new washers, the more I appreciate my old deep fill Kenmore Elite top loader from 2002. It doesn't have an "energy star" anywhere on it, but it will get your clothes clean and to date has never needed a service call. And I'm afraid the story is similar with the new HE dishwashers.
 
Pierre, you refuse to understand front loading washer's approach to doing laundry.  You simply cannot think about appproaching how to do laundry in an old way with new technology without poor results.  Every front loader I've ever come across--european as well as modern ones, do not do spins between and after every wash & rinse for delicatre and hand washable fabrics.  My Frigidaire doews not do any spins between rinses on my perm/press/wrinkle free cycle until right before the final rinse.  I have no issues at all with what I consider poor rinsing, if I did, I'd be itching, and my clothes come out extrmely clean, better than my old Lady Shredmore.  And my stuff is lasing longer with a front loader than with the GE Filter-flo or the Lady Shredmore. 
 
I think the future of TL machines (roughly 1996 and older) could look a lot like the present day Cuba with regard to pre-1959 American cars, which are kept running as opposed to getting crushed through manufacture of replacement parts or adapting non-original components.

 

With all the boomer parent households currently being liquidated, there's no better time to snag a capable TL machine that was built not only to perform, but also to last.  Before the rest of the country catches on.
 
Out Of My Cold Dead Hands!

To quote the late Mr. Heston. *LOL*

Love my water hogs of washers, this includes the Hoover TT, and Whirlpool portable.

Much as one loves the Miele, some things need to be immersed totally in water for good washing results.

Case in point,started spring cleaning this week and that meant windows cleaned and curtains washed. Learned from several past experiences that filthy curtains simply do not come clean in the Miele, even at it's highest wash water level (woolens program).

In the past would have bunged the lot in my Hoover TT which does the job a treat, but this year used the Whirlpool top loader and it was grand. Two hot sudsy washes (with Ecolab high phosphate detergent), and two rinses later (not to mention all those spray rinses), my curtains were sparkling bright white again. No muss, no fuss, end of story.

The really sad thing is with the federal goverment offering so much on the table to make "energy saving" appliances, manufacturers would be fools to leave it on the table and go it alone. This means zero, zip, nada R&D much less production to come of high water use top , much less front loading washing machines. When Whirlpool can reduce it's tax bill on several hundred millions in profits to zero with tax breaks, you can forget seeing the old Maytag or any other brand they own back as "water hogs" anytime soon.
 
This doesn't surprise me in the least. That's why I'm hoping from being a part of this club, that I'll be able to keep an old washer running. I'm starting to not like anything new anymore.
 
some true points, but some misinformation also

I agree that today's new top loaders are not very good machines, especially with dumbed-down water temps. My 1955 Frigidaire Unimatic is a great TL - fun to watch and does a great job. I've also owned front loaders for 11 years and am pleased with the superior performance.

The writer states FLs are expensive, often have mold and you can't add a stray sock. I think he is stacking the deck to make his point. FL prices are dropping, I've seen new models with a heater and steam for under $700. That is not much more than top of the line TLs. (Those great TLs from the 50s and 60s our parents bought cost the equivalent of about $2,000 in today dollars.)

I think mold issues are 98% operator caused. I've never experienced mold or odors in my FL. And I've seen mold in TLs.

And we all know you can add a garment after the cycle starts in the FL.

I'm glad they still make TLs for folks that want them. But I wouldn't want one of these new ones.
 
YES,Get the Gov't out of our laundryrooms,kitchens,bathrooms,tool sheds,and homes-down with Dept of Energy-SHUT HER DOWN-think of the contribution to the easing of the budget by shutting down and elinminating all of these unneeded rules and regs-LET THE CUSTOMER decide what washer,dishwasher,potty, he wants to buy.Enough of this NONSENSE!!!Up with water hog washers,pottys,and dishwashers-they got the job done RIGHT!!I am the one paying to use them!!
 
I always had excellent results in my Frigidaire Affinity (1st version) HE front loader, it never had problems with mold or odors and my whites are really white.
the secret is NEVER overload it. the drum is huge, it doesn't mean I should toss all my wardrobe in it.

Of course it won't last as a vintage machine, but I still believe it was an excellent deal, specially because I got it for less than R$600 (almost U$300) as I was an active Electrolux employee when i bought it, a few months before my retirement.

I think the problems in the US are:
1) Detergent manufacturers didn't realize the formulas should be almost like the european ones. (at least the american HE detergents I have produce much more suds than the european ones)
2) Manufacturers should have never told the users to put liquid detergents in the drawer while the drawers weren't supposed to dispense this kind of detergent. If you're using liquids and your FL doesn't have a liquid dispenser, just toss it straight on the load.
3) Something that every european housewife knows: NEVER KEEP THE DOOR CLOSED WHEN THE WASHER ISN'T IN USE.

I've been using my machine with argentinian Skip (Unilever), which is exactly the same formula as in Europe (both liquid and powder versions), sometimes the argentinian ALAmatic, sometimes the brazilian Ariel Ecomax and now I'm also using the brazilian "Ariel with a touch of softener" liquid.

Every time i use any american detergent, i can see suds on the bottom of the glass and the rinsing is poor. I have to repeat the cycle and always use the extra rinse option to get a decent rinse (you know that old story, don't you?) The only time it didn't oversuds was when i did a full load of whites with Tide HE at the first line. it didn't make any suds but also didn't clean. while when i use other detergents i see the "white" water, but not even a single bubble. The first rinse drains almost clear and the second rinse drains clear. I don't even use the extra rinse option.

Only one american detergent (I have more than 10 different versions and brands) didn't oversuds using the right dose. It was Purex 3x1 laundry sheets, but I also didn't like the results.

Btw, water here is too soft and most of the brazilians never heard about hard water.

Now a question:

If both american and european FLs use almost the same amount of water, proportional to the size of the washer, how can the european machines clean and rinse ok and americans can't?

Is the machine so guilty as people say? Aren't there other factors that might change the final result?

Use and programs:

What I see in the US is most of the people running the shortest cycles (because the TLs were fast).
Come on. ask any european if they would use a 30 minute cycle to wash a full load of very dirty whites.
What you'll hear is: it won't clean, you must use the long cycle (+- 2 hours)

The american machines are huge to hold comforters (lots of air) and because americans have plenty of space in the laundry rooms and also love huge things (machines, cars, even detergent bottles and corn flakes boxes) but for CLOTHES like pants and t-shirts, the american machines can't hold much more laundry than the tiny european machines. My frigidaire Affinity is a 10kg capacity washer if compared to an euro 8kg machine.

Owners of American FLs, please make a test. fill the drum with clothes a little bit more than half (if they are too stained). run the sanitize or whites whites cycle using an european detergent (most of us have access to them) and after the cycle, check the results. even the worst machine will clean much better than a wintage whirlpool top loader's standard 14 minutes wash.

Now repeat the test using any american HE detergent... OOOps, it didn't clean as well and didn't rinse ok.

Throw the first rock who never paused a standard vintage TL to let the heavy stained clothes soak for 1 or 2 hours or used some soap bar and elbow grease to release some stains. (soaking plus the cycle = 2 hours or more)

Modern HE FLs could and should be much better, they aren't the best and europe is decades ahead the U.S about Fls, but the american Fls aren't the only villains too.
Detergent manufacturers and consumer habits should change too.
The machines are changing, the new generation of HEFLs is much better than the first one, but detergents didn't change as fast and consumers didn't change too much.
The confirmation of that are thousands of american consumers that love their HEFLs and thousands that hate them. If we check carefully, most of the people that hate HEFLs didn't adapt the laundry habits to the "new" technology.

HEFLs use much less electricity so, even running a 2 hour cycle they spend less energy than a vintage TL 30 or 40 minute cycle. and they might spend even less than some european cold fill machines because the heating element won't need to be used so long.

It's very easy to say "it didn't clean, this machine sucks" but... what about the other parameters? Why not try something different like other detergents and other cycles? Think about that, friends, before blaming only the washers.

And always remember, HEFLs are much different from the vintage american FLs.
 
Over here in Oz Consumer Report assessments of top and front loaders do not make such sweeping statements. Their statistics show that all types of machines fall within a 30% range from approx. 58% to 88% for cleaning performance. The vast majority of top and front loaders fit within the 75% to 88% range. Not one machine rates 90% or better. Rinsing still rates higher with many top loaders than most front loaders.

At my work we use both top and front loaders. The two front loaders are brand new Speed Queen washer/dryer stacks. These are commercial machines as would be used in a laundromat. They come with four cycles - heavy, normal, perma press and delicate. The longest cycle from start to finish is 29 minutes the other three run from 25 to 23 minutes respectively. They draw hot and cold water, but I don't believe these machines have a heater. Also, when the heavy cycle is selected the hot water is still mixed with cold. They don't give a true hot wash. We use Eltra detergent, which is supposedly hospital grade stuff.

The cycles on the Speed Queens are ridiculously short. In order to remove smells, stains and residual detergent, clothes have to be put through one or two additional cycles. They are supposed to spin at 1000 rpm, but the clothes don't feel much dryer than when they come out of the Maytag TLs. The Speed Queen stacked dryers allow a maximum of 45 minutes for all drying cycles. With regular mixed loads that isn't long enough either, regardless of whether they were washed in the front or top loaders. These are not domestic machines and the focus is clearly on time, water and energy efficiency, but their performance sucks.

Our older top loaders do a much better job at cleaning and rinsing hands down, first time around. None of the staff like using the new front loaders for that reason. Though, they have proven useful with duvets and pillows. If I could somehow reprogram the Speed Queens to lengthen the cycle times, maybe we'd get better results. When I get my hands on the specs and key to open the control panels I'll check out what can be done.
 
Our Local Laundrette Has Those SQ Washers As Well

Thing to keep in mind is they are designed for the US market where chlorine bleach rules. If you aren't using the stuff, then yes you are going to have to find some work arounds. Detergents designed for long "Euro" type frontloaders with long wash cycles do not have enough time to get up to speed.

As for "hot" fills, yes the same thing happens here. Was told by the attendent that since the water supply comes from the same boilers as what supply the large apartment building above,water must be "tempered". What a load of flannel.

Really only use the place anymore for loads that are too large for the Miele, and or would require all day to get sorted. Otherwise don't bother, as the thought just puts me off.

You might wish to nip around Alliance/SQ's website (with the model number of your washer), to see what can be found in terms of adjusting the washer's fill.
 
The fill is actually okay, at least for the wash part of the

There are only two rinse fills that I've observed, which stays below the rubber boot and there is an awful lot of spinning going on. Right after the wash part of the cycle the machine empties and begins to spin slowly. At that point there is a short spray of fresh water that enters the the tub from the top of the boot, then it goes straight to the first rinse fill. I wouldn't mind more water for the rinse cycle and will have a look at that too.

Chlorine bleach is widely used over here as well. Though, this is at my work and bleach is not allowed because of fumes and possible skin contact. That's why we use Eltra, which is a commercial grade, anti-bacterial detergent made in the USA. It is formulated for use in both types of machines and cleans well in the top loaders, but doesn't do jack in our front loaders. I guess as long as the germs are dead, who cares about spots and stains.

We only wash out residents' personal garments. Sheets and towels are supplied by us and laundered through a big commercial place. They clearly use lots of bleach in their machines. I've had towels and sheets come back with bleach burns and often find stuff that doesn't even belong to us.
 
Marketing

Another part of the problem is the marketing of these front load machines.  Fill it to the max and only use a teaspoon of detergent.  That's what you hear from the salesperson when looking at an expensive washer.  Its a recipe for disaster!

 

Malcolm
 
Fill it to the max and only use a teaspoon of detergent

Not only that, but a lot of folk out there simply don't care. It is machine washing dumbed down to the lowest common denominator with a focus on everything else, but clean, well-rinsed clothes. This is what we get when we blindly believe the marketing spin. I do care for the environment, but good hygiene isn't an eco option, it's about using soap and water until the dirt is gone.
 
Love my front loader

We have been using a Whirlpool Duet HT since November 2007. I agree with Appnut! The FL is much easier on our clothes and yes they are lastig longer. I do however agree with Malcom in how the FL are advertised. You cannot pack it to the gills and expect everything to come out cleam. My rule of thumb is I load my FL 3/4 of the way to the top of the tube. I also use GOOD HE detergent.

Rinsing has never been an issue! My wife has allergies to various detergents. So far she has not had one episode of breaking out and itching since we purchased the FL.

Also with the FL I'm pumping in 48+ gallons of water into my septic after each load of laundry. The max my FL uses is 22 gallons.
 
My error

I ment to say when we had a TL (Maytag 512A) it PUMPED 48+ gallons of water into my septic tank (we're not on city sewage) versus 22+ gallons from my FL. We got the FL after we got rid of the Maytag after it went belly up. Didn't know about AWO at the time.
 
FEDERAL and STATE tax credits exceed the washers profit

Many Washers sold in the USA are DESIGNED PURPOSELY to get that sweet tax credit kick back if the water usage is real small.

Thus the PRIMARY design goal is to get that tax credit instead of top performance.

WSJ LINK:

"Whirlpool has stockpiled more than $500 million in tax credits for making energy-saving "energy star" appliances—washers, dryers, refrigerators and so on. The firm gets a production tax credit of up to $200 per refrigerator, $75 per dishwasher, and $225 per washer and dryer. General Electric has also collected about $200 million of these credits. "

"These appliance credits are in addition to $300 million the feds gave to states as part of the 2009 stimulus to pay rebates to consumers for buying these same goods. So there's one subsidy to make the machines and another to buy them. The Department of Energy says these appliances save families money by reducing energy use by more than half. If that's true, why does the government have to bribe people to make these purchases? "

Thus summer of 2009 washer a sold here gave the washer maker 225 dollars in federal tax credits and often 100 dollars in some state's tax credits funded by the feds.

A 325 dollar tax credit makes that FL washer on sale be just 550 bucks.

If an existing set of FL washer mechanics can be tweaked in software to use 10 percent less water to grab that tax credit, the USA washer marketing group will over ride performance.

The same thing happens with cars and trucks, if the maker can modify the engine PROM to make the car's official mileage sticker be 32 instead of 31 MPG; the change is done and the care makers corporate fleet average goes higher.

The USA's usage of FL washers goes back to about 1940.

Here my family got a Westy FL washer in 1947 and 1976, and I got a front load LG last fall in 2010.

It is totally ignorant to say the USA is new to front loaders. It is like saying one has never heard of WW2 or a B17 bomber.

America used FL washers for 50 years with ZERO mold issues, or stupid cleaning of boots with bleach, or smell issues. About 1 to 2 percent of us used FL washers here before the USA got botched government steered FL designs.

American Newcomers to FL washers, ie folks who first got one after say 1992 about all blame the soaps, water temp, instead of a radically less robust design.

Government dictated plans distort what folks want.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704506004576174321393436988.html
 
What Bob said.

My two cents:

 

<ul>
<li>I'm 54 years old and I've seen the good that the EPA regulations have done for the country's environment within the span of my lifetime. Yes, I'd rather see the government get MUCH tougher on corporations and industry polluters, but face it, we consumers outnumber them by some astonishing number. Using less water, less carbon and producing less waste are good practices, even if they ruin a little bit of our fun.</li>
<li>I LOVE vintage top loaders. I LOVE using them once in a while for fun. Since I lived in Europe in the late Seventies and saw how their washers (mosty Mieles) worked, you cannot convince me that any American made machine can or could match them in performance, washing, rinsing or spinning. I don't know about new American FL's; I have NO DOUBT that the greedy sh*ts that are in charge of manufacturing them can't find a way to render them ineffective or unreliable to realize a greater profit for their stockholders and to build their useless wives another walk-in shoe closet.</li>
<li>I have an LG front loader and I use it all the time because nothing else does a better job or is easier to use.</li>
<li>Face it, this is what I tell my students about food and cooking in America: the vast majority of Americans don't give a damn about their laundry, if it went into the washer and then into the dryer, as far as they're concerned the job is done. Do you think 99% of Americans can tell whether the detergent residue has been rinsed out of their clothes???? Do you think they would care???? Some might care if the fabric softener left their clothes smelling funky but that is even doubtful. I had a friend in high school who smelled of Wisk (remember that smell?) all day long because, I must assume, her mother used that product and continued to use way too much of it until we graduated. No one cares about laundry anymore. My Grandmother cared, and told us about soaking clothes in lukewarm milk and squeezing lemon juice into the rinse cycle to remove the soap and freshen the clothes, but that is only because she was a full-time housewife who was never given the opportunity to run Wall Street as she should have. Remember, we live in a country full of people that give their children Pop-Tarts for breakfast and think they're giving them good nutrition. </li>
<li>We are a select small group who have, hallelujah, found each other and enjoy community over these issues. Hate to be the cold wet dishrag of reality but nobody else cares about this. Americans have been buying crappy washing machines for four decades and will continue to do so. I can't count how many people have asked me what appliance to buy, when they find out I know about this stuff, and then go  and buy whatever piece of crap the salesman directs them to. </li>
</ul>

bajaespuma++3-18-2011-09-49-50.jpg
 
What a load of flannel.

OH I AGREE. WHAT A LOAD OF DIRT THAT IS!

Quote: As for "hot" fills, yes the same thing happens here. Was told by the attendent that since the water supply comes from the same boilers as what supply the large apartment building above,water must be "tempered".

Unless the laundry room is within the apartment buildng itself (i.e. for residential tenants' use) and/or building-owner operated, it is RARE to have a commercial laundry establishment not have its own hot-water supply. If nothing else, one wants to meter the charges for usage to the owner of the BUSINESS (laundromant/tenant) not the owner of the BUILDING (landlord).

Personally I want a Euro boil-washer and Euro electric condenser dryer, and a good old-fashioned.....er make that "Classic"... TOL Maytag top-loading washer and gas, vented dryer. With those four appliances I can have the best of perfomance, efficency, speed and capacity, and "green".

Let's just say I am coveting a certain set of UK MaytAskos posted here occasionally! :-)

In Puerto Rico (a tropical climate) a public laundromat I had used actually had a "Y" connector in the rear feeding tap-temperature water to both the "Hot" and Cold" inlets. One got "WARM" water at all times of the day; hotter when it was hot out. Not a sign to this effect anywhere. VOILA no hot-water expense!
 
Another Thing About Those SQ Laundromat Front Loaders

What is up with the pitiful final extraction? Huh? Hmm? Huh?

Swear items taken out of one of those machines are near dripping wet, certainly no where near is dry with the Miele (even at 900 rpms), nor even the Whirlpool portable for that matter.

Suppose the idea is to bake one's laundry dry in those uber heated laundromat dryers. However if there is any sort of detergent and or soil residue on the laundry you are also cooking it into the textiles as well. No wonder so many persons who use laundromats only for their washing have tattle-tale grey wash.
 
just a fact about newer front loaders

i just went to add a fact about newer front loaders today say you have a stain shirt that needs to be wash in hot water on the delicate or hand wash cycle you will notice for a fact that the hot water temp option is not possible with these 2 cycles same go with the soak cycle as well.
 
About laundromat washers:

Who cares if they are going to clean or not? We neeed the cycle as fast as possible to be able to get the money and get the washer free for another wash asap.

About spinning.. well, most of the laundromats (at least here in the south america) sell 20 minutes drying coins. more coins needed to dry a load = more profit.

-------------------------------
When I said HEFL is a "new"technologi is because the machines are completelly different and can't be compared to those wonderful vintage FL washers.

As i told, the modern High Eficiency front loaders aren't the best and lots could be done to make them better. But, i don't believe they are a total disaster like some people say. In fact, it is possible to get excellent results, one only have to "relearn" how to do laundry to get the best of it. Also, the detergent manufacturers could improve their HE formulas to compensate the sinner's circle equation.

What happen if we toss so much clothes in a top loader that they can't move freely? poor wash and poor rinses, right? Why do that in a front loader? just because the agitator isn't there and to save a few cents?

When people stop trying to make a cow fit in a pinhole, detergents change and people don't try to wash super stained whites using a 30 minutes cycle, things will change a lot.

About the mold... People didn't realize how simple it is to avoid/get rid of this problem....
 
NYC Drying Laundromats

It's 25 cents for five to seven minutes on average. Years ago one used to find some rather generous laundromat owners that gave ten minutes for the same amount, but no more.

To add insult to injury, when energy costs went up several years ago mat owners began turning down the heat on their dryers, and raising the price or shortening time per quarter. So now it takes longer to dry items because you are using cooler temps.
 
Toggleswitch....

Luckily the laundromat I go to, the owner makes sure that the hot water is indeed that, hot. The hot water here at my apartment is at best lukewarm when on the hot setting. And it has it's own water heater. I know they probably turned it down for energy purposes, but it could be a little hotter than they have it set. I pay a quarter more to wash at the laundromat, but I also use a quarter less to dry. And it's right across the street so using gas to get there is nothing to worry about. I'd rather do that knowing my clothes are getting washed in hot water, or very warm when I use warm than on lukewarm to cold.

Laundress.....The front loaders at the laundromat I use are the Huebsch, which I believe are made by Speed Queen. It does say on the label inside the door on the doube loaders that the spin speed is only 480 rpm. So I feel ya there, I think it should be at the least 600. But the dryers there are so big and roomy, that I can dry a load from one of those washers in a dryer there in 21 minutes.
 
how washington dc ruined your washer

This article is so full of bulls;;t, the righter knows nothing about washers his only purpose is to rail against any goverment regulations. He is from [ the competitive enterprise institute ] after all which is a right wing think? tank. I am really disappointed that anyone from this group would even post this nonsense in a serious forum.
 
Combo;

This is about the third WSJ article in the last year about FL washer designs being driven by tax credits

Without the tax credits the washer designs would not chase silly standards and have a performance drop; the actual end user would VOTE with his pocketbook; by looking at a washers cost and water and electricity used.

It is the left that wants social engineering; steering purchases via mandates that distort the marketplace.

The same FL washer I bought last fall for 599 on sale would be around 850 without the tax kickback.

Many of us do want the governments constant meddling and distorting the markets, ie we find it revolting,

Look how contrived and confusing the IEC standards are that define washer size, then one has the distorted markets by 200 to 300 buck tax credits. Locally the government has 30 to 50K in tax credits so houses are being built with no buyers; while a gut of used ones are all over the place.
 

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