From the WSJ, read it while you can:
How Washington, DC Ruined Your Washing Machine
- Thread starter launderess
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What an eye opener!
The dumb down water temps on these new machine is the cause of all problems.
Let alone poor rinsing and longer wash times.
Where is the true savings in this hype?
Go green....., yeah right!
The dumb down water temps on these new machine is the cause of all problems.
Let alone poor rinsing and longer wash times.
Where is the true savings in this hype?
Go green....., yeah right!
pierreandreply4
Well-known member
front loader washers are bad clothe are ment to be agitated in water with an agitator witch lets the suds of the detergent get in the clothes not tumble in just a bit of water i have a duet washer from whirlpool thats dates from 2004 (1 gen of duet washers and if i have something to washe in eather the gentle delicate cycle or hand wash its skips to the first rinse with out removing the suds thats left on or in the fiber of the clothe not very good in my eyes.
Sad but true. The more I research the new washers, the more I appreciate my old deep fill Kenmore Elite top loader from 2002. It doesn't have an "energy star" anywhere on it, but it will get your clothes clean and to date has never needed a service call. And I'm afraid the story is similar with the new HE dishwashers.
Pierre, you refuse to understand front loading washer's approach to doing laundry. You simply cannot think about appproaching how to do laundry in an old way with new technology without poor results. Every front loader I've ever come across--european as well as modern ones, do not do spins between and after every wash & rinse for delicatre and hand washable fabrics. My Frigidaire doews not do any spins between rinses on my perm/press/wrinkle free cycle until right before the final rinse. I have no issues at all with what I consider poor rinsing, if I did, I'd be itching, and my clothes come out extrmely clean, better than my old Lady Shredmore. And my stuff is lasing longer with a front loader than with the GE Filter-flo or the Lady Shredmore.
I think the future of TL machines (roughly 1996 and older) could look a lot like the present day Cuba with regard to pre-1959 American cars, which are kept running as opposed to getting crushed through manufacture of replacement parts or adapting non-original components.
With all the boomer parent households currently being liquidated, there's no better time to snag a capable TL machine that was built not only to perform, but also to last. Before the rest of the country catches on.
With all the boomer parent households currently being liquidated, there's no better time to snag a capable TL machine that was built not only to perform, but also to last. Before the rest of the country catches on.
Out Of My Cold Dead Hands!
To quote the late Mr. Heston. *LOL*
Love my water hogs of washers, this includes the Hoover TT, and Whirlpool portable.
Much as one loves the Miele, some things need to be immersed totally in water for good washing results.
Case in point,started spring cleaning this week and that meant windows cleaned and curtains washed. Learned from several past experiences that filthy curtains simply do not come clean in the Miele, even at it's highest wash water level (woolens program).
In the past would have bunged the lot in my Hoover TT which does the job a treat, but this year used the Whirlpool top loader and it was grand. Two hot sudsy washes (with Ecolab high phosphate detergent), and two rinses later (not to mention all those spray rinses), my curtains were sparkling bright white again. No muss, no fuss, end of story.
The really sad thing is with the federal goverment offering so much on the table to make "energy saving" appliances, manufacturers would be fools to leave it on the table and go it alone. This means zero, zip, nada R&D much less production to come of high water use top , much less front loading washing machines. When Whirlpool can reduce it's tax bill on several hundred millions in profits to zero with tax breaks, you can forget seeing the old Maytag or any other brand they own back as "water hogs" anytime soon.
To quote the late Mr. Heston. *LOL*
Love my water hogs of washers, this includes the Hoover TT, and Whirlpool portable.
Much as one loves the Miele, some things need to be immersed totally in water for good washing results.
Case in point,started spring cleaning this week and that meant windows cleaned and curtains washed. Learned from several past experiences that filthy curtains simply do not come clean in the Miele, even at it's highest wash water level (woolens program).
In the past would have bunged the lot in my Hoover TT which does the job a treat, but this year used the Whirlpool top loader and it was grand. Two hot sudsy washes (with Ecolab high phosphate detergent), and two rinses later (not to mention all those spray rinses), my curtains were sparkling bright white again. No muss, no fuss, end of story.
The really sad thing is with the federal goverment offering so much on the table to make "energy saving" appliances, manufacturers would be fools to leave it on the table and go it alone. This means zero, zip, nada R&D much less production to come of high water use top , much less front loading washing machines. When Whirlpool can reduce it's tax bill on several hundred millions in profits to zero with tax breaks, you can forget seeing the old Maytag or any other brand they own back as "water hogs" anytime soon.
powerfin64
Well-known member
AMEN, Bob!
Very well said! I can't agree with you more on that statement!
Rich
Very well said! I can't agree with you more on that statement!
Rich
whirlcool
Well-known member
If you have a water hog you like, just fix it if it breaks. It'll still be better than anything else out there.
strongenough78
Well-known member
This doesn't surprise me in the least. That's why I'm hoping from being a part of this club, that I'll be able to keep an old washer running. I'm starting to not like anything new anymore.
golittlesport
Well-known member
some true points, but some misinformation also
I agree that today's new top loaders are not very good machines, especially with dumbed-down water temps. My 1955 Frigidaire Unimatic is a great TL - fun to watch and does a great job. I've also owned front loaders for 11 years and am pleased with the superior performance.
The writer states FLs are expensive, often have mold and you can't add a stray sock. I think he is stacking the deck to make his point. FL prices are dropping, I've seen new models with a heater and steam for under $700. That is not much more than top of the line TLs. (Those great TLs from the 50s and 60s our parents bought cost the equivalent of about $2,000 in today dollars.)
I think mold issues are 98% operator caused. I've never experienced mold or odors in my FL. And I've seen mold in TLs.
And we all know you can add a garment after the cycle starts in the FL.
I'm glad they still make TLs for folks that want them. But I wouldn't want one of these new ones.
I agree that today's new top loaders are not very good machines, especially with dumbed-down water temps. My 1955 Frigidaire Unimatic is a great TL - fun to watch and does a great job. I've also owned front loaders for 11 years and am pleased with the superior performance.
The writer states FLs are expensive, often have mold and you can't add a stray sock. I think he is stacking the deck to make his point. FL prices are dropping, I've seen new models with a heater and steam for under $700. That is not much more than top of the line TLs. (Those great TLs from the 50s and 60s our parents bought cost the equivalent of about $2,000 in today dollars.)
I think mold issues are 98% operator caused. I've never experienced mold or odors in my FL. And I've seen mold in TLs.
And we all know you can add a garment after the cycle starts in the FL.
I'm glad they still make TLs for folks that want them. But I wouldn't want one of these new ones.
YES,Get the Gov't out of our laundryrooms,kitchens,bathrooms,tool sheds,and homes-down with Dept of Energy-SHUT HER DOWN-think of the contribution to the easing of the budget by shutting down and elinminating all of these unneeded rules and regs-LET THE CUSTOMER decide what washer,dishwasher,potty, he wants to buy.Enough of this NONSENSE!!!Up with water hog washers,pottys,and dishwashers-they got the job done RIGHT!!I am the one paying to use them!!
I always had excellent results in my Frigidaire Affinity (1st version) HE front loader, it never had problems with mold or odors and my whites are really white.
the secret is NEVER overload it. the drum is huge, it doesn't mean I should toss all my wardrobe in it.
Of course it won't last as a vintage machine, but I still believe it was an excellent deal, specially because I got it for less than R$600 (almost U$300) as I was an active Electrolux employee when i bought it, a few months before my retirement.
I think the problems in the US are:
1) Detergent manufacturers didn't realize the formulas should be almost like the european ones. (at least the american HE detergents I have produce much more suds than the european ones)
2) Manufacturers should have never told the users to put liquid detergents in the drawer while the drawers weren't supposed to dispense this kind of detergent. If you're using liquids and your FL doesn't have a liquid dispenser, just toss it straight on the load.
3) Something that every european housewife knows: NEVER KEEP THE DOOR CLOSED WHEN THE WASHER ISN'T IN USE.
I've been using my machine with argentinian Skip (Unilever), which is exactly the same formula as in Europe (both liquid and powder versions), sometimes the argentinian ALAmatic, sometimes the brazilian Ariel Ecomax and now I'm also using the brazilian "Ariel with a touch of softener" liquid.
Every time i use any american detergent, i can see suds on the bottom of the glass and the rinsing is poor. I have to repeat the cycle and always use the extra rinse option to get a decent rinse (you know that old story, don't you?) The only time it didn't oversuds was when i did a full load of whites with Tide HE at the first line. it didn't make any suds but also didn't clean. while when i use other detergents i see the "white" water, but not even a single bubble. The first rinse drains almost clear and the second rinse drains clear. I don't even use the extra rinse option.
Only one american detergent (I have more than 10 different versions and brands) didn't oversuds using the right dose. It was Purex 3x1 laundry sheets, but I also didn't like the results.
Btw, water here is too soft and most of the brazilians never heard about hard water.
Now a question:
If both american and european FLs use almost the same amount of water, proportional to the size of the washer, how can the european machines clean and rinse ok and americans can't?
Is the machine so guilty as people say? Aren't there other factors that might change the final result?
Use and programs:
What I see in the US is most of the people running the shortest cycles (because the TLs were fast).
Come on. ask any european if they would use a 30 minute cycle to wash a full load of very dirty whites.
What you'll hear is: it won't clean, you must use the long cycle (+- 2 hours)
The american machines are huge to hold comforters (lots of air) and because americans have plenty of space in the laundry rooms and also love huge things (machines, cars, even detergent bottles and corn flakes boxes) but for CLOTHES like pants and t-shirts, the american machines can't hold much more laundry than the tiny european machines. My frigidaire Affinity is a 10kg capacity washer if compared to an euro 8kg machine.
Owners of American FLs, please make a test. fill the drum with clothes a little bit more than half (if they are too stained). run the sanitize or whites whites cycle using an european detergent (most of us have access to them) and after the cycle, check the results. even the worst machine will clean much better than a wintage whirlpool top loader's standard 14 minutes wash.
Now repeat the test using any american HE detergent... OOOps, it didn't clean as well and didn't rinse ok.
Throw the first rock who never paused a standard vintage TL to let the heavy stained clothes soak for 1 or 2 hours or used some soap bar and elbow grease to release some stains. (soaking plus the cycle = 2 hours or more)
Modern HE FLs could and should be much better, they aren't the best and europe is decades ahead the U.S about Fls, but the american Fls aren't the only villains too.
Detergent manufacturers and consumer habits should change too.
The machines are changing, the new generation of HEFLs is much better than the first one, but detergents didn't change as fast and consumers didn't change too much.
The confirmation of that are thousands of american consumers that love their HEFLs and thousands that hate them. If we check carefully, most of the people that hate HEFLs didn't adapt the laundry habits to the "new" technology.
HEFLs use much less electricity so, even running a 2 hour cycle they spend less energy than a vintage TL 30 or 40 minute cycle. and they might spend even less than some european cold fill machines because the heating element won't need to be used so long.
It's very easy to say "it didn't clean, this machine sucks" but... what about the other parameters? Why not try something different like other detergents and other cycles? Think about that, friends, before blaming only the washers.
And always remember, HEFLs are much different from the vintage american FLs.
the secret is NEVER overload it. the drum is huge, it doesn't mean I should toss all my wardrobe in it.
Of course it won't last as a vintage machine, but I still believe it was an excellent deal, specially because I got it for less than R$600 (almost U$300) as I was an active Electrolux employee when i bought it, a few months before my retirement.
I think the problems in the US are:
1) Detergent manufacturers didn't realize the formulas should be almost like the european ones. (at least the american HE detergents I have produce much more suds than the european ones)
2) Manufacturers should have never told the users to put liquid detergents in the drawer while the drawers weren't supposed to dispense this kind of detergent. If you're using liquids and your FL doesn't have a liquid dispenser, just toss it straight on the load.
3) Something that every european housewife knows: NEVER KEEP THE DOOR CLOSED WHEN THE WASHER ISN'T IN USE.
I've been using my machine with argentinian Skip (Unilever), which is exactly the same formula as in Europe (both liquid and powder versions), sometimes the argentinian ALAmatic, sometimes the brazilian Ariel Ecomax and now I'm also using the brazilian "Ariel with a touch of softener" liquid.
Every time i use any american detergent, i can see suds on the bottom of the glass and the rinsing is poor. I have to repeat the cycle and always use the extra rinse option to get a decent rinse (you know that old story, don't you?) The only time it didn't oversuds was when i did a full load of whites with Tide HE at the first line. it didn't make any suds but also didn't clean. while when i use other detergents i see the "white" water, but not even a single bubble. The first rinse drains almost clear and the second rinse drains clear. I don't even use the extra rinse option.
Only one american detergent (I have more than 10 different versions and brands) didn't oversuds using the right dose. It was Purex 3x1 laundry sheets, but I also didn't like the results.
Btw, water here is too soft and most of the brazilians never heard about hard water.
Now a question:
If both american and european FLs use almost the same amount of water, proportional to the size of the washer, how can the european machines clean and rinse ok and americans can't?
Is the machine so guilty as people say? Aren't there other factors that might change the final result?
Use and programs:
What I see in the US is most of the people running the shortest cycles (because the TLs were fast).
Come on. ask any european if they would use a 30 minute cycle to wash a full load of very dirty whites.
What you'll hear is: it won't clean, you must use the long cycle (+- 2 hours)
The american machines are huge to hold comforters (lots of air) and because americans have plenty of space in the laundry rooms and also love huge things (machines, cars, even detergent bottles and corn flakes boxes) but for CLOTHES like pants and t-shirts, the american machines can't hold much more laundry than the tiny european machines. My frigidaire Affinity is a 10kg capacity washer if compared to an euro 8kg machine.
Owners of American FLs, please make a test. fill the drum with clothes a little bit more than half (if they are too stained). run the sanitize or whites whites cycle using an european detergent (most of us have access to them) and after the cycle, check the results. even the worst machine will clean much better than a wintage whirlpool top loader's standard 14 minutes wash.
Now repeat the test using any american HE detergent... OOOps, it didn't clean as well and didn't rinse ok.
Throw the first rock who never paused a standard vintage TL to let the heavy stained clothes soak for 1 or 2 hours or used some soap bar and elbow grease to release some stains. (soaking plus the cycle = 2 hours or more)
Modern HE FLs could and should be much better, they aren't the best and europe is decades ahead the U.S about Fls, but the american Fls aren't the only villains too.
Detergent manufacturers and consumer habits should change too.
The machines are changing, the new generation of HEFLs is much better than the first one, but detergents didn't change as fast and consumers didn't change too much.
The confirmation of that are thousands of american consumers that love their HEFLs and thousands that hate them. If we check carefully, most of the people that hate HEFLs didn't adapt the laundry habits to the "new" technology.
HEFLs use much less electricity so, even running a 2 hour cycle they spend less energy than a vintage TL 30 or 40 minute cycle. and they might spend even less than some european cold fill machines because the heating element won't need to be used so long.
It's very easy to say "it didn't clean, this machine sucks" but... what about the other parameters? Why not try something different like other detergents and other cycles? Think about that, friends, before blaming only the washers.
And always remember, HEFLs are much different from the vintage american FLs.
Over here in Oz Consumer Report assessments of top and front loaders do not make such sweeping statements. Their statistics show that all types of machines fall within a 30% range from approx. 58% to 88% for cleaning performance. The vast majority of top and front loaders fit within the 75% to 88% range. Not one machine rates 90% or better. Rinsing still rates higher with many top loaders than most front loaders.
At my work we use both top and front loaders. The two front loaders are brand new Speed Queen washer/dryer stacks. These are commercial machines as would be used in a laundromat. They come with four cycles - heavy, normal, perma press and delicate. The longest cycle from start to finish is 29 minutes the other three run from 25 to 23 minutes respectively. They draw hot and cold water, but I don't believe these machines have a heater. Also, when the heavy cycle is selected the hot water is still mixed with cold. They don't give a true hot wash. We use Eltra detergent, which is supposedly hospital grade stuff.
The cycles on the Speed Queens are ridiculously short. In order to remove smells, stains and residual detergent, clothes have to be put through one or two additional cycles. They are supposed to spin at 1000 rpm, but the clothes don't feel much dryer than when they come out of the Maytag TLs. The Speed Queen stacked dryers allow a maximum of 45 minutes for all drying cycles. With regular mixed loads that isn't long enough either, regardless of whether they were washed in the front or top loaders. These are not domestic machines and the focus is clearly on time, water and energy efficiency, but their performance sucks.
Our older top loaders do a much better job at cleaning and rinsing hands down, first time around. None of the staff like using the new front loaders for that reason. Though, they have proven useful with duvets and pillows. If I could somehow reprogram the Speed Queens to lengthen the cycle times, maybe we'd get better results. When I get my hands on the specs and key to open the control panels I'll check out what can be done.
At my work we use both top and front loaders. The two front loaders are brand new Speed Queen washer/dryer stacks. These are commercial machines as would be used in a laundromat. They come with four cycles - heavy, normal, perma press and delicate. The longest cycle from start to finish is 29 minutes the other three run from 25 to 23 minutes respectively. They draw hot and cold water, but I don't believe these machines have a heater. Also, when the heavy cycle is selected the hot water is still mixed with cold. They don't give a true hot wash. We use Eltra detergent, which is supposedly hospital grade stuff.
The cycles on the Speed Queens are ridiculously short. In order to remove smells, stains and residual detergent, clothes have to be put through one or two additional cycles. They are supposed to spin at 1000 rpm, but the clothes don't feel much dryer than when they come out of the Maytag TLs. The Speed Queen stacked dryers allow a maximum of 45 minutes for all drying cycles. With regular mixed loads that isn't long enough either, regardless of whether they were washed in the front or top loaders. These are not domestic machines and the focus is clearly on time, water and energy efficiency, but their performance sucks.
Our older top loaders do a much better job at cleaning and rinsing hands down, first time around. None of the staff like using the new front loaders for that reason. Though, they have proven useful with duvets and pillows. If I could somehow reprogram the Speed Queens to lengthen the cycle times, maybe we'd get better results. When I get my hands on the specs and key to open the control panels I'll check out what can be done.
Our Local Laundrette Has Those SQ Washers As Well
Thing to keep in mind is they are designed for the US market where chlorine bleach rules. If you aren't using the stuff, then yes you are going to have to find some work arounds. Detergents designed for long "Euro" type frontloaders with long wash cycles do not have enough time to get up to speed.
As for "hot" fills, yes the same thing happens here. Was told by the attendent that since the water supply comes from the same boilers as what supply the large apartment building above,water must be "tempered". What a load of flannel.
Really only use the place anymore for loads that are too large for the Miele, and or would require all day to get sorted. Otherwise don't bother, as the thought just puts me off.
You might wish to nip around Alliance/SQ's website (with the model number of your washer), to see what can be found in terms of adjusting the washer's fill.
Thing to keep in mind is they are designed for the US market where chlorine bleach rules. If you aren't using the stuff, then yes you are going to have to find some work arounds. Detergents designed for long "Euro" type frontloaders with long wash cycles do not have enough time to get up to speed.
As for "hot" fills, yes the same thing happens here. Was told by the attendent that since the water supply comes from the same boilers as what supply the large apartment building above,water must be "tempered". What a load of flannel.
Really only use the place anymore for loads that are too large for the Miele, and or would require all day to get sorted. Otherwise don't bother, as the thought just puts me off.
You might wish to nip around Alliance/SQ's website (with the model number of your washer), to see what can be found in terms of adjusting the washer's fill.
The fill is actually okay, at least for the wash part of the
There are only two rinse fills that I've observed, which stays below the rubber boot and there is an awful lot of spinning going on. Right after the wash part of the cycle the machine empties and begins to spin slowly. At that point there is a short spray of fresh water that enters the the tub from the top of the boot, then it goes straight to the first rinse fill. I wouldn't mind more water for the rinse cycle and will have a look at that too.
Chlorine bleach is widely used over here as well. Though, this is at my work and bleach is not allowed because of fumes and possible skin contact. That's why we use Eltra, which is a commercial grade, anti-bacterial detergent made in the USA. It is formulated for use in both types of machines and cleans well in the top loaders, but doesn't do jack in our front loaders. I guess as long as the germs are dead, who cares about spots and stains.
We only wash out residents' personal garments. Sheets and towels are supplied by us and laundered through a big commercial place. They clearly use lots of bleach in their machines. I've had towels and sheets come back with bleach burns and often find stuff that doesn't even belong to us.
There are only two rinse fills that I've observed, which stays below the rubber boot and there is an awful lot of spinning going on. Right after the wash part of the cycle the machine empties and begins to spin slowly. At that point there is a short spray of fresh water that enters the the tub from the top of the boot, then it goes straight to the first rinse fill. I wouldn't mind more water for the rinse cycle and will have a look at that too.
Chlorine bleach is widely used over here as well. Though, this is at my work and bleach is not allowed because of fumes and possible skin contact. That's why we use Eltra, which is a commercial grade, anti-bacterial detergent made in the USA. It is formulated for use in both types of machines and cleans well in the top loaders, but doesn't do jack in our front loaders. I guess as long as the germs are dead, who cares about spots and stains.
We only wash out residents' personal garments. Sheets and towels are supplied by us and laundered through a big commercial place. They clearly use lots of bleach in their machines. I've had towels and sheets come back with bleach burns and often find stuff that doesn't even belong to us.
mrb627
Well-known member
Marketing
Another part of the problem is the marketing of these front load machines. Fill it to the max and only use a teaspoon of detergent. That's what you hear from the salesperson when looking at an expensive washer. Its a recipe for disaster!
Malcolm
Another part of the problem is the marketing of these front load machines. Fill it to the max and only use a teaspoon of detergent. That's what you hear from the salesperson when looking at an expensive washer. Its a recipe for disaster!
Malcolm
Fill it to the max and only use a teaspoon of detergent
Not only that, but a lot of folk out there simply don't care. It is machine washing dumbed down to the lowest common denominator with a focus on everything else, but clean, well-rinsed clothes. This is what we get when we blindly believe the marketing spin. I do care for the environment, but good hygiene isn't an eco option, it's about using soap and water until the dirt is gone.
Not only that, but a lot of folk out there simply don't care. It is machine washing dumbed down to the lowest common denominator with a focus on everything else, but clean, well-rinsed clothes. This is what we get when we blindly believe the marketing spin. I do care for the environment, but good hygiene isn't an eco option, it's about using soap and water until the dirt is gone.
seeitrun2006
Well-known member
Love my front loader
We have been using a Whirlpool Duet HT since November 2007. I agree with Appnut! The FL is much easier on our clothes and yes they are lastig longer. I do however agree with Malcom in how the FL are advertised. You cannot pack it to the gills and expect everything to come out cleam. My rule of thumb is I load my FL 3/4 of the way to the top of the tube. I also use GOOD HE detergent.
Rinsing has never been an issue! My wife has allergies to various detergents. So far she has not had one episode of breaking out and itching since we purchased the FL.
Also with the FL I'm pumping in 48+ gallons of water into my septic after each load of laundry. The max my FL uses is 22 gallons.
We have been using a Whirlpool Duet HT since November 2007. I agree with Appnut! The FL is much easier on our clothes and yes they are lastig longer. I do however agree with Malcom in how the FL are advertised. You cannot pack it to the gills and expect everything to come out cleam. My rule of thumb is I load my FL 3/4 of the way to the top of the tube. I also use GOOD HE detergent.
Rinsing has never been an issue! My wife has allergies to various detergents. So far she has not had one episode of breaking out and itching since we purchased the FL.
Also with the FL I'm pumping in 48+ gallons of water into my septic after each load of laundry. The max my FL uses is 22 gallons.
