How Washington, DC Ruined Your Washing Machine

[seeitrun2006]

My error

I ment to say when we had a TL (Maytag 512A) it PUMPED 48+ gallons of water into my septic tank (we're not on city sewage) versus 22+ gallons from my FL. We got the FL after we got rid of the Maytag after it went belly up. Didn't know about AWO at the time.

 

[3beltwesty]

FEDERAL and STATE tax credits exceed the washers profit

Many Washers sold in the USA are DESIGNED PURPOSELY to get that sweet tax credit kick back if the water usage is real small.

Thus the PRIMARY design goal is to get that tax credit instead of top performance.

WSJ LINK:

"Whirlpool has stockpiled more than $500 million in tax credits for making energy-saving "energy star" appliances—washers, dryers, refrigerators and so on. The firm gets a production tax credit of up to $200 per refrigerator, $75 per dishwasher, and $225 per washer and dryer. General Electric has also collected about $200 million of these credits. "

"These appliance credits are in addition to $300 million the feds gave to states as part of the 2009 stimulus to pay rebates to consumers for buying these same goods. So there's one subsidy to make the machines and another to buy them. The Department of Energy says these appliances save families money by reducing energy use by more than half. If that's true, why does the government have to bribe people to make these purchases? "

Thus summer of 2009 washer a sold here gave the washer maker 225 dollars in federal tax credits and often 100 dollars in some state's tax credits funded by the feds.

A 325 dollar tax credit makes that FL washer on sale be just 550 bucks.

If an existing set of FL washer mechanics can be tweaked in software to use 10 percent less water to grab that tax credit, the USA washer marketing group will over ride performance.

The same thing happens with cars and trucks, if the maker can modify the engine PROM to make the car's official mileage sticker be 32 instead of 31 MPG; the change is done and the care makers corporate fleet average goes higher.

The USA's usage of FL washers goes back to about 1940.

Here my family got a Westy FL washer in 1947 and 1976, and I got a front load LG last fall in 2010.

It is totally ignorant to say the USA is new to front loaders. It is like saying one has never heard of WW2 or a B17 bomber.

America used FL washers for 50 years with ZERO mold issues, or stupid cleaning of boots with bleach, or smell issues. About 1 to 2 percent of us used FL washers here before the USA got botched government steered FL designs.

American Newcomers to FL washers, ie folks who first got one after say 1992 about all blame the soaps, water temp, instead of a radically less robust design.

Government dictated plans distort what folks want.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704506004576174321393436988.html

 

[bajaespuma]

What Bob said.

My two cents:

 

<ul>
<li>I'm 54 years old and I've seen the good that the EPA regulations have done for the country's environment within the span of my lifetime. Yes, I'd rather see the government get MUCH tougher on corporations and industry polluters, but face it, we consumers outnumber them by some astonishing number. Using less water, less carbon and producing less waste are good practices, even if they ruin a little bit of our fun.</li>
<li>I LOVE vintage top loaders. I LOVE using them once in a while for fun. Since I lived in Europe in the late Seventies and saw how their washers (mosty Mieles) worked, you cannot convince me that any American made machine can or could match them in performance, washing, rinsing or spinning. I don't know about new American FL's; I have NO DOUBT that the greedy sh*ts that are in charge of manufacturing them can't find a way to render them ineffective or unreliable to realize a greater profit for their stockholders and to build their useless wives another walk-in shoe closet.</li>
<li>I have an LG front loader and I use it all the time because nothing else does a better job or is easier to use.</li>
<li>Face it, this is what I tell my students about food and cooking in America: the vast majority of Americans don't give a damn about their laundry, if it went into the washer and then into the dryer, as far as they're concerned the job is done. Do you think 99% of Americans can tell whether the detergent residue has been rinsed out of their clothes???? Do you think they would care???? Some might care if the fabric softener left their clothes smelling funky but that is even doubtful. I had a friend in high school who smelled of Wisk (remember that smell?) all day long because, I must assume, her mother used that product and continued to use way too much of it until we graduated. No one cares about laundry anymore. My Grandmother cared, and told us about soaking clothes in lukewarm milk and squeezing lemon juice into the rinse cycle to remove the soap and freshen the clothes, but that is only because she was a full-time housewife who was never given the opportunity to run Wall Street as she should have. Remember, we live in a country full of people that give their children Pop-Tarts for breakfast and think they're giving them good nutrition. </li>
<li>We are a select small group who have, hallelujah, found each other and enjoy community over these issues. Hate to be the cold wet dishrag of reality but nobody else cares about this. Americans have been buying crappy washing machines for four decades and will continue to do so. I can't count how many people have asked me what appliance to buy, when they find out I know about this stuff, and then go  and buy whatever piece of crap the salesman directs them to. </li>
</ul>

 

[toggleswitch]

What a load of flannel.

OH I AGREE. WHAT A LOAD OF DIRT THAT IS!

Quote: As for "hot" fills, yes the same thing happens here. Was told by the attendent that since the water supply comes from the same boilers as what supply the large apartment building above,water must be "tempered".

Unless the laundry room is within the apartment buildng itself (i.e. for residential tenants' use) and/or building-owner operated, it is RARE to have a commercial laundry establishment not have its own hot-water supply. If nothing else, one wants to meter the charges for usage to the owner of the BUSINESS (laundromant/tenant) not the owner of the BUILDING (landlord).

Personally I want a Euro boil-washer and Euro electric condenser dryer, and a good old-fashioned.....er make that "Classic"... TOL Maytag top-loading washer and gas, vented dryer. With those four appliances I can have the best of perfomance, efficency, speed and capacity, and "green".

Let's just say I am coveting a certain set of UK MaytAskos posted here occasionally!

In Puerto Rico (a tropical climate) a public laundromat I had used actually had a "Y" connector in the rear feeding tap-temperature water to both the "Hot" and Cold" inlets. One got "WARM" water at all times of the day; hotter when it was hot out. Not a sign to this effect anywhere. VOILA no hot-water expense!

 

[launderess]

Another Thing About Those SQ Laundromat Front Loaders

What is up with the pitiful final extraction? Huh? Hmm? Huh?

Swear items taken out of one of those machines are near dripping wet, certainly no where near is dry with the Miele (even at 900 rpms), nor even the Whirlpool portable for that matter.

Suppose the idea is to bake one's laundry dry in those uber heated laundromat dryers. However if there is any sort of detergent and or soil residue on the laundry you are also cooking it into the textiles as well. No wonder so many persons who use laundromats only for their washing have tattle-tale grey wash.

 

[pierreandreply4]

just a fact about newer front loaders

i just went to add a fact about newer front loaders today say you have a stain shirt that needs to be wash in hot water on the delicate or hand wash cycle you will notice for a fact that the hot water temp option is not possible with these 2 cycles same go with the soak cycle as well.

 

[thomasortega]

About laundromat washers:

Who cares if they are going to clean or not? We neeed the cycle as fast as possible to be able to get the money and get the washer free for another wash asap.

About spinning.. well, most of the laundromats (at least here in the south america) sell 20 minutes drying coins. more coins needed to dry a load = more profit.

-------------------------------
When I said HEFL is a "new"technologi is because the machines are completelly different and can't be compared to those wonderful vintage FL washers.

As i told, the modern High Eficiency front loaders aren't the best and lots could be done to make them better. But, i don't believe they are a total disaster like some people say. In fact, it is possible to get excellent results, one only have to "relearn" how to do laundry to get the best of it. Also, the detergent manufacturers could improve their HE formulas to compensate the sinner's circle equation.

What happen if we toss so much clothes in a top loader that they can't move freely? poor wash and poor rinses, right? Why do that in a front loader? just because the agitator isn't there and to save a few cents?

When people stop trying to make a cow fit in a pinhole, detergents change and people don't try to wash super stained whites using a 30 minutes cycle, things will change a lot.

About the mold... People didn't realize how simple it is to avoid/get rid of this problem....

 

[launderess]

NYC Drying Laundromats

It's 25 cents for five to seven minutes on average. Years ago one used to find some rather generous laundromat owners that gave ten minutes for the same amount, but no more.

To add insult to injury, when energy costs went up several years ago mat owners began turning down the heat on their dryers, and raising the price or shortening time per quarter. So now it takes longer to dry items because you are using cooler temps.

 

[strongenough78]

Toggleswitch....

Luckily the laundromat I go to, the owner makes sure that the hot water is indeed that, hot. The hot water here at my apartment is at best lukewarm when on the hot setting. And it has it's own water heater. I know they probably turned it down for energy purposes, but it could be a little hotter than they have it set. I pay a quarter more to wash at the laundromat, but I also use a quarter less to dry. And it's right across the street so using gas to get there is nothing to worry about. I'd rather do that knowing my clothes are getting washed in hot water, or very warm when I use warm than on lukewarm to cold.

Laundress.....The front loaders at the laundromat I use are the Huebsch, which I believe are made by Speed Queen. It does say on the label inside the door on the doube loaders that the spin speed is only 480 rpm. So I feel ya there, I think it should be at the least 600. But the dryers there are so big and roomy, that I can dry a load from one of those washers in a dryer there in 21 minutes.

 

[combo52]

how washington dc ruined your washer

This article is so full of bulls;;t, the righter knows nothing about washers his only purpose is to rail against any goverment regulations. He is from [ the competitive enterprise institute ] after all which is a right wing think? tank. I am really disappointed that anyone from this group would even post this nonsense in a serious forum.

 

[3beltwesty]

Combo;

This is about the third WSJ article in the last year about FL washer designs being driven by tax credits

Without the tax credits the washer designs would not chase silly standards and have a performance drop; the actual end user would VOTE with his pocketbook; by looking at a washers cost and water and electricity used.

It is the left that wants social engineering; steering purchases via mandates that distort the marketplace.

The same FL washer I bought last fall for 599 on sale would be around 850 without the tax kickback.

Many of us do want the governments constant meddling and distorting the markets, ie we find it revolting,

Look how contrived and confusing the IEC standards are that define washer size, then one has the distorted markets by 200 to 300 buck tax credits. Locally the government has 30 to 50K in tax credits so houses are being built with no buyers; while a gut of used ones are all over the place.

 

[powerfin64]

Hot water and delicate or hand wash for a stain?

Pierre, your completely missing the point of this thread.

 

[launderess]

Hot Water & "Hand Wash" or "Delicate" For St

Am going out on a limb to guess the man meant using hot or even boiling water washes in a front loader with minimal drum movement, but high water levels.

My Miele will do near to 200F (not sure what the temp cut off is), on both permanent press and delicate cycles.

There are times such as when trying to whiten/brighten and or remove stubborn stains using oxygen bleach that one will require hot/uber-hot water, but you also want the delicate action of minimal tumbling and high water levels. The high water level serves two functions, it gives items room to move about thus cushioning the wash action even further. Also for the case of pure linen which absorbs lots of water you want them to have it.

The whole process is rather like a soaking items clean. Indeed the only difference between the extened pre-wash and delicate cycles on my Miele are the water levels, max temp allowed, and that one (delicate) will continue onto the rinses versus simply stopping after cycle is complete.

 

[hoover1100]

Everything in that article

Is an absolute load of B.S. and is clearly written by a ranting right wing idiot who has no grasp on washing machine technology whatsoever.

I've dealt with some pretty disgusting clothes in my time, and NEVER, has my modern, low water usage, energy efficient front loading machine NOT got them clean!

The only people who have any of the problems addressed are those who have no clue how to use a washing machine, and have no intention of trying to find out how to.

Some people seriously need to get their heads around the fact that the Government is not forcing anyone to do anything, simply offering incentives for people and businesses to be more conscious of the environment. (as they need to if we are going to get anywhere near solving this problem)

Laundromat machines (top or front loading) don't get clothes clean, because they are desgined to maximise profit for the owner, whereas domestic machines maximise performance, since the owner is not making a profit by using it.

The comments above about the 'fact' clothes needing to be immersed in water and agitated to come clean did make me laugh, also, if clothing needs to be washed on the delicate cycle, I highly doubt it would be able to withstand hot water anyway!

All in all, absolute nonsense!

Matt

 

[3beltwesty]

Matt;

The design of washers here in the USA is steered to grab that tax 225 buck plus credit.

If you think this market distortion is so swell an idea; how come Europe does not follow this great idea?

Heck; it would only take some software tweaks to ruin your washers good performance!

If Europe is really serious, then vote in giant tax breaks on products that meet thrifty water goals. If some washers then wash not as good; then blame the user and not the detuned washer.

Laundromats here often wash well; but the machines use more water since many are not under the same tax break distortion for home washer sales.

Laundromat machines here are often higher performance than a home machine; they do not screw around wasting time like a modern FL home machine does. This is because design criteria for a home machine is to grab that tax credit; the design criteria of a laundromat machine is to wash well in a timely basis.

 

[mark_wpduet]

As long as any FL washer is AS good as my 2005 Duet, I'll be happy. The thing that concerns me is when the Duet goes, they may use no water at all.

 

[hoover1100]

Heck; it would only take some software tweaks to ruin your

It appears to me that your new, modern, energy efficient machines in the U.S. wash as well, if not better than older machines, just like here. It's only when they aren't used correctly that they don't perform to their full potential.

Our machines use the same amount of (more than likely less) water and energy than your new front loaders do.

That's why the vast majority of people on here in the U.S. who own them agree...

Our Governments encouraged manufacturers to improve their technology to produce better, more efficient machines by requiring them to have an 'energy label', which scored machines A-G based on how efficient they are, how efficiently they wash, and how efficiently they extract water, naming and shaming the machines using outdated, inefficient technology.

Consumers avoided machines that scored poorly like the plague, therefore within a few years there were ONLY 'A' rated machines on the market here.

Thanks to the energy label scheme, all the machines on our market (bar the top loaders Whirlpool and Maytag sell) are far more efficient, and wash a lot better than machines of years gone by.

Therefore, there is no need for tax breaks on energy efficient machines, people here wouldn't buy anything else...

Matt[this post was last edited: 3/19/2011-20:08]