Well I think it's been a fair trade-off. Consumers are being nickled and dimed in some respects (charges for 411 directory assistance, operator assistance, etc). On the other hand, we're paying a flat fee of $30/mo. for unlimited nationwide long distance calling; back then it would have cost at least ten times as much.
How Will You Be Keeping Warm This Winter...........
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toggleswitch2
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Do one thing, but do it well.............
Deregulating oligopolies and monopolies is a mistake. They are formed that was for a reason. And the reason is that is the most efficient way (overall) to do business.
If you want competition don't let mergers happen and tighten what is considered an illlegal constraint of trade.
Deregulation only works when the donward slope of demand and the upward slope of supply are fully free to adjust themselves and properly reach equlibrium.
Telephone companies and banks (amoung others) got rid of those words in their name so that they could define themselves differenly and do more things............
Deregulating oligopolies and monopolies is a mistake. They are formed that was for a reason. And the reason is that is the most efficient way (overall) to do business.
If you want competition don't let mergers happen and tighten what is considered an illlegal constraint of trade.
Deregulation only works when the donward slope of demand and the upward slope of supply are fully free to adjust themselves and properly reach equlibrium.
Telephone companies and banks (amoung others) got rid of those words in their name so that they could define themselves differenly and do more things............
turboace
Well-known member
No natural gas here...
We live in the country, houses are about 1/2 to 1 mile away from each other. We also had to blast for our foundation, the ground is full of rock and boulders, making putting in the lines nearly impossible.
We have a 1000 gallon burried propane (LP, liquified petroleum) gas tank in the yard that a truck comes and fills up. This year it looks like were going to pay between 2.49 to 2.69 per gallon of LP gas. Last winter we used about 2500 gallons to heat the house. Under pressue the propane is liquid. As soon as you open a "tap" up to ambient pressure, the liquid gas in the tank "boils" and produces vapors. It is these vapors that pass thru the piping within our house to all our appliances. We heat our water, fuel our stove and clothes dryer and heat the house with the propane. For heating we have two forced air furnaces, one in the basement that serves the basement and the first floor and the other in the attic which serves the second floor. One downfall of propane is that it has less BTU's per given volume than natural gas does. To compensate, the orifice must be changed in appliances to accomodate LP vs. Natural gas. Since the orifice is bigger, you get a bigger, stronger flame. The first time I dried a load of clothes in our LG Gas dryer, it sounded like a jet plane taking off in our laundry room. So much so in fact, that I actually called LG to come out and check the dryer. The service tech told me that LP is just louder than natural gas.
We live in the country, houses are about 1/2 to 1 mile away from each other. We also had to blast for our foundation, the ground is full of rock and boulders, making putting in the lines nearly impossible.
We have a 1000 gallon burried propane (LP, liquified petroleum) gas tank in the yard that a truck comes and fills up. This year it looks like were going to pay between 2.49 to 2.69 per gallon of LP gas. Last winter we used about 2500 gallons to heat the house. Under pressue the propane is liquid. As soon as you open a "tap" up to ambient pressure, the liquid gas in the tank "boils" and produces vapors. It is these vapors that pass thru the piping within our house to all our appliances. We heat our water, fuel our stove and clothes dryer and heat the house with the propane. For heating we have two forced air furnaces, one in the basement that serves the basement and the first floor and the other in the attic which serves the second floor. One downfall of propane is that it has less BTU's per given volume than natural gas does. To compensate, the orifice must be changed in appliances to accomodate LP vs. Natural gas. Since the orifice is bigger, you get a bigger, stronger flame. The first time I dried a load of clothes in our LG Gas dryer, it sounded like a jet plane taking off in our laundry room. So much so in fact, that I actually called LG to come out and check the dryer. The service tech told me that LP is just louder than natural gas.
It's interesting to note you said that propane gives less BTUs than natural gas. The stand by generator that we have can run on either natural gas or propane. Ours runs on propane because there is no natural gas where we live. The literature that came with the generator says that running on propane the generator will produce 16 kw of power but running on natural gas it produces 15 kw ie. running on propane produces slightly more power
Gary
Gary
toggleswitch2
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OOOPSIE our mistake means your house could have burned down!
My sister has a huge propane tank for her cooking, heating hot water and cltohes drying needs. Her gas dryer was not properly adjusted for propane gas (i.e. it was set for natural gas). The thing was short-cycling its heating ("flame-on") cycle and a great deal of light was coming out of the dryer. Light is not good; means lotsa carbon and incoplete combustion. Sears came and fixed it. The flame was much larger than it was supposed to be!
Well the heat is finally "ON" in my apartment. It was 64*F (18*C)when I got home from a weekend away. So it apears there was no heat during the day. BRRRRRRR!!!!
The heat came up with a vengeance at midnight. (Methinks the clock is 6 to 12 hours our-of-synch. with regard to AM and PM).
Two radiators have leaking/defective air-vent valves, that do not keep the steam in, but rather let it go into the room. The sound of out-rushinng steam was a bit annoying as one tried to sleep!
My sister has a huge propane tank for her cooking, heating hot water and cltohes drying needs. Her gas dryer was not properly adjusted for propane gas (i.e. it was set for natural gas). The thing was short-cycling its heating ("flame-on") cycle and a great deal of light was coming out of the dryer. Light is not good; means lotsa carbon and incoplete combustion. Sears came and fixed it. The flame was much larger than it was supposed to be!
Well the heat is finally "ON" in my apartment. It was 64*F (18*C)when I got home from a weekend away. So it apears there was no heat during the day. BRRRRRRR!!!!
The heat came up with a vengeance at midnight. (Methinks the clock is 6 to 12 hours our-of-synch. with regard to AM and PM).
Two radiators have leaking/defective air-vent valves, that do not keep the steam in, but rather let it go into the room. The sound of out-rushinng steam was a bit annoying as one tried to sleep!
toggleswitch2
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The sounds of steam heat are acutally usually very comforting!
Another defecitve leaking valve!
Another defecitve leaking valve!
toggleswitch2
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So off we (The royal "we") go to Homo Depot for a hardware run! LOL
Safety Alert!!!
Toggles,
There was a safety recall on that model Vornado (I have the same one). Some had internal connectors that could short out and cause a fire.
You should not use it, but call Vornado and see if the serial number is one of those affected by the recall. Vornado will repair or replace the heater for free.
Toggles,
There was a safety recall on that model Vornado (I have the same one). Some had internal connectors that could short out and cause a fire.
You should not use it, but call Vornado and see if the serial number is one of those affected by the recall. Vornado will repair or replace the heater for free.
toggleswitch2
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Thanks.
It was relegated to the garbage since I went to clean it and saw the burnt wires, and bent heating element.
It was relegated to the garbage since I went to clean it and saw the burnt wires, and bent heating element.
Actually, propane gives more BTU's than natural gas for the same volume/pressure gas.
Natural gas is mostly methane, which is of the formula C2H6. Propane has an extra carbon, in the formula C3H8. The extra carbon means that propane has that much extra fuel per molecule - and gas pressure is based on the number of molecules, not on the size of the molecules.
This is why burner jets for appliances that burn propane are much smaller than the jets for same appliances set up to burn natural gas.
Of course the utility/gas companies compensate for the extra energy of propane by charging that much more for it. And then some, since it usually has to be delivered by truck and stored in special tanks, which is more expensive in the long run than just piping natural gas to your home. Also propane as I understand it is usually a by product of oil refining and therefore more sensitive to the price of oil, whilst natural gas is produced mostly domestically and less likely to vary in price in response to international events/markets.
Natural gas is mostly methane, which is of the formula C2H6. Propane has an extra carbon, in the formula C3H8. The extra carbon means that propane has that much extra fuel per molecule - and gas pressure is based on the number of molecules, not on the size of the molecules.
This is why burner jets for appliances that burn propane are much smaller than the jets for same appliances set up to burn natural gas.
Of course the utility/gas companies compensate for the extra energy of propane by charging that much more for it. And then some, since it usually has to be delivered by truck and stored in special tanks, which is more expensive in the long run than just piping natural gas to your home. Also propane as I understand it is usually a by product of oil refining and therefore more sensitive to the price of oil, whilst natural gas is produced mostly domestically and less likely to vary in price in response to international events/markets.
Too bad, Toggs.
You probably could have returned the burnt out Vornado and gotten a new one from the company - which would have been relieved it didn't cause a dwelling conflagration.
You probably could have returned the burnt out Vornado and gotten a new one from the company - which would have been relieved it didn't cause a dwelling conflagration.
toggleswitch2
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HMMM
I thought it was
Methane CH4
Ethane C2H6
Propane C3H8
Butane C4H10
Pentane C5H12
Hexane C6H14
Heptane C7H16
Octane C8H18
Where "X" is the appropriate nubmer of Hydrogens.
I thought it was
Methane CH4
Ethane C2H6
Propane C3H8
Butane C4H10
Pentane C5H12
Hexane C6H14
Heptane C7H16
Octane C8H18
Where "X" is the appropriate nubmer of Hydrogens.
Oops, right, methane has but one carbon atom, CH4. Ethane would be C2H6.
I must have ethanol on the brain today ;-)
(C202H6)
Anyway, the point is the same. Propane has more carbon-carbon bonds, which release more energy when broken in combustion. Actually, methane has no carbon-carbon bonds, so the energy released by burning methane is from breaking the C-H bonds and turning them into C-O2 and H2-O bonds. Propane gets an extra kick from the C-C-C bond breakage.
OK, it's been decades since I studied organic chemistry but that's basically the case.
I'm disregarding the fact that natural gas can contain significant amounts of propane. But the major portion is still methane.
I must have ethanol on the brain today ;-)
(C202H6)
Anyway, the point is the same. Propane has more carbon-carbon bonds, which release more energy when broken in combustion. Actually, methane has no carbon-carbon bonds, so the energy released by burning methane is from breaking the C-H bonds and turning them into C-O2 and H2-O bonds. Propane gets an extra kick from the C-C-C bond breakage.
OK, it's been decades since I studied organic chemistry but that's basically the case.
I'm disregarding the fact that natural gas can contain significant amounts of propane. But the major portion is still methane.
PS-togs...
You might want to look into one of the dual-hose four-way portable AC units. These can be rolled from room to room and the pricier models from Soleus and others can be used as heat exchangers as well as AC units. They would probably function well until the outdoor temps dip below 40F - but they would help fill in the gap in fall between a drop in temps and when the building heat comes on. Plus, they are much more energy efficient than resistance heating units.
You might want to look into one of the dual-hose four-way portable AC units. These can be rolled from room to room and the pricier models from Soleus and others can be used as heat exchangers as well as AC units. They would probably function well until the outdoor temps dip below 40F - but they would help fill in the gap in fall between a drop in temps and when the building heat comes on. Plus, they are much more energy efficient than resistance heating units.
turboace
Well-known member
Ugh, organic!
The only thing I remember from Organic Chemistry is:
Mary
Eats
Peanut
Butter
Methyl
Ethyl
Propyl
Butyl
Ha, I hated that professor, Dr. Russell. I'm sure she is long since dead. Even though she passed me with a D+ I still managed a 3.92 overall.
The only thing I remember from Organic Chemistry is:
Mary
Eats
Peanut
Butter
Methyl
Ethyl
Propyl
Butyl
Ha, I hated that professor, Dr. Russell. I'm sure she is long since dead. Even though she passed me with a D+ I still managed a 3.92 overall.
