Hypothetical question: Can't 110 volt dryer vents/ fan speed be cut way down?

[harpon]

These larger asian units claim a weight of 44 lbs- while the Kenmore is an entire 100 lbs- How do they do it?

anyone have one of these? Are they strong enough? I doubt they vent as much air, but just guessing- the Space Saver really blows it out the drum!

 

[kitty]

Your idea of putting screen mesh on the blower is quite crazy- it will also make another lint trap for the lint that doesn't get stuck on the first one, so that should be avoided. Lower heat will not produce less lint- no matter what temperature it is set on it will still produce about the same amount of lint.

A 110 volt dryer won't produce as much heat as a 230 volt one due to less electrical friction in the element.

Less heat might make the dry time longer, but it will cause the clothes to last longer, due to the more gentle heat, so I HIGHLY advise against restricting the airflow to produce more heat.

Your dryer should be fine the way it is and again, I HIGHLY disapprove restricting the airflow. If the airflow is restricted, you'll also cause the high limit thermostat to constantly to kick out and it will break, and it will make another lint trap for lint to get caught in. On those dryers, the fan is directly connected to the motor and the drum belt is also connected, too. I f you use a rheostat to control the speed, the drum will tumble very slowly, and the motor will be very weak. If the speed is slow enough, the motor will stay in the start winding and it will overheat and blow up. The heater is connected to the centifugal switch on the motor and the drum will not heat, so you shouldn't use a rheostat to control its speed.
I hope this helps.

 

[harpon]

The extra screen idea is for the lint filter, not the blower-

and I disagree with most of your post- and I think less heat will at least DISLODGE less lint, if not make less of it. Heat will get it more airborn, so lets see if we can get some to FLY!

Anyway I just finished a load- a smaller laundty basket full- the unit is 3.4 square feet- of about 8 pair cotton underwear, two tee shirts, a top sheet, two light towels and five pairs of socks-

ONE HOUR dried it almost completely- the towels were slightly damp, the tee shirts just the slightest trace of damp, and all else dry.

I periodically opened the door to check the temp-
yes, yes 120v heat- probably NEVER GETTING NEAR thermal temp cut-off-

So I'm satisfied covering the little hole at the top of the heater element duct with duct tape is no problem- and I'll probably drive some pie plate alumuniinum with two screws over it permanently-

and I'll eventually decrease the airflow- the motor speed was just another idea earlier, and I'm not going to play with that-

but less airflow only makes sense, and I have another idea for that- perhaps some drillings in the blower housing itself-

and here is why- when I began this thread I was under the impression that the blower BLEW air through the system-

while now I see NO-
it really only sucks air out of the drum!

The blower is at the END of the endflow and only pushes it out of the vent it lies inches from. Then I was thinking the blower sucks the air through the whole system- and this it may do a slight bit-

but the drum is NOT airtight- it really seems to be only exhausting the drum- the heater coil is on the other side of the back- and its' duct goes up and into the drum-

The hot air heated will RISE and go into the drum whether the blower has influence or not- also the tumbling clothes will create a vacuum by their very movement-

so now I believe that the blower will not affect the level of heat into the drum- only the RATE at which it exits-

so the drum is geting warm now- but not HOT and the clothes are drying-

but they CAN dry faster

and incidentally- I didn't use any venting out of the machine- I opened the bathroom window and turned on the overhead bathroom vent, and closed the door-

north Florida temp approx 65- 70 degrees- and I had no problems with excessive heat or lint.

An hour's worth of drying- VERY MODERATE thin lint coat over lint screen-
it only confirms my own belief- there's less lint here than my other 240 volt, though it's larger

no I may not put mesh there- but may try because it's so easy-

but if I really want to reduce the airflow I'll drill holes in the blower fins, or the blower housing-

the fin idea would draw less lint into the outer housing- but either will cut velocity and keep the blower from sucking the low heat out so fast.

it's a olong long way to cut-off temp on 120 v

and I'm already at 1 hour drying time- if I can cut that to 45 I'd be very happy and only about 15 minutes more than my larger dryer on 240-

so on we go.....

 

[DADoES]

 
The blower pulls air through the element housing to heat it, through the drum to extract moisture from the tumbling clothes, through the filter, then blows it out the exhaust.  Relying only on convection currents of heated air rising in the element housing into the drum is likely not going to work very well ... the blower needs to actively pull air through the element.

Too much reduction on airflow cuts the rate at which moisture exits the drum and tumbling clothes. The drying process is not only about the heating, it's also very much about the airflow.  Full-240v dryers with clogged exhaust ducting get hot but drying speed is (severely) reduced due to the impact on (not) moving the moisture out.

Heat does not cause lint.  Lint is from the physical abrasion of the fabric during tumbling.  The only reason for a filter in the dryer is to catch majority of the lint before it gets into and clogs the exhaust ducting ... or accumulates into an unsightly mess on the ground outside the house at the exhaust hood.  The airflow pulls the lint particles out of and off of the clothes (so they're not left linty), but it does not *cause* the lint.

 

[harpon]

Alright- I respect your view but I'm still not sure if its right-
as I said above- the drum isn't airtight- I have a lot of doubt about how much air is actually pulled past the coil by the dryer blower at the other end of the exhaust vent- then there is also that HOLE at the top of the heating element duct-

below is a picture- not mine I got from another thread- but the configuration is exactly the same as mine- only my hole at the top of the heater duct on the right is not that large or round. I was sticking y finger in there when I'd first turn it on while rewiring to see if the coils were heating- I felt no particular strong airflow, nor excessive heat, and the hole itself would prevent a lot of vaccum effect past it- so I think the coil heat IS actually largely convection. I taped over the hole and will seal permanantly it just to not let insufficient heat escape there.

I was toying with an idea about turbo-charging the system by running some of the final vent back into the heating duct, and the nice round hole in this unit looks enticing to run a tube into,

plus it wouldn't pass the coil that way- but I nixed that with respect to it being MOIST air and needing some escape- the small 120 v heat blowing SO HARD out the back is still another matter.

Incidentally I ordered another heating coil, as this one proved not even labled to be the 5400 I thought- 3700 or something I think it said before I stuck it back in.

So, yes, I think your airflow concerns are more paramount in my concerns as well- but it just still seems an excessive vent with such little heat, and then there's the fact that the same blower and ducts are used in the 240 models. So in short I don't see the blower sucking air past the tumbling clothes. I see the tumbling clothes getting air by tumbling and through the heat duct opening and around the drum edges, but the air is only being vented out, not sucked through the heating duct.

I may take a pie plate cover the vent, worm clamp the wrap-
but cut the bottom third off- so lint can still escape

and try that- I MAY someday- just to experiment- better still as far as i'm concerned would be to reduce the fin volume- filing, grinding , breaking, but probably best drilled here and there, to reduce the blast out of the vent- if it didn't work, just put another in- Probabaly more viable than the duct cover, but harder and more exspense to reverse. May even take some strain off the old motor by not constantly pushing so much air.

You may be right about the lint and probably are- but an hour's worth of drying at very low heat didn't produce a healthy "peel" off the filters- I had to scrape the small amount-

so at this point I don't see it as much of a problem beyond routine maintenance, and if I reduce the airflow sometime in the future- I will at least get a good feel for what the norm is now- then I can more have a feel for what's what by trial and error and not speculation

 

[harpon]

I this thread the owner of this machine thinks the fins got ground down from rubbing against the cover- but I wonder if they've been broken or ground down by someone trying to reduce the velocity of the exhaust-

again- not my picture- from another thread here (link)
Wish mine was the color of that one there.

http://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?48397

 

[harpon]

In fact blocking the end vent may not have a good effect- while the heat so far is far from dangerous
and the lint level nil-
it would create a blow back and still the blades would catch as much air resistence-

I'll probably reduce the fins in some way-
that simply will lower the exhaust velocity-
time will tell- I don;t plan to do this soon

but now I'm simply intrigued by the question

http://www.ebay.com/itm/KENMORE-DRY...337?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20e07410d1

 

[harpon]

NOW after watching a couple of videos about replacing the blower wheel-

I'm doubting that I'll do anything to the fins- or at least NOT with a new blower wheel-

because the replacement involves taking the dryer completely aprt- from both sides- the drum out belt off- turning nuts on the motor shaft with SAE wrenches I don't have, removing the back cover, etc, etc etc.

in short- beyond me and beyond a level of involvement I want- I could still file the fins down a bit- and that wouldn't be too hard- but virtually irreversible without replacing the fan- if it broke, I'm screwed

too bad- replacing the fan is ridiculously difficult, even for a bicycle mechanic of days past.

I may try the pie plate idea on the vent- but if it doesn't work well that's that.

Hey what about MORE COIL on another separate line further up the element vent?

sorta joking-
mount a benz-o-matic in the back and sticking into that top vent hole?

below- one of my more practical t inker toys......

 

[harpon]

I rethought of the other idea I had earlier and forgot:

possible drillings in the blower duct above the blower- they could be screened maybe
,
or even slightly spacing the duct away from the body with something- leaving a sliver of air leak-

THESE solutions would be easy to do and fairly easy to reverse I think- especially any spacing solution-

any way, the blower would be drawing in neutral air from the dryer case and with less force out of the drum- letting more heat build up, but still having plenty of escape-

If you think about it, the constant between the 120 and 240 volt models is the blower and duct set-up,

and the drum speed and tumbling are the same,

the variable is the heat put in- a full 1/4 less the wattage at half the voltage

So the drying time is extended- with a plus that no exterior venting is easier to achieve if it's not a scorching Florida summer day-

But why is the time extended? Because there's less heat. So the heat needs a chance to build up to the more "normal" operating temp-

aby small cuts in the air flow shouldn't make that much of a difference, because the moisture is leaving the clothes more slowly-

So I personally think there's a margin to work with- the heat will never build up to 240volt levels anyway - so a gentler air flow should handle lesser temps curving up on a graph to a point where the loss of air flow becomes too great to remove the moist air- I thnk it's some ways out there on the graph, and the drying time can obviously be cut with no real safety issues-

If I were to design a dryer- I think I'd put the 120 volt heating coils under a drum that had slots in it to fan it upwards,and surrounded by a light aluminum shroud to keep it there, except I'd then vent it out the top, with possibly a small fan motor attached to a thermostat like the one on your car's radiator

below-
outside airflow on the blower duct (removed here) on the left could be introduced to reduce air from the drum without altering the blower,
but that is a HUGE opening for the lint filter in a smaller drum and using much lower heat

 

[thefixer]

You are wrong in your thinking about airflow. Proper airflow is essential to proper dryer operation and safety. That's why the hi limit thermostat is on the heater box. Improper airflow and it gets too hot in the heater box and the hi limit will cycle the heat off. Most modern dryers also have a thermal cutoff on the heater box which is a last line of defense safety device to cut the heat of permanently (non-resettable device).

From Whirlpool training manual:

Reduced air pressure in the drum during operation
draws the seals in and effectively seals the drum ends.
The two seals, one at the back and one at the front,
are the points most susceptible to leaking. If either
does not seal effectively while the drum is rotating,
there would not be enough air passing through the
heater box.
If air is allowed to leak in through any point other
than the heat source, drying efficiency is greatly
affected. Not only is the lack of heated air a factor,
but it must also be remembered that the heater is
generating a predetermined amount of heat. If not
enough air is passing to carry off the heat as fast as
it is being produced, the excessive temperature
building up in the heat duct will open a hightemperature-
limiting safety thermostat switch and
shut off the heat source.

From GE service manuals:

 

[kitty]

Let's talk simple terms...

Imagine the bathroom it the dryer, the heater the dryer's element, and the exhaust fan the exhaust blower, the steam is the moist air generated from the clothes. It is a cold morning while you want to take a shower, to your idea is like taking packing tape and covering half of the heater's inlet vent to make the air coming out hotter. You also use the tape to cover half the exhaust fan's inlet vent so the heat won't get blown out of the bathroom. You turn on the exh. fan and take a hot, steamy shower. While you are taking the shower, the steam builds up in the bathroom. Since half of the airflow is restricted, it takes twice much time to exhaust the steam. Also, the heated air coming out of the heater is hotter, but it takes longer to get it around the room because the air is coming out at half of the speed.

So, in the dryer, it will impede performance, because it takes longer to get the moist air out of the drum, and longer to get the whole drum heated up.

***Also, the dryer WILL NOT get hotter, due to the cycling thermostat cutting the heater off at the right temperature.***

TRUST ME, you will regret doing this.

 

[harpon]

Yes- but again-

You are posting an image and text about a GAS dryer- and talking as if there's some USUAL amount of heat- and I chose that word instead of "normal"-

when in this dryer on 120 volt current- there's almost NO heat- nothing HOT - just a little bit WARM- well UNDER cutoff temp-

and then still- in the discussions about how much air is drawn from the heat source in some "airtight" system- there is that large gaping hole at the top of the heating duct- the silver tube on the right in the photo above- It CAN"T POSIIBLY be an airtight vacuum-

"If air is allowed to leak in through any point other
than the heat source, drying efficiency is greatly
affected"- well there IS the leak- manufactured right in, and currently covered with duct tape on my own unit- now two drying loads on 120v on-

The temp of the drum is the issue- barely warm air is reaching the clothes on 120, yet still being vented by the same apparatus, in the same volume and velocity, as the air heated by a 240 element on a 240 model- just doesn't make sense or bespeak of a concern for efficiency-

Look at the reviews at Sears, where these units still sell for twice what the asian units go for- the same complaint is often heard- "no heat, too long drying time" for the 120 volt unit.

Theres simply not enough heat here to "cause hot spots or premature failure" just the reverse

I know this is an age when we want to have faith in the corporations and their decisions and policies, but sometimes we have to realize that these decisions are sometimes based on their need to turn out product faster, and not on the changing needs of the consumjer or social landscape- which grows more mobile and crowded.

Years ago, Whirlpool/Kenmore decided to vent the 240 and 120 volt units the same way, despite a variance in heat input. I simply think that was a manufacturing- based decision and not a consumer oriented one.

Back when I got a degree in Journalism in the late '70's, there was still more a thing known as "consumer reporting" where this very type of issue likely got more discussion and credence, but these days an internet mob is more apt to jump to corporate defense out of political correctness.

Issues of safety are not that appropriate and a bit over-concerned here I think, if you actually felt the temps here. Frankly, the automatic "MR. SAFETY!!" responses are slightly annoying- when as I tried to imply in my title- I'm just thinking hypothetically and tinkering here and there when I can easily do so.

What would actually be more appropriate for this unit on 120 volt power is a smaller blower fan to move the lesser heat out at a slower rate, and maybe I should be getting some big dollars from Whirlpool to make that happen,

instead of having thugs surround my dwelling to keep me from discussing THE WEATHER on the internet, which has indeed been the case.

anyway, good luck.

 

[harpon]

And another thing I'm bothered by- the BLOWER FAN.
Seems like it would be incredibly easy to have it removable from the BACKSIDE alone, WITHOUT taking the machine all the way apart, front and back.

Very SUSPICIOUS in my mind at least- too stupid actually to be just an oversight.
They don't want that changed or serviced easily- perhaps you;ll just buy new again!

But then like I said- I've been a bicycle person- over 40 years to really know the nuts and bolts and see the trends-

and the oil driven corporate conglomerate has been defecating all over cycling in so many ways, YES- I have more a distrust of it.

 

[thefixer]

Doesn't matter whether it's gas or electric. Essentially the same diagram and wording is used in their documentation on electric dryers. The holes in your heater box are not "leaks". They are intake vents. If you read again, you will see where it says a portion of the air pulled into the cabinet is heated by the heat source and is mixed with the remainder of the air that is pulled in via the vents of the diffuser. If you place your hand over your "holes", you won't feel any air "leaking" out because it is being pulled in. The blower pulls air through the machine and only pushes air out the exhaust vent. Many of these dryers have multiple heat settings with no change in airflow. The typical full sized dryer has an air exchange of 100-150cfm with larger dryers up to 230cfm. The cfm is based on the dryer drum and venting system sizes, not how hot the air gets. During the first part of the drying cycle, most of the heat is absorbed by the wet clothes which is why when in auto dry cycle, the timer doesn't even advance initially as the air entering the blower housing is not even hot enough to cycle the operating thermostat.

 

[thefixer]

Something you have overlooked is lint buildup. The minimum duct air velocity should be at least 1,200 feet per minute to keep lint moving through the vent, as per UL code requirements. For a 4" diameter pipe, this requires 105cfm of air flow. Whirlpool documentation states that the exhaust air flow of any Whirlpool produced dryer at maximum rated vent length is at least 105cfm with maximum air flow at 230cfm.

 

[harpon]

This dryer needs less venting on 120 volts.

Save some energy, save some money and save some time.

There seems to be less lint on less heat.

tell "U eL" I'm not,
and so very glad to not be eligible for military evils Dean Wormer

 

[foraloysius]

I'm flabbergasted. Everyone here tells you you shouldn't reduce the airflow in the dryer and still you persist.

If you hang laundry outside, it dries quicker in colder, dryer weather with more wind, than in warmer, more humid weather with less wind. Drying is heat x airflow x time. It's that simple. Lowering the airflow means more of one of the other factors, which mean if you don't add more heat (a bigger heating element) you will need more time to dry. And more time means a higher electricity usage.

 

[thefixer]

"Anybody with any experise or thoughts about dryer venting vs. element power operating temperature, and voltage?"

You have been given good corroborating advice but had apparently already made up your mind regarding your theory, so whats the point???

 

[harpon]

The point is I can think and experiment for myself- now even with a good bit of data from a machine I have in my possesion.

Forgive me if I take your expertise with a grain of salt, but I've had people telling me I can't lower the strings of my violin without paying a luthier and argued with people over Global Warming who don't watch a half dozen radar and satellite images every day, monitor the Mississippi water levels, or frequently search info on the Austrailian Drought or the Sierra snowpack.

Yes- this thread started out with the lable "hypothetical question"
and a few days ago I had a lot less insight to the nature of what stood before me

But there are two factors here that keep me making the same statements like:

"This dryer needs less venting on 120 volts.

Save some energy, save some money and save some time.

There seems to be less lint on less heat."

I lived for three years in Needles California out in the desert- I could put a t-shirt outside to dry- against rental corporation policy I might add- and it would be dry in 15 minutes on the calmest of 115 degree days- it's easy for you to make these broad statements about heat v. airflow- but where exactly is your proof? Power company affiliated Mr. Roper of the Westinghouse slave wage bondage? I'm sorry if you don't think he's more interested in taking back your wages while you blame your taxes, but my trust isn't so great.

At best, I'm talking about a design that has been in service and changed little in 50 years, so maybe time itself is simply catching up to the little Kenmore in a world much changed around it, The first energy crisis was a mere 40 years back after all.

I have the machine in front of me and testing it- I can see the change in the coil, but not the ducts or blower, I can read the reviews at Sears and I can see the drying time and even open the door to check the temperature (Is there any manual that insists I wear a flameproof NOMEX racing suit that's been NASCAR approved? Some internet expert somewhere might tell me that- nothing personal, it's the landscape here)

I can feel the level of humidity in the room, feel the stream of air and see the lintless floor behind the unpiped exhausted vent

And it all may be VERY GOOD-

IN FACT it may be what people want- Because I'll tell you this : You probably don't need an outside vent in most of the country for most of the year if you're not sitting next to the mnachine on the toilet the lengthy time it's drying, because there's not enough heat or steam or lint to worry about. COOL!

But I'll bet SOMEONE then would say THAT was wrong too. I have to have a vent! It's CODE somehow! Because you're more concerned with expressing the common base of knowledge you believe you have, than to what I'm saying NOW (and not days ago here)

YES- I have a basic distrust of things corporate these days, and horror stories I could tell- but not here- to back them up plenty. And that's above and beyond the thoughts I said earlier that sometimes corporations make decisions based on levels of production- these particular ones being decades and decades ago,.

If I end up cutting the velocity of air coming out the back now- I'm VERY convinced it WILL cut the drying time, without danger, but it might increase the need to external pipe the unit again too and that might not be good.

If it was stil heating up with 240 volts- I'd more likely feel you MIGHT BE RIGHT in your opinion, but not at 120 volt levels. That's still my opinion with the machine here-

I'm not talking about any other models, I couldn't- THIS one I've researched and used. You can't enforce your opinion onto my experience, just because someone writing of things in general said something contrary in some generalized policy. You are sort of assuming the machine was engineered to perfection to begin with, while I see it more as a cheap adaptation. Lower your Jane Eyre Austin Sensibilities please! You still may be right, but you can't enforce my considered opinion- Time will tell, if I tinker more. Don't be too "flabergasted" by my "theory" folks, I have the machine here with me to test, while yours is more the theory.

I am grateful to have this machine and happy I didn't sell it for $40 last summer- I'd paid $75 two years ago It's still very much drying on 120, although I had only occasion to use it several times before I got a larger 240 volter to replace it in the garage, so I wish I had a better feel for how it actually did on more power. I want maybe smaller machines indoors and that nasty situation with the 240 volt outlet frying itself last month really tilted me toward using 110 power in the house- call me Mr. Safety if you will!

Yet I wouldn't buy one of these new now these datys in 120 especially- it's almost $600 new while you can get an even slightly larger cubic foot asian machine that weighs half as much for half the money.

I'll be installing a new heater element in a week or two., so I'll have the back off again. And I'l take a closer look at the blower housing and duct- I may likely try to decrease the flow by getting air into the duct by spacing- drilling the duct would be more radical- and any changes to the fan almost irreversible, but I may see how easily the fins may grind- doubt I'll go that route-

but now I've simply got an idea- a short-gap fix- I could in fact simply impede the vent at the end for testing purposes only- a sliver of air, and I may try to vary any gap I might open between the duct and the drum just to see if I can hear or sense what pressure there is there. It wouldn't be any final solution- and measuring any percentage of loss is pure speculation, I'm thinking 20 to 40 percent wouldn't really be too much, so I could guess 20 and then double it later if I need to. If you're right about airflow to that extent, then I wouldn't go further, but my gut feeling is that this dryer could vent less heat and still be getting rid of the mositure just as fast.

I may cover part of the lintscreen with some foil, as a test as well, but independently of other manipulation. It's so GIGANTIC that I could probably cover two thirds with aluminum and not reduce airflow that much- depending on the duct pressure- if it's really sucking hard a 4 inch diameter circle of volume will still vent about as fast, only with more velocity at the lint trap. I think it would still trap the small amount of lint too- The two loads I've done have seen very sparse lint, If most of it were still be in the clothes and I'd never know it. But if I sucseed in raising the heat, and there's more lint, then YOUR theory about that is wrong too.

Anyway, can't believe I'm wasting this much time on this- simpy intrigued a bit now- try some simple things and go from there.

 

[eronie]

???

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