I am Persil-Unanimous in this...

[sudsmaster]

To commemorate my recent acquisition of two vintage Miele washers/driers (W1065/T1050/W1918) I finally broke down and ought a big box of Persil at my local Miele dealer. It wasn't cheap: $59 for a 12 lb box. That's a bit more than the $41 for same size box I was quoted at same store about five years ago. Works out to abour $1/load.

Ran a first load with it in the Neptune 7500. Bath sheets at hottest (130F) temp. First added 1 oz, little sudsing. Added about another 1 oz., noticed some sudsing, which did not seem to increase as the temp went up. Left a light foam in the boot at end of cycle, even with 4 rinses. So did an extra rinse/spin. Dryer yielded relatively soft and fluffy results w/o fabric softener, not quite as soft as when I use Safeway Select Free and Clear liquid, but close. Definitely softer than when using Sears Ultra Plus HE.

I will probably be using the the Persil in the Mieles, mainly. Will run a load of whites with it in the Neptune to see how it does. Definitely want to see how it performs in the W1065 at 200F, lol...

I notice the ingredient listing is more complete than with most American detergents. Thanks, EU! As Launderess has noted before, it lists soap as one of the minor ingredients. I imagine this may help to supress foaming, but not entirely sure. It might also help with a soft final result. I am thinking I might try adding a little grated/granual Ivory bar soap to my regular Sears HE powder/STPP mix to see if that helps to supress sudsing and give a softer final result.

The fragrance is a bit strong, but not objectionable. Sort of a piney-lemony scent (is that lemon verbena?).

Procter & Gamble

P&G is improving everyday life as a Force for Growth and a Force for Good — for you, for the world, and for generations to come.

scienceinthebox.com

 

[launderess]

Leave Dat Persil Alone!

*LOL*

If you want to add something, try a teaspoon or so of STPP, or some oxygen bleach (sodium percarbonate, not perborate as Persil has switched to the former). No soap, it is not needed and may interfere with the excellent rinsing one gets with Persil. Nothing rinses cleaner in my Miele than Persil, other than the European commercial detergent for colours.

Persil uses soap as a surfactant and defoamin agent, least that is what one remembers from reading the ingredients for "Persil avec Savon de Marseille" detergent.

Henkel using linadool (sp?) which is an extract from the rosemary plant for scent in regular Persil. This actually is quite odd as linadool (sp?), is listed as one of the ingredients that can cause allergice reactions in some. Then again so is lavender, so guess it varies by person.

Persil like many TOL European detergents gives a softer wash in part because they are not loaded down with washing soda, the filler/active ingredient of choice for many US detergents. While one finds washing soda in Persil powders/tablets, it generally is less than what one finds on this side of the pond.

For a large unit like your Neptune, start with 1/4 to 1/3 cup regular Persil powder, and adjust up or down as soil conditions/results warrant. For the 5kg Mieles 2 tablespoons to 1/4 cup is a good start, again depending upon load size. Use more detergent if you don't wish to add extra oxygen bleach for badly stained loads, less if you are going to add oxygen bleach.

That huge Persil box should last you quite some time. Mine lasted the better part of one year, doing two to three loads of wash per week on average.

Adding Powdered Soap To Detergents:

My experience has been adding soap to a wash load works best with liquid detergents, as they do not contain cloudy water softeners that can cause soap scum.Granted adding STPP to the wash helps, but the washing soda is still there. Really only add tiny amounts of either Savon de Marseille or Ylang-Ylang scented soap to wash loads of linens, mainly for scent. Laundering with soap is just too much of a hassle in terms of rinsing and keeping things white to bother with on a rountine basis.

L.

 

[sudsmaster]

I have to say I'm favorably impressed with Persil so far. Washed a few loads in the Neptune with it, and last night resumed washing in the 1918 with a mixed load of cottons at 140F. 2 oz of Persil seemed to do the job, little to no sudsing, mild fragrance after drying. Kind of like the scent.

Noticing that the 1918 takes way longer to get up to temp than the 1065. And once it did, it plateaued at 130-135, never did get up to 140. No biggie, but it's nice to know. Part of the reason for the slow heating is that the dual heating elements are weaker than those in the 1065 (1300 watts each vs 1500 watts each). Probably also the computer in the 1918 rmaps up the temp slower so as to allow for more enzyme action and to reduce setting of stains.

Picked up a bottle of "Washer Magic" today at the local appliance parts store. At $15, it's not much cheaper than the Miele version ($20 on line). Lists citric acid as ingredient (only one mentioned). Probably will wait until have opened up mcahine to see what cause of intermittant noise during tumbling might be. Worn belt? Bad motor bearing? Bad tub bearing? Ghosts of Mieles past?

 

[launderess]

For twenty dollars one can purchase 5lbs or more of pure citric acid from any chemical/soap making supply house and have enough for the duration. Am considering doing so once I've cleared room in my stash.

The differences between the Miele 10** series and the 19** reflects changes in laundry product chemistry. By the mid-1990's or so TOL detergents on both sides of the pond had very effective enzyme cleaning action,and activated oxygen bleaching, all of which removed the need for pre-washing and very high wash temperatures. We see the next generation of Miele and other front loading washing machines going further with the removal of washing temperatures above 160F or even 140F in some cases.

Persil really shines in that it rinses VERY well, much better than Tide HE or any other American detergent I've tried so far.

L.

 

[sudsmaster]

What is the approximate weight of the Miele descaler product?

 

[panthera]

The interesting thing is,

Even the bargain,store brands such as AS wash just as well (or nearly) as does Persil...and at 1/3 to 1/2 the price.
With the continuing increas in FLs in the US, it is time for the European manufacturers to launch a major offensive in the US.
Our detergents over here are formulated for these machines, they are meant for hard water conditions which most folks in the US (lucky them) don't have...and they dance rings around the expensive stuff sold in the US.
I have found that "Baby Biz" does a similarly good job to my German detergents in US FLs, by the way. Those enzymes actually work.
Sudsmaster, I once made a big mistake de-scaling a machine. Stopped when there were 'only' a few pieces of scale remaining on the heating elements. Thought they would quickly dissolve through normal washing. Nope, they served as insulation and led to rapid failure of the Miele's very expensive elements.
Which led to a lecture from the Miele customer service agent.
Sigh.
So what ever you do, get all of it off or leave it be.
Organic and health food stores stock citric acid and it is also available in large quantities for canning. Should so not be a problem in Marin County, unless things have changed a lot since I left.

 

[sudsmaster]

Thanks, Keven.

How did you manage to see that there were a few pieces of scale left on the heating elements? I can sort of see white plastic and stuff through the holes in the wash basket, but it's not at all a clear view, and I didn't recognize anything I thought was a heating element. I suppose I could pull the boot to check - and I'll probably do that anyway since there seems to be a residual sudsing issue.

 

[alanlendaro]

question regarding Miele models

Hi Laundress and Rich

I have a 1918A washer (about 7 years old). It goes to 190 degrees F. Is it the same as yours, Rich and how hot does yours go? Also, are you connecting to both hot and cold or are you setting it up for cold fill only? Laundress, which is older the 10xx series or the 19xx series?

I have to say the Miele/Persil combo is unbeatable.

 

[launderess]

Miele Laundry Appliance

Model numbers run in sequences for the most part, however in the case of washing machines, the 10XX would came before the 19XX. However the 12XX came after the 19** so go figure.

Viewing the Heating Elements:

Other than shining a light into the drum and peering down carefully, there really in not a better way to see the heating elements, short of taking the washing machine apart. Once you train your eyes to look "under" the holes, the elements are easy to spot. One thing you could do is take a thin wooden stick, like a chopstick, and CAREFULLY place it down a hole and CAREFULLY roate the drum until you it the heating element. DO NOT DO THIS VERY FAST OR VERY HARD! There are some very sensitive sensors and other things down there!

L.

 

[sudsmaster]

Alan,

Mine is a 1918, no "A" suffix. It goes to 170, not 190. Otherwise it seems fairly similar to the 1918A, at least as far as I can determine from the manual. It might be possible that Miele put out the 1918 first, with the 170 max temp setting, trying to win favor with the environmentalists, but in response to customer response came out with the 1918A, with the temp back up to 190 (nearly 200). I have also noticed the 1918 is very frugal with water, and I wonder if the 1918A has higher water levels as well.

 

[sudsmaster]

Launderess,

Thanks. The other night I very carefully inserted a wooden toothpick into into one of the holes. My object was to see if I could gently scrape off any scale from the solid portion of the outer drum. Not much came out. I'll take another look one of these days, but I'm thinking pulling the boot is in order, which will give a much better view of things.

Just wondering: how much was the boot for your machine? Or was the price rolled into the overall cost of the service call? I'm thinking this one is old enough that it's taken a set, and if I remove it, as another has already said, it may never seal quite right again.

Of course, with two Mieles, it won't kill me to have the 1065 out of action while it awaits a new boot. And the concrete floor in the shop is very forgiving of minor water spills - they generally dry up in a few hours. Probably soaking into the concrete.

I was wondering about the model number sequence. The 12xx series seems out of order, but it wouldn't be the first time an appliance mfg got all that turned around.

 

[launderess]

It has been over a year, possibly two since I've had my Miele, and all that went with it,including ordering new boot and the shipping rods. May still have the invoice somewhere, hopefully it wasn't rubbished after being used for tax purposes.

Like all things Miele, it wasn't cheap, that much one does remember. If you are remotely considering replacing the boot, should warn you they do NOT go on very easily. Stood there watching the young repair lad fit mine onto the machine and even for a fit person like his-self it was a bit of a wrestle, and sometimes one thought the boot would win! *LOL*

Am happy the boot was replaced as the one which was on the machine was covered almost rotted with mould and even had one or more large holes. All this was on the part of the boot one cannot see, but still.

Oh, once you fit a new boot onto a Miele washer, the door will have to be slammed shut quite hard. The service/install tech showed me how, and told me not to be afraid to do so. Even today simply pushing the door closed will not do anything, have to slam the thing shut. Not something one likes to do when other persons are sleeping elsewhere in the house.

L.

 

[MrX]

Persil avec Savon de Marseille - not a Henkel Product

Laundress,

Persil avec Savon de Marseille (i.e. French Persil) is not a Henkel product at all. Unilever owns the rights to the Persil brand in France, the UK, Republic of Ireland and New Zealand (and possibly one or two other places). Persil avec Savon de Marseille is a unilever product which is aimed at a more 'natural' niche market in France. It sits on the shelf side by side with two other Unilever products, their main one : Skip and they use Omo branding in place of Surf.

The Henkel detergent in France is Le Chat.

 

[lavamat78800]

I´m havin problems with Persil a 200 F too.
Interim spin after mainwash is really poor, sometimes she cancels the spin and starts to rinse.

Even after the first rinse the machine is going to sudslock.

But Persil is the best choice fpr whites and I´m going to buy some Persil soon.
At the Moment Persil is having a Promotion with 25 % more powder, tabs, liquids for free.

 

[tomturbomatic]

Panthera, the disadvantage in exporting European detergents to the United States is the ratio of Euro to Dollar. The price would be too high here to be competetive. If they wanted to enter the US market, they should look into buying one of the less successful brands and make their product over here as discussed earlier. We definitely could use some quality He powder detergents.

Sudsmaster, Why are you feeling that the Miele boot needs replacing? It is no problem to flex it off the collar that holds it to the front of the cabinet like you have to do to open the machine. Then there is a screw behind the dispenser drawer and three bolts around the door to be removed. After that, there is the little catch under the front left corner to release and the whole front panel with the controls opens wide. You mention the long heating time in the 1918. Were you using the regular extended time cycle or the shorter quick cycle? It does heat more slowly on the long cycle to let enzymes work. My W1986 wil count down the wash time and then hold the time at 38 minutes while it takes about 17 min. to heat to 190. My older Miele, which I think was the W1065 with the white control panel would heat along in the wash cycle and if I turned the temperature selector down to a cooler setting, I could hear the heaters shut off. I sometimes did that briefly to see how hot the water was. The other thing was that the 1/2 load button would slow the heating (maybe using only one heating element?)so that a small load would get the same amount of washing as a large load.

A difference with the later W1918 machines is that the quick cycle option included more than the cottons cycle.

 

[sudsmaster]

Tom,

Others here have said that just pulling to boot (off the outer tub, not just from the front panel) often means the boot will leak afterwards, so replacement is often required. I won't know until I pull it. I'm assuming I'll have to pull it not only off the front panel but also from the outer tub in order to scope out the excessive scale/oversudsing issue. If it doesn't leak after I put it back together, then no need for a new boot.

 

[tomturbomatic]

Sudsmaster, what are you planning to scoop out? Anything in the outer tub will run down into the pump protector where pieces of whatever that are too large to pass through the pump will remain. If you think that the machine has heavy mineral deposits, you can buy plain old Fruit Fresh in the canning supplies section. As you know, it, too, is also citric acid. Generally, there will be traces of the mineral film on the glass and in the pump protector if the outer tub is mineraled up. I would not try to scrape any surface; chemically neutralizing the minerals is gentler to the surfaces.

I remember seeing an ad for Calgon in a magazine from Israel. Recognizing that word was easy. It showed a front loader and a typically shaped heating element that was totally encrusted with minerals. The text was something about using Calgon kept rocks from forming in the washer. A friend who was reading it with me said that the better translation was minerals though the same word could mean either, which is understandable. I didn't know from minerals. Liturgy does not mention minerals, only rocks.

 

[launderess]

Calgon water softener is shopped to households all over Europe and points beyond for use in dealing with hard water conditions. From automatic dishwashers to washing machines, use of Calgon is supposed to prevent hard water deposits from damaging the internal heating elements of such appliances.

Being as that may,the common consumer query is: "Do I need Calgon". Some consumer groups/publications, and appliance repair persons/makers will say "yes", others "no".

In theory proper use and dosage of a good detergent should take care of all but the hardest water conditions. In the extreme cases of hard water across the pond, the answer is the same as for in the States, homes purchase a whole house water softener.

Would in theory agree with Turbo, about scooping/scraping inside a Miele or any other front loading washing machine. If there are any sort of deposits either on the drum or on the heating elements, they are going to be mainly on the outer surface of the inner drum, which is impossible to reach without taking the drum assembly apart. Ditto goes for the heating elements. Repeated and contiuned use of a good descaling product should eventually break up and help remove whatever one thinks is lurking inside the washer.

Know you are keen to take apart and peek inside a Miele, but getting the machine open is only half the battle. You are not going to see very much besides the drum assembly, wires, switches, hoses and the like. What you are after in terms of cleaning, as I've stated, is going to be so deep within the washer that one will have to remove and take apart the entire drum assembly. Something, IIRC even Miele does not do to machines while they are in a home, but rather taken to a repair shop where a type of crane hoists parts out.

L.

 

[sudsmaster]

Scope, not scoop

Scope, as in view, look, see, etc. I reserve the right to disassemble my Miele, LOL.

I intend to inspect the belt, motor, pulley, etc.

I have a cherry picker if needed.

No Miele will get the better of moi!