I turned on my Furnace

[william8]

Knowledge.

15% is optimistic and not enough. That number will drop further when everything becomes all electric.

Solar and wind is exceptionally, prohibitively expensive on a mass scale for the power and reliability given.

Where do you get your (lack of) knowledge? Solar and wind are well known to be the cheapest. Nuclear the MOST expensive.

https://decarbonization.visualcapitalist.com/the-cheapest-sources-of-electricity-in-the-us/

And reliability? With 83% renewable/carbon free power generation, my electric company has an uptime of 99.989%. I haven't had a power outage in years.

https://cherrylandelectric.coop/2025/03/keeping-score/

No offense, but how old are you? I'm 61, and a lot of people my age and older seem to fight change and progress. Aren't you a lot younger than I?

I've always been for progress, and not letting China kill us on every single technology that's out there. They're going to take this over as well. GO USA!

 

[Chetlaham]

Upfront.

Nuclear also has the smallest footprint, the most longevity, the most reliability and the most dependability.

In the long run it is cheap.

The uptime you speak of is the byproduct of fossil fuel.

 

[wayupnorth]

Like I had said earlier and William 8 said. Canada is blowing us away with Hydro Power. We used to have that but environmentalist said they stop fish going up a river. I say I dont care, put the dams back and give us cheap, reliable, renewable power

 

[Chetlaham]

Yes, because Canada has rivers. Not every place is that fortunate. For that, there is nuclear.

 

[william8]

Upfront.

Nuclear also has the smallest footprint, the most longevity, the most reliability and the most dependability.

In the long run it is cheap.

The uptime you speak of is the byproduct of fossil fuel.

Nonsense. The uptime is because they are a non-profit coop that actually reinvests in maintaining their grid. They don't run out of power. It's 83% renewable, carbon free. If they had to keep switching back to fossil fuels the number would be lower.

Like I said, I'm not against nuclear, it's just not realistic. 6-12 years to get a new plant online. Even longer when the protests start. And by cheaper over time, you're talking decades more. We'll be dead long before it's cheaper.

As of June 2025, 41 plants in the US have been decommissioned. The only two new reactors built in the U.S. in the last 30 years are at the Plant Vogtle in Georgia, and there are plans to start building 10 more by 2030. That will put us at 29 plant less than we used to have. That's the reality, or will be 11 to 17 years from now.

 

[phillymatt53]

<snip: removed political reference>

They don't harm aquatic life. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-66928305

All alternative energy, even if it's just solar on one house, reduces the load on the grid. But let's avoid progress at any cost.

<snip: removed political reference>
I also don't believe everything posted online, as you link might suggest.
And yes, solar on my friend's house did reduce the load on the griid, once it burned to the ground.

Try again, it's not working.

 

[vacerator]

I can verify that as of this year alone, our power blink outs, and short outages have increased. A large new multi unit housing complex is under construction less than a mile away. There is at least three very large data centers within 5 miles. Most of the car charging is at dealerships in this city, Stellantis Ram plant, and the GM tech center. No they do not have their own full time power generators.

 

[Chetlaham]

Nonsense. The uptime is because they are a non-profit coop that actually reinvests in maintaining their grid. They don't run out of power. It's 83% renewable, carbon free. If they had to keep switching back to fossil fuels the number would be lower.

Like I said, I'm not against nuclear, it's just not realistic. 6-12 years to get a new plant online. Even longer when the protests start. And by cheaper over time, you're talking decades more. We'll be dead long before it's cheaper.

As of June 2025, 41 plants in the US have been decommissioned. The only two new reactors built in the U.S. in the last 30 years are at the Plant Vogtle in Georgia, and there are plans to start building 10 more by 2030. That will put us at 29 plant less than we used to have. That's the reality, or will be 11 to 17 years from now.

Cherry Land has nothing to do with their supplier or the broader transmission system:



Cherry Land is only responsible for the distribution system- not other parties, not the generation owners, not the transmission system, not Midcontinent Independent System Operator (MISO):



Wolverine still relies on the rest of the Eastern interconnection for supplemental power and stability. They are still bound by MISO. The reason why the transmission system does not go down or require load shedding comes from gas turbines, coal plants and nuclear facilities when their is not enough solar and wind.

The 83% number is financial, not technical or actual. All the electrical generation on the Eastern interconnection is interconnected together. When there is not enough of one type, others generation type increase its mega watt output to make up for it.

For example right now at this instant the bulk of your power being consumed by your home is coming from nuclear and natural gas energy. Wind only 6%, Solar only 3.7%:

https://www.misoenergy.org/




In fact if all the nuclear 16.4% power tripped of line at this exact instant in the mid US, upwards of 1 out of 10 customers may have a forced black-out until gas and coal generation can ramp up.


I think you mentioned the issue- protests. People don't understand nuclear power and have left it 80 years in the past.

 

[DADoES]

Fuel Mix graphs for the TX grid. Individual fuel types can be highlighted/isolated on the Previous Day and Current Day graphs by (carefully) placing a mouse pointer on the legend. Solar for the current Previous Day (9/13/2025) apparently was the primary source for part of the day. Wind is a reasonably substantial source throughout the day.

Signed: Goofy Glenn

 

[vacerator]

Ok, then it could just be due to more frequent generator switch over for maintenance. A very large coal plant ion Trenton is gone. Murrysville in St. Clair county closed. A line hung across the St. Clair river to Canada. I don't know how far out any juice from Fermi II in Monroe goes. DTE in Detroit might be pulling double duty now. The towers for my area travel up from there.

 

[vacerator]

We know someone in San Antonio. Her summer bills 5 years ago were ridiculously high. Over $400 a month for her 2.400 sq. ft. home.

 

[Chetlaham]

Ok, then it could just be due to more frequent generator switch over for maintenance. A very large coal plant ion Trenton is gone. Murrysville in St. Clair county closed. A line hung across the St. Clair river to Canada. I don't know how far out any juice from Fermi II in Monroe goes. DTE in Detroit might be pulling double duty now. The towers for my area travel up from there.

Most likely what you're seeing are transient faults from squirrels bridging insulators or a tree branch laying across open wire flashing over.

Substation breakers and pole mounted distribution reclosers are typically programmed for this exact reason to re-energize the line between one and four times following a short circuit trip before finally giving up and locking open.


Transient faults tend to happen most often on overhead residential circuits in wooded areas. So much so they are now offering reclosing devices that fit into standard fused cut outs:



https://www.sandc.com/en/products--...MIpaKBs7XYjwMVUmxHAR3DtijbEAAYASAAEgKjwPD_BwE

Quote pasted from the above website:






Generation at the utility level is typically paralleled together. There is no open transition of load when when utility scale generation switching takes place as it would with a stand alone emergency power system on a customer's premises. It is either synchronized and connected to the grid mesh or disconnected from it. The rest remains connected so customers do not see blinks from generation switching.

 

[vacerator]

Makes sense Chet. Blink outs also occur now more frequently during storms and wind gusts. The infrastructure is aging. There have been more residents losing one leg too. The DTE crew at a neighbor's said it was an animal that chewed the line below ground near the pole. That was the exact spot though where a sidewalk replacement crew saw cut the TV cable last year though.

 

[Chetlaham]

Makes sense Chet. Blink outs also occur now more frequently during storms and wind gusts. The infrastructure is aging. There have been more residents losing one leg too. The DTE crew at a neighbor's said it was an animal that chewed the line below ground near the pole. That was the exact spot though where a sidewalk replacement crew saw cut the TV cable last year though.

No offense, but Michigan, particularly Deteriot, is in need of major distribution upgrades.

 

[vacerator]

We know it Chet. DTE got it's rate hike though.

 

[Chetlaham]

We know it Chet. DTE got it's rate hike though.

Sadly, thats the way it tends to be. Rate hikes but questionable investment in comparison.

 

[DADoES]

We know someone in San Antonio. Her summer bills 5 years ago were ridiculously high. Over $400 a month for her 2.400 sq. ft. home.

Depends on usage habits and other details. My house is 2,350 sq ft. Considering summer being May to September ... 2020: $149.37, $187.09, $176.31, $113.05 (inclusive of $75.88 capital credit applied), $222.88. My bill average for 2020 was $143.14.

Signed: Goofy Glenn

 

[circlew]

I can verify that as of this year alone, our power blink outs, and short outages have increased. A large new multi unit housing complex is under construction less than a mile away. There is at least three very large data centers within 5 miles. Most of the car charging is at dealerships in this city, Stellantis Ram plant, and the GM tech center. No they do not have their own full time power generators.

If there's a lot of new construction in your area, the power co. is probably installing new lines and equipment. This is likely the reason you've been having short term outages lately, as they have to disconnect power to switch things over and make connections. Mine was going out often in the Spring and early Summer while lines were being reconfigured.

 

[pstehle]

Where do you get this from? That was just an example, in total it's over 15% of US energy production. Even better in my area.

https://cherrylandelectric.coop/energy/#:~:text=They then transmit that power across a,of which 19% is from renewable resources.

If we need so much energy (we do) then we should use everything available, and the cleaner the better.

Sadly another area where we are now letting China beat us in technology:
https://globalenergymonitor.org/rep...nstruction-as-the-rest-of-the-world-combined/

And Canada blowing us away with hydro power for decades.

Hydro can be a terrific source of power, I grew up in PA, the rivers there are working for us every day. There's one station south of Harrisburg that's been producing power since the early 20th century, and it's "run of river", meaning it doesn't completely dam the flow... fish can bypass it easily. Unfortunately, damming rivers and streams often involves inundating nature, settlements, etc, and has an effect upon fish migration. I can understand the backlash, but when compared to coal, oil, gas, even waste-to-energy, it's pretty clean. Nuclear is probably the best source for power, but has the potential to cause big problems as we've seen over the past half century. Not often, but when it happens, a big deal. There's also the issue of disposing of the "spent" fuel, and the environmental impacts of sourcing it in the first place. Nothing we have ever done or ever will do is without effect upon the earth... Solar and wind have their place, but until we have grid scale storage, there's no point in installing more. Each has a service life of maybe 20 years, it may be that long before storage is figured out. We have a tiny amount of grid storage, Mud Run in SE PA pumps river water up a hillside into a reservoir at night, then releases it during peak load. That project ruined a popular scenic gorge, which can never be put back. I'm old enough to have enjoyed hiking through it before construction began. The method only works in a few locations, so will never be a large contributor...

Maybe one solution could be to require that those enormous data farms AI needs be powered by on-site renewable, not grid tied. They would need to frame their consumption to occur whenever that power is available. Yes, it's complicated and expensive, but they're already spending ridiculous amounts of money building something that will hasten job losses and amp up big brother's ability to watch every move every person and every penny makes all over the planet. Another boon for corporate elite, another nail in the coffin of the commoner.

 

[william8]

I think you mentioned the issue- protests. People don't understand nuclear power and have left it 80 years in the past.

That's what I've been saying. It's great source of energy, but reality is, it ain't happening.

And thanks for telling me what a co-op is? I know they don't produce their own energy. It's a co-op.

 

[Chetlaham]

That's what I've been saying. It's great source of energy, but reality is, it ain't happening.

And thanks for telling me what a co-op is? I know they don't produce their own energy. It's a co-op.

Right, but my point was they are not the only entity in that 99.989% uptime. A lot of it comes from nuclear, coal and gas fired generation.

It may not happen now, but as time goes on it will have to happen. Carbon is carbon and we don't have enough fossil fuel to last forever.

 

[william8]

Right, but my point was they are not the only entity in that 99.989% uptime. A lot of it comes from nuclear, coal and gas fired generation.

It may not happen now, but as time goes on it will have to happen. Carbon is carbon and we don't have enough fossil fuel to last forever.

Maybe, but we will be long gone by then, at least I will. And you keep missing the point that there are other sources than fossil fuels. We need them all. That's all I've been saying.

And there are plenty of rivers in the US. I live within 40 miles of three hydro electric damns in Michigan, owned by Consumers. But I think they are selling them off. They hate to spend any profits maintaining anything.

That's who we have in the city 9 miles from my house, power goes out constantly. Not enough tree trimming. Cherryland has buried everything since the 70's. That's the main reason for their uptime.

 

[Chetlaham]

Maybe, but we will be long gone by then, at least I will. And you keep missing the point that there are other sources than fossil fuels. We need them all. That's all I've been saying.

And there are plenty of rivers in the US. I live within 40 miles of three hydro electric damns in Michigan, owned by Consumers. But I think they are selling them off. They hate to spend any profits maintaining anything.

That's who we have in the city 9 miles from my house, power goes out constantly. Not enough tree trimming. Cherryland has buried everything since the 70's. That's the main reason for their uptime.

I get the point, and no amount of solar, wind or hydro will help. Only thing that will work is nuclear energy.

 

[william8]

I get the point, and no amount of solar, wind or hydro will help. Only thing that will work is nuclear energy.

Why is it you are always so fixated on a single solution (that isn't happening)? You do this with any topic.

You don't get the point. We need to use all sources available. Solar, Natural gas, Hydro, Nuclear, and wind. Use them all. Although I don't like coal, for obvious reasons, and those are. or were, being rapidly, decommissioned as swell.

And I already have shown which is the cheapest.

 

[Chetlaham]

Why is it you are always so fixated on a single solution (that isn't happening)? You do this with any topic.

You don't get the point. We need to use all sources available. Solar, Natural gas, Hydro, Nuclear, and wind. Use them all. Although I don't like coal, for obvious reasons, and those are. or were, being rapidly, decommissioned as swell.

And I already have shown which is the cheapest.

Because that one solution (nuclear) provides the best solution for the human race going forward.

There is no point in having sources or solutions that offer more pros than cons in the long run. Or that which address the symptom and not the cause. When you treat the symptom, you only create more symptoms requiring ever more complex work arounds in a law of diminishing returns for the effort and investment.

What you showed is the short term capitol cost up front. Not the whole life cycle cost and economic impact factored in. Not all the energy storage to compensate for the lack of wind power and solar power which may last up to a week. Not all the spinning reserve mass that would be required to keep the system stable. Not all the recycling and toxic materials that go into renewables. Not the complex computer infrastructure needed to balance the miss match between load and generation. Not the amount of available land area required. Not the ecological disruption. Not the funding issues.

Nuclear power just works.

 

[william8]

Actually, what I showed is the current cost. The bottom stat did show nuclear getting cheaper over the life of the plant. But it was still more than solar and wind, and barely less that gas.

And for batteries, do you envision a day (let alone a week) where there is no light, and no wind in the entire country?

By your reasoning we just shut off everything but nuclear, and watch the grid collapse. No point having other sources.

 

[Chetlaham]

Actually, what I showed is the current cost. The bottom stat did show nuclear getting cheaper over the life of the plant. But it was still more than solar and wind, and barely less that gas.

And for batteries, do you envision a day (let alone a week) where there is no light, and no wind in the entire country?

By your reasoning we just shut off everything but nuclear, and watch the grid collapse. No point having other sources.

That cost doesn't take everything else needed to make solar and wind work. Including so much battery storage that it would cost at least billions more than nuclear.


A week with no wind and no sun in a large part of the US is very probable. So you need storage.

Or, you could add two or three times more solar and wind generation in every state in the US, then build out millions of miles of HVDC transmission lines to take power from the west to the far east. Or move that power the other way. But that again is billions if not trillions. And, when the sun is shining and wind blowing everywhere you now have three times the amount of generation capacity 2/3 of which is now idling still. That is not a return on investment.


On the other hand, nuclear has such a high up time that you only need a few extra reactors and a few extra turbines to compensate for an unexpected outage. Wherever money is invested into nuclear, nuclear delivers on the investment close to 100%. Assets are always being utilized.


If nuclear power does not have common mode failure points and is designed to tolerate seismic activity, hurricanes, cold and dust storms there is no need to diversify the generation portfolio by fuel type. Each nuclear station has uptime, and any defect of failure is contained to the smallest part of the system.

Think about transmission towers. There are tens of thousands of towers for many utilities are built the same way, with the same design, the same foundation, the same steal, the same bolts, the same make and model of insulators. The same wire. They are not falling down all at once. Think of all the distribution transformers used by a utility made by Howard Industries or GE Prolec. Same KVA, same oil, same winding technique, same engineering specs ect. Or the same meters. Or the same 15 and 20 amp circuit breakers in your panel all made identically as are the millions of GE THQL and Square D QO breakers in existence. None of them are failing in mass, despite being designed and made the same on a mass scale.

Nuclear is much the same way- there is more of the same, but that same is much less likely to break down.

The system remains stable and can tolerate a few unlikely generator trips.