Is it me or are top load washing machines really bad a washing?

[MrX]

I've experienced both front loaders and US-type top loaders and I have generally found front loading machines tend to produce better results more reliably.

The problem I've noticed with US front loading machines is that they are actually too big. This is a marketing issues more than a technical one.

I've used typical US top loading machines (an old Whirlpool in Boston and a 230V SpeedQueen in Ireland) and they really didn't take amazingly huge loads compared to a modern 8-9kg European machines. You can pack a European machine quite tightly and it will still wash the load very well. Where as if you pack a top loading agitator machine too tightly it just doesn't work as there it needs much more space to move the clothes through the water.

Also, as top loaders are trying to achieve less and less water usage, they simply don't work effectively. A TL machine cannot wash if there's a very low water level. The same is not true for a front loader. It will just take a lot longer to wash with less water, but it will still achieve a good result.

I also found that TL machines produced problems with lint which I have never ever experienced with a Euro FL machine. Shirts occasionally came out coated dark lint. I think this is simply due to the high levels of mechanical action vs the slow tumbling action. FL machines just don't cause lint to come off the clothes in the first place.

I also think that a lot of US front loaders are impractically big. If you have a tightly filled drum, it will wash and not go out of balance. If you have a huge drum that has a load of towels in it, the machine will end up having trouble balancing and I have noticed that seems to happen a lot on typical over-sized US FL machines.

There's an optimum size and it's bigger than a typical Euro traditional 5kg machine but it's smaller than some of the crazy sized machines that certain US manufacturers are pushing too.

The 8kg-10kg large Euro models seem to kinda fit the bill perfectly in my experience.

 

[passatdoc]

I had a GE TL before my current Frigidaire FL (2140). I had read that TLs didn't really rinse the soap out of clothes very well. As a result, the first load I ran in the new TL was a load of clean shirts and trousers from the closet, which I ran without detergent. Lo and behold, there were suds in the water. Then I did a soap-less load of clean towels and even more suds,almost as if I'd used close to a full dose of detergent. So while the old washer got stuff clean (in terms of soil/stain removal), it was not rinsing out the detergent in a thorough manner.

 

[rapunzel]

Okay, I admit it, it's my fault. I let myself get sucked

I am wrong and you are right. I have no idea about washing machines, I just like them for their buttons, lights, noises and splashing. Front loaders rule and top loaders just shouldn't be.

 

[launderess]

H-Axis Washers

Historically *always* have out performed top loaders with central "beaters" in both cleaning results and gentleness on fabrics. This is proven in that for much of the history of commercial laundries (excluding laundromats) the former were most always used going right back to steam driven "washers" and "extractors".

As for overloading a front loader with one heavy item such as thich and thirsty bathrobe; been there, done that and won't do it again. Every owner's manual for front loading washers one has ever seen advises one to make mixed loads. This makes sense especially for purely "timer" driven washers with crude to nil weight distribution systems which will spin after a series of pre-programmed attempts (or not). Of course bolted down and or otherwise robust suspension system commercial front loaders *will* spin regardless often of weight distribution. Have seen washers at local laundromat go into spin with very off balanced loads banging and shaking so badly one could feel the vibrations thought he floor several feet away.

 

[arbilab]

I've felt a solid concrete slab vibrate standing next to boltdown institutional washers (~35# Unimac, not even a "big" one).

Show me an institutional/industrial washer with an agitator and I'll buy you an order of onion rings at Sonic drive in. Shoot, I'll buy you a footlong chili-cheese coney besides.

I do believe--with evidence--that toploaders scrub better on small mixed loads. Also with evidence, that they don't rinse worth squat and that they don't do ANYthing worth squat when loaded to "capacity".

I mean really! If a 35# industrial washer shakes a concrete slab, what can an 18# TL household washer possibly accomplish at full load with one rinse fill? Roughly comparable to eating a whole pizza in one bite.

 

[spinspeed]

So I seem to have started a big old debate here. All contributions very valid and interesting. I think TL washers are more interesting than FL washers from a design point of view. I do think the way TL washers are going with using less and less water will be the demise of the TL washer. A TL washer will never be as economical to run as a FL washer. I think another advantage of FL washers is the fact they heat water up usually from cold which is great if using biological washing powders (that is if such a thing still exists? Not heard much mention of biological detergents, perhaps they are a thing of the past?). I do think you get better results with laundry washed in water that is heated up during the wash cycle rather than hot water straight from domestic supply. Also detergent much more concentrated in a small amount of water compared to a big tub of water in a TL machine.

One of the many great things about living in Australia is that we have choice. Whre as in the Uk these days go in to a department store and there will be a sea of FL washers all looking pretty much the same.

From an overload point of view, I am much more conscious of overloading one of my TL washers compared to the Zanussi which does cope very well when packed to the hilt and still delivers a very clean load.

Really good to read all your thoughts and comments.

Cheers

Simon

 

[qualin]

That's the thing that always kind of worried me about TL vs FL,

With the FL washer, the motor overheats and shuts off. As opposed to the TL washer which has a transmission. So not only can the motor overheat, but one could also damage the transmission as well. Considering that GE washers have transmissions with plastic gears, that's a little nervewracking.

To Arbilab, I've seen the White Westinghouse FL machines (Hard mount) shake so hard I swore they were going to break their mounts. It's freaky feeling the floor move!

To Launderess: You bring up a very valid point, about the one heavy item in the machine. I don't think any machine should self-destruct if you put clothing in them. Now, if you put in hockey pucks or tennis balls, that's a whole different story..

To Rapunzel: Your response made me LOL.. You are right, it's easy not to "Know It All" .. I also enjoy the splashing, the buttons and knobs and so forth. I'll be the first to admit that I enjoy the washing action both a top loader and a front loader. It's like eating apples or oranges, two different fruits but the end result is pretty much the same.

To MRX: Your response surprises me. The instruction manual for my washer says to "Loosely place" the items into the tub and not to pack them. It's my impression that a FL is loaded correctly by how high the clothing gets in the tub after all of the clothing gets wet. As in, the clothing should never reach more than 2/3 up the top of the tub, but ideally should be about 1/2 way up. For my Top Loader, I knew if I loaded it correctly by how the clothes turned in the tub during agitation.

 

[rapunzel]

"You are right, it's easy not to "Know It All&#3

Hey, waddaya mean?! I do know it all and who are you calling a fruit around here?

 

[launderess]

Self Destruct Washing Machine

@qualin:

Our local laundromat has a 50lb SQ front loader that has been taken out of service at least twice because of major customer caused damage.

Both recent times the same person packed the washer so full of clothing that when it went into spin it literally bashed the bearings and other parts to bits. IIRC after the second time the owner or the attendant (not sure which) personally banned the woman from ever setting foot in the place again.

Now mind you in any commercial setting and that includes laundromats employees paying attention can stop a washer before it damages itself. For coin-op washers choices range from popping the top and shutting the washer down, or probably much faster shutting off power via the circut breaker.

 

[launderess]

Rinsing

Again, automatic top loaders cause many to skip steps as required when washing was done manually or semi-automatically.

In the old days proper laundry technique required rinsing until the water was *clear*. This often took two, three or more rinses with the first being hot or warm if pure soaps were used in the wash. Many modern automatic top loaders have one rinse as part of the standard normal cycles. Some early machines did offer timer controlled second rinse options,but they soon went away during the "Energy Crisis" of the 1970's IIRC. This meant for Madame Average Housewive to get a second rinse she had to reset the washer manually. Using a second rinse also tied up the washer and could hold up the convoy of other loads waiting their turn, so many skipped this step.

Being as all this may one obtains great rinsing in the vintage Whirlpool portable using Tide "HE" liquid. One also always resets the washer for a second deep rinse, which along with three before and after spray rinses seems to do the job. One knows this because laundry bunged into the extractor/spin dryer gives off clear water.

 

[logixx]

Last time I used a TL, I also managed to overload it - though I followed the instructions (even loaded things strategically, rather than dumpin' it all in). It was a commercial Maytag with the black agi. Loaded it with a mixed load of darks and put it on Colors Super Wash. Strangely enough, the loaded rolled over during the main wash but hardly during the two rinses. Strange, as the water level seemed the same for wash and rinse.

My Duet manages full loads just fine. It, however, doesn't like my regular dark loads of jeans, pullovers and smalls like socks etc. Two weeks ago, I came into the laundry room and found most bottles on the floor in front of the machine - it spun so hard even the full 52-loads-bottle of Tide fell off!

The "Towels" videos show what I consider a full load:

 

[passatdoc]

@launderess: I remember seeing Second Rinse selectors on higher-end TLs as late as the mid-1990s. Some friends of mine bought FLs a few years ago to replace ten year old TL and it too had Second Rinse. It was usually a higher priced feature that I wasn't willing to pay for. Had I understand how poorly both of my former TLs rinsed, it might have been worth the extra cost.

 

[qualin]

To Logixx

Logixx,

I don't see how your towels can get clean by packing the washer that tight.

There's barely any room for anything to tumble at all. There is a little bit of tumbling, but not much.

What is the tub volume of that machine BTW? I probably would have split that into at least two loads.

 

[dj-gabriele]

@qualin

Cit. "I don't see how your towels can get clean by packing the washer that tight."

See the attached link for a load "at capacity" for a standard 5kg washing machine. The load in the machine is a weighted 5kg cottons load.
And mind that Whirpool is the most lower end manchine you can buy in Italy!
Everything comes clean all the time, so indeed in a front loader you can use all the available space to have clean clothing.
Try for youself and consider that every 9 litres of drum volume you can stuff 1 kg of cotton clothing. Your speed queen would be rated around 10/11 kg around here.

Also, the machine in Logixx video is rated at 10 kg if first generation or 11 kg if second generation so it's not overloaded at all!

http://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?32773

 

[matthewza]

South Africa front loaders

well...her in SA people like to stuff as much as possible in their machines. and all the people that i know that have had front loaders (including my mom and I) you stuff a front loader untill you cant get anymore in. forget this "only load untill you can stil put your hand in the drum" nonsense! once the load is wet, it does drop down and washes perfectly fine, especially towels. we used the wool and delicate cycles mostly when we stil had our Defy Automaid because the wash action is the same as normal just used more water and we got perfect results. just over 2 yrs ago we bought a 13kg Samsung top load (pulsator) (with 5 people in the house even washing 3 times a week the 5kg Defy wasnt cutting it anymore) and it does a good wash because i can choose to let it weigh the load or i can set the water level and if i fill it i just set it to maximum water and use the blanket programm because its stronger on full and heavy loads. and we have switched from warm rinses to cold and i havent had soap issues. we use 90mls of Skip regular per load. and I set the samsung to only do 1 rinse. the LG 8.2kg does 2 rinses (i cant change it) and i still get good results even with 120mls Skip perfect white in the whites

 

[pierreandreply4]

i do not think its recomended to overload a washer and that

i have a whirlpool duet front loader and when i wash i am always careful not to overload my duet washer to avoided the motor to burn my old top load washer the motor was burn because of over loading it did its cycle normaly but when i went to put the clothes in the dryer the washer did not drain or spin (my old inglis top load) from 1993 to 2004 and that was around 1996 so me when i wash even do my duet is a large capacaty i think its a 3.8 super capacety i do not remember i always make sure not to overload because i do not wish for the washer motor to burn again.

 

[logixx]

The volume is 92 liters or 3.25 cubic feet. Remember that European front loaders have longer cycles than US machines. My Duet takes 1:55 hrs for a warm (104F) wash and ten minutes more for a hot (140F) wash - with cold fill and a full load. Of course, there are also longer cycles that promise A+++ energy efficiency. However, I usually don't think towels need a four hour cycle.

Alex

 

[rapunzel]

The more I read these responses...

...the more convinced I am that there is some weird psychology going on.

If you guys have convinced yourselves that you can regularly stuff your front loaders beyond capacity and achieve better than mediocre results, as well as not cause any issues with your washers' bearings and electronics, you have to be kidding yourselves; not me.

You can argue your opinions till the cows come home, convince and slap each other on the bum swearing on someone's grave that you know what you are talking about, but understand this - I wouldn't let you anywhere near my laundry.

Do front loaders rinse better than regular top loaders? That depends. If you are talking about front loaders of yore the answer could be 'maybe'. If you are talking about 'high efficiency, low water use' front loaders the answer is definitively 'No' and that is not moot, it's a fact.

Now arbilab, you may just have to buy me onion rings at the Sonic drive in. There are plenty of commercial establishments that use top loaders. They are called laundromats. Many residential care facilities still use them too and they work better than those anemic, water-saving commercial front loaders when it comes to washing out fecal matter, blood and vomit first time around.

Now why don't they use top loaders in big, industrial laundries? Because it would neither be technically appropriate nor affordable, practical nor ergonomic to design and build top loading washers of such large proportions. To compare domestic front loaders with industrial ones makes little sense. It's like comparing a Chevy pick-up with a Caterpillar Mining Truck. I am sure that it is possible to design a 200 lbs capacity top loader or an agitator tunnel washer, but who would even want to try?

As far as clean outcomes from such large industrial establishments are concerned, they are neither consistent nor impressive. I managed a residential care facility and had to change laundry services thrice in one year, only to discover that they all work to the same standards; which means haphazard to none. Fortunately we laundered residents' personal things on premise, but all facility linen and towels were sent out to a large industrial place. Apart from consistently losing our stock (all of which was marked), towels and sheets would regularly come back with bleach burns, frayed edges and stains. I asked one of the managers if they were washing our linen in Parramatta river using rocks. Sometimes there were boot marks and wheel imprints from their laundry trolleys. So, no, I am not impressed with industrial laundry services, nor how much they charged for their inconsistent work.

 

[foraloysius]

I don't think frontloaders should be overloaded, after all you want a decent wash result. But North Americans have the habit of underloading their frontloaders, I thought we had established that already in another thread.

As for Qualin's Huebsch frontloader, I think filling half full is really underloading. The machine uses more water than most other frontloaders. I think that machine should easily wash around 8kg of laundry. Due to short wash times it may be wise not to fill it up totally, but leave some space.

As for European frontloaders, the rule for loading was always to leave some space at the top, about the width of a clenched fist. American frontloaders, especially the ones with tilted drums, might need a bit more space at the top.

 

[dj-gabriele]

you can regularly stuff your front loaders beyond capacity

That's indeed just silly

I was just trying to show that a front loader can be stuffed to rated capacity vs. underloading it and it will perform in a fantastic manner