Is it me or are top load washing machines really bad a washing?

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Last time I used a TL, I also managed to overload it - though I followed the instructions (even loaded things strategically, rather than dumpin' it all in). It was a commercial Maytag with the black agi. Loaded it with a mixed load of darks and put it on Colors Super Wash. Strangely enough, the loaded rolled over during the main wash but hardly during the two rinses. Strange, as the water level seemed the same for wash and rinse.

My Duet manages full loads just fine. It, however, doesn't like my regular dark loads of jeans, pullovers and smalls like socks etc. Two weeks ago, I came into the laundry room and found most bottles on the floor in front of the machine - it spun so hard even the full 52-loads-bottle of Tide fell off!

The "Towels" videos show what I consider a full load:

 
@launderess: I remember seeing Second Rinse selectors on higher-end TLs as late as the mid-1990s. Some friends of mine bought FLs a few years ago to replace ten year old TL and it too had Second Rinse. It was usually a higher priced feature that I wasn't willing to pay for. Had I understand how poorly both of my former TLs rinsed, it might have been worth the extra cost.
 
To Logixx

Logixx,

I don't see how your towels can get clean by packing the washer that tight.

There's barely any room for anything to tumble at all. There is a little bit of tumbling, but not much.

What is the tub volume of that machine BTW? I probably would have split that into at least two loads.
 
@qualin

Cit. "I don't see how your towels can get clean by packing the washer that tight."

See the attached link for a load "at capacity" for a standard 5kg washing machine. The load in the machine is a weighted 5kg cottons load.
And mind that Whirpool is the most lower end manchine you can buy in Italy!
Everything comes clean all the time, so indeed in a front loader you can use all the available space to have clean clothing.
Try for youself and consider that every 9 litres of drum volume you can stuff 1 kg of cotton clothing. Your speed queen would be rated around 10/11 kg around here.

Also, the machine in Logixx video is rated at 10 kg if first generation or 11 kg if second generation so it's not overloaded at all!

http://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?32773
 
South Africa front loaders

well...her in SA people like to stuff as much as possible in their machines. and all the people that i know that have had front loaders (including my mom and I) you stuff a front loader untill you cant get anymore in. forget this "only load untill you can stil put your hand in the drum" nonsense! once the load is wet, it does drop down and washes perfectly fine, especially towels. we used the wool and delicate cycles mostly when we stil had our Defy Automaid because the wash action is the same as normal just used more water and we got perfect results. just over 2 yrs ago we bought a 13kg Samsung top load (pulsator) (with 5 people in the house even washing 3 times a week the 5kg Defy wasnt cutting it anymore) and it does a good wash because i can choose to let it weigh the load or i can set the water level and if i fill it i just set it to maximum water and use the blanket programm because its stronger on full and heavy loads. and we have switched from warm rinses to cold and i havent had soap issues. we use 90mls of Skip regular per load. and I set the samsung to only do 1 rinse. the LG 8.2kg does 2 rinses (i cant change it) and i still get good results even with 120mls Skip perfect white in the whites
 
i do not think its recomended to overload a washer and that

i have a whirlpool duet front loader and when i wash i am always careful not to overload my duet washer to avoided the motor to burn my old top load washer the motor was burn because of over loading it did its cycle normaly but when i went to put the clothes in the dryer the washer did not drain or spin (my old inglis top load) from 1993 to 2004 and that was around 1996 so me when i wash even do my duet is a large capacaty i think its a 3.8 super capacety i do not remember i always make sure not to overload because i do not wish for the washer motor to burn again.
 
The volume is 92 liters or 3.25 cubic feet. Remember that European front loaders have longer cycles than US machines. My Duet takes 1:55 hrs for a warm (104F) wash and ten minutes more for a hot (140F) wash - with cold fill and a full load. Of course, there are also longer cycles that promise A+++ energy efficiency. However, I usually don't think towels need a four hour cycle.

Alex
 
The more I read these responses...

...the more convinced I am that there is some weird psychology going on.

If you guys have convinced yourselves that you can regularly stuff your front loaders beyond capacity and achieve better than mediocre results, as well as not cause any issues with your washers' bearings and electronics, you have to be kidding yourselves; not me.

You can argue your opinions till the cows come home, convince and slap each other on the bum swearing on someone's grave that you know what you are talking about, but understand this - I wouldn't let you anywhere near my laundry.

Do front loaders rinse better than regular top loaders? That depends. If you are talking about front loaders of yore the answer could be 'maybe'. If you are talking about 'high efficiency, low water use' front loaders the answer is definitively 'No' and that is not moot, it's a fact.

Now arbilab, you may just have to buy me onion rings at the Sonic drive in. There are plenty of commercial establishments that use top loaders. They are called laundromats. Many residential care facilities still use them too and they work better than those anemic, water-saving commercial front loaders when it comes to washing out fecal matter, blood and vomit first time around.

Now why don't they use top loaders in big, industrial laundries? Because it would neither be technically appropriate nor affordable, practical nor ergonomic to design and build top loading washers of such large proportions. To compare domestic front loaders with industrial ones makes little sense. It's like comparing a Chevy pick-up with a Caterpillar Mining Truck. I am sure that it is possible to design a 200 lbs capacity top loader or an agitator tunnel washer, but who would even want to try?

As far as clean outcomes from such large industrial establishments are concerned, they are neither consistent nor impressive. I managed a residential care facility and had to change laundry services thrice in one year, only to discover that they all work to the same standards; which means haphazard to none. Fortunately we laundered residents' personal things on premise, but all facility linen and towels were sent out to a large industrial place. Apart from consistently losing our stock (all of which was marked), towels and sheets would regularly come back with bleach burns, frayed edges and stains. I asked one of the managers if they were washing our linen in Parramatta river using rocks. Sometimes there were boot marks and wheel imprints from their laundry trolleys. So, no, I am not impressed with industrial laundry services, nor how much they charged for their inconsistent work.
 
I don't think frontloaders should be overloaded, after all you want a decent wash result. But North Americans have the habit of underloading their frontloaders, I thought we had established that already in another thread.

As for Qualin's Huebsch frontloader, I think filling half full is really underloading. The machine uses more water than most other frontloaders. I think that machine should easily wash around 8kg of laundry. Due to short wash times it may be wise not to fill it up totally, but leave some space.

As for European frontloaders, the rule for loading was always to leave some space at the top, about the width of a clenched fist. American frontloaders, especially the ones with tilted drums, might need a bit more space at the top.
 
you can regularly stuff your front loaders beyond capacity

That's indeed just silly :)

I was just trying to show that a front loader can be stuffed to rated capacity vs. underloading it and it will perform in a fantastic manner
 
Stuff comes out with soap scum marks, lint and not that clean.

I have 26 top loaders currently hooked up in our basement that I use. Can someone explain to me why none of the above stated issues happens to me normally? Of course on rare occasion a tissue gets left in a pocket and even then most of my solid tub machines rinse most of that right over the top of the tub.

I had a Whirlpool Duet for a couple of years and I felt it washed just as well as a top loader, I never felt it rinsed as well as most of my solid-tub top loaders. You could always detect detergent scent in the clothes no matter how little I used in the Duet. Normally I use very little detergent, 1/4 cup of Tide or Tide with bleach + 1/8 cup phosphate in my standard capacity machines. 1/2 Cup detergent and 1/4 cup phosphate in my large capacity to loaders. Very rarely does something come out not clean and detergent scent free.

Also I don't buy the fact that long slow stroke agitation in vintage top loaders are particular rough on fabrics. My 15 years of using these machines weekly has shown otherwise.
 
Tip to avoid detergent smells in a front load

well here is my tip to avoid detergent smell if you do not went your clothes smelling like detergent perfumes after washing in fl washer you can eather a) switch to a non perfume detergent b)use the extra rinses option of your fl washer i myself before i had my duet washer use a topload washer from 1993 to 2004 year i switch to my duet washer and since 2004 and using my duet i am avoiding strong smell detergents and if i see on the detergent label lots of flowers i know that for me this means strong perfume sent so i have to use brands that the detergent smell is mild so far the one thats mild engough is the detergent brand la parissienne he original that i can use purex detegent brand arm and hammer with oxy clean for both he or non he machine or sunlight all machine detergent that have mild detergent smell
 
To further what Robert said...

I am stunned by the folks who try to assert that top load washers have marked limitations in washability, and especially the notion that they overall don't wash well. If I were to switch today to a front loader, I would have to adjust to using it, no doubt. Maybe that is true as well of those who use a top loader after mostly using front loaders? That could explain some unexpected results.

I have used long-stroke, and now "old fashioned" American top loading washers for my entire life, outside of 18 months when I used a short stroke top loader as one of two washers I was using (before finding AW.org).

I have certainly not been walking around for 47 years with dirty clothes, or even clothes that would be noticeably cleaner if washed in something else. Nor have my clothes been beaten up, worn out, or expired early.

Time to get our feet back on the ground.

Gordon
 
To further what Robert said...

I am stunned by the folks who try to assert that top load washers have marked limitations in washability, and especially the notion that they overall don't wash well. Back in 1980, I remember the census said we had 200 million people in the United States. Since most all Americans were washing in top loaders outside of those relative few with old Bendix machines and the like, or new westinghouse machines, I guess we were all filthy....

I have used long-stroke, and now "old fashioned" American top loading washers for my entire life, outside of 18 months when I used a short stroke top loader as one of two washers I was using (before finding AW.org). If I were to start using a front loader today, I no doubt would have an adjustment period in learning to use the machine to its best ability. Perhaps that is true too of front load users who use top loaders on occasion?

I have certainly not been walking around for 47 years with dirty clothes, or even clothes that would be noticeably cleaner if washed in something else. My clothes, have not be beaten up, worn out, or otherwise expired early either. Most go to charity looking new or just 'broken in'.

It's time to get our feet back on the ground.

Gordon
 
TL degraded performance

I would say that over the past 30+ years, TL performance has degraded a bit. With the dumbing down of water temps combined with the corkscrew agitator that was marketed as giving the housewife the ability to stuff as much laundry in the machine as she could because she might want to just get through the laundry rather than sort and do it right. And finally, with the reduction of water allowed per unit of laundry, performance circles the drain...

Malcolm
 
Detergent smell

I have noticed that European detergents/softeners leave a stronger residual scent in clothes compared to Australian and American products. When relatives come to visit from Germany, it doesn't matter how often I wash their clothes here, they will still smell of their laundry products.

I use regular Tide, Cold Power, Bosistos Eucalyptus detergent, Softly, Ivory Snow and, occasionally, I do add a little Cuddly softener or a Bounce dryer sheet for good measure. The only detergent that has ever left a lingering scent in my clothes was Tide Mountain Spring. Even out of the dryer clothes would still smell strongly of that. Though, with any of the other products, once the laundry is dry there is virtually no residual scent left. Clothes just smell fresh and clean.

Front loader performance should not be excluded from your statement Malcolm. The trend is such that all appliances are now designed primarily to satisfy efficiency and globalized manufacturing standards. Performance has become a moot point in an environment where everything is disposable. Washing machines and other appliances are now a political issue and a lot of money changes hands to push specific products for all kinds of reasons, but not necessarily the right ones.
 
I've resisted....

..until now.

Personally, I've found that front loaders filled to capacity will generally provide better results than a top loader similarly filled.

There, I've said it.

What I think people are missing is 'What is capacity?' In the US/North America, it is measured in CU FT, which is very hard for the consumer to replicate. How many single bed sheets is 2 CU FT? Everywhere else, it's in kilograms. I can weigh a sheet/jeans/underwear and load accordingly if I so wish....

So here we go. Speed Queen sell their front and top load machines's in Oz and we get told that the 3.3 CU FT capacity equates to 8.2kg - that's 5.5 lb to the CU FT.

So what I think someone should do to put these claims of washing and rinsing to the test is actually do it. We all know what capacity our machines are meant to be in either lb, kg or CU FT.

A cotton single bed sheet weighs about lb/500gm....a queens size one probably close to double...

So, lets have someone go and dirty up a sample sheet with some general dirt from the garden and load their machine with sheets...

As an example, my 6.5kg machine should be able to take:

4 QS sheets
5 Single sheets

...and wash and rinse them perfectly.

Now, the question is:

'Will a modern Speed Queen top load or front load machine, which doesn't qualify for energy rebates in the US and only has a 3 star water rating here, wash and rinse a capacity load (16 single bed sheets in this instance) to a better, the same or worse standard as a vintage toploader/front loader or modern HE machine?'

No bleach and no softener allowed!
 
I have used both styles and have found that I have almost never had an issue with clothes coming out clean and fresh smelling when using a older top load washer. That being said, my daily driver is a Maytag Neptune front load (a MAH7500 to be exact). I have had ZERO issues with this one as well as the MAH4000 before her. I use common sense loading with it. Load it loosely up to the top of the drum. If you have to use your hand to shove it in, you've overloaded it. And it is very easy to damage a frontloader by massive overloading. Maybe not the motor at first (but it will eventually happen) but you can do some serious damage to the machine in general and the load as well. I've seen enough DOA's in my line of work from doing exactly that.

Olav, your appliance psychology had me laughing so hard, I almost brought out a lung! It makes total sense, tho. Anytime I go into a customer's home to repair a troubled appliance, all I have to do is look around. Somewhere, there's a Frigidaire appliance in the home sending out negative waves. All I do is drag it out to the curb and all is well in the house! (Ducks and runs!)

RCD
 
To Ronhic

Oh fantastic.. Man, what a great thread.

I have wondered what the official "Capacity" of my Huebsch was. 8 KG works out to about 17.6 lbs, which is pretty close to my old GE Top Loader, which I believe was an 18 lb machine.

7 pairs of 40x30 demin jeans is about 12 lbs, they stuffed into the washer nicely, I could have probably put another pair or two in before the machine was completely stuffed. My GE Top loader could handle about six pairs with half decent turnover, anything more and everything just floats.

I think I should make a video to demonstrate demin jean loading..

To Logixx: The capacity on your machine is pretty close to what mine is. Although, the video makes it look like a 6 cu.ft machine. :)

I think a test is in order here.. I should gather up all of the towels in the house and see how many of them I can pack into the washer, to compare with Logixx's video.

There used to be a time, living as a bachelor, I would go to the laundromat with about 3 months worth of laundry, find the largest front loader I could find, which was usually a Wascomat Triple Loader... and then pack in as many clothes as it would fit. Almost to the point where I could swear the middle was still dry...

I stopped doing that because I found that my clothes weren't coming out as clean as I liked them to be and I also found that using a few double loaders instead did cost more but yielded better results. (My own personal opinion.)

My opinion always has been that whatever the professionals use, I want to use. Mainly because the professionals always want the best results, right?
 
I have no personal experience with FL washers, but I will say this.....all of the people I know who bought FL washers either complain constantly about performance or have replaced them with TL machines. Personally, I'll keep my new SQ (with adjusted water level and lid switch bypass) as long as I can. Have never had clothes washed in anything but a Maytag or now my Speed Queen and have some shirts that are over 10 years old and still look new, so the wear factor must not be that great. I don't overload and I sort like my mom did..and use hot water when needed. I also use real bleach when it's called for. I do wish I could do like our parent's generation did....sort, load, toss in the phosphated detergent, turn the knob, close the lid and come back later for clean clothes....I NEVER remember my mom having to pretreat or soak anything...she just washed it in the machine and we had "June Cleaver" clean clothes...
 
7 pairs of 40x30 demin jeans is about 12 lbs

...then add another 3 pairs and you'll 'almost' be at stated capacity.....

 

Then do the same capacity test in a European machine with lower water usage, but longer cycle.....and again in a top load machine using the 5.5lb : CU FT and see how we go....

 

I'll bet my 'you know what's' that the front load machines will clean better at stated capacity than a top load machine will....especially a European machine with their long cycles.
 
Robert & Gordon, I agree with you. We usually double rinsed with a top loader, but stuff was clean and well rinsed. Then again, our water was very hot, hotter than most people can use today, so that probably made a difference and for many years non-perma press laundry was rinsed in warm water also. People who decry the rinsing ability of top loaders today are probably also rinsing in cold water and using a non-phosphated detergent. Whether I use one of my toploaders or my Mieles or the Creda, the washing results are great, but I use a phosphate booster with the detergent which also improves rinsing.

And, on the other side of the coin, in the 50s and 60s, I knew a lot of people who used front loaders who always had clean clothing. My family was among them for some years.
 
I think ALL manufacturers do everything they can to push the "capacity" boundaries to make their product as appealing as possible to the public. As such the public is of the mindset that “Bigger is Better”.

I have this 1988 Montgomery Wards, Norge built washer (below) which claims it can handle a 20 lb load.   Boy I’d like to know who dreamed up that number!   I washed a load in it a couple weeks ago (shot video too) and weighed the laundry on my postal scale before putting it in the washer.   Total weight = 12 lbs.  Deduct the basket (2 lbs) the laundry was 10 lbs.   It consisted of a weeks worth of socks, undies, t-shirts, some long sleeve dress shirts, a pair of slacks plus 2 twin sheets and a pillow case.   With the burpalator burpin away, and at the highest water level, it managed the 10 lb load pretty well.   But I kept watching how everything was moving and saying to myself “There is no way in hell this thing could handle a 20 lb load!!"   Makes me wonder where these manufacturers came up with these capacity numbers.  

Also, I feel the whole "cubic feet" capacity rating is useless.  It's funny too, I bought a 2009 TOL Kenmore Elite steam FL washer.  When I was looking at them, there was a blue one and the red one next to it, except for the color the machines looked identical.   Until I started looking closer that is.  The RED one was assembled in Germany, rated at 4.0 cu. ft. and had a top spin speed of I believe 1300 rpm.   The BLUE I ended up buying (the red one was sold, dammit) was assembled in Mexico, rated at 4.4 cu. ft. and has a top spin speed of 1100 rpm.   I went back and forth looking at the differences of the wash basket, I even measured the internal dimensions, which was EXACTLY the same on both.   The difference.... was the paddles, or baffles.   The RED washer with 4.0 rating had LARGER paddles/baffles then the BLUE washer rated @ 4.4 cu. ft.   I found it hard to believe only those smaller paddles could make up the difference of 0.4 cu. ft.

 

The link below is the M. Wards video for those interested.

 

Kevin 

 



revvinkevin++1-25-2012-22-35-54.jpg
 
I have found that the 5 kg Miele handles, with ease, a larger load than my standard tub Maytag so I don't think Miele inflates their capacity.

The other day, I wanted some of the 180F wash water so I moved the drain hose of the W1918 to a bucket. When the wash drained, there was less than three gallons of water over and above what was in the saturated clothes because after that amount drained, water stopped coming out and the pump stopped for the first rinse to begin. This is mighty economical water usage. It does fill to a higher level for rinsing, but the small amount of water for each fill shows why FLs need very good water extraction between water changes to rinse well. This machine uses the older cycle technology and gives 5 rinses with increasingly stronger spins after each one. The last rinse is as clear as can be before the 1600 rpm final spin.
 
One Can Get Excellent Results With A Toploading Washing Mach

However much will depend upon the design of the unit and you'll be using quite allot more water for most loads especially whites.

To do the same white cottons wash I'd do in the Miele (incoming water around 95F heated to 120F or 140F) in my vintage Whirlpool toploader:

Pre-wash or pre-soak in lukewarm water for 8mins to 10mins (maybe longer) depending upon stain/soil level.

Main wash in *HOT* water (tap water atm is around 130F because the boilers are on for heating, but may have to add a kettle or two of water boiled on the range), for 14 minutes.

In both the pre-wash and main cycles thankfully have a stash of various vintage phosphate detergents can use along with "Biz" (also NOS) bleach and La France bluing. May even try washing a load of towels in vintage Ivory Snow with some STPP added.

Rinses would be two or more until the water drains clear, wash is bunged into the extractor to wring out more water, then to the dryer.

Am not sure how much water the Whirlpool portable takes but it's much more than the five gallons or so my Miele uses for the main wash, and the ten for each of the five rinses.

So on balance whilst the toploading Whirlpool *may* be faster it holds less than the Miele, uses more water and requires more energy in terms of several warm or hot water changes.

Being as all this may given my vast stash of vintage detergents for top loading washers may have to use the "Whirlpool" method to whittle down the stock.
 
"Detergent Smell" Of European Products

Ever since the *dark ages* of laundry there has been a tradition of scenting freshly washed linens especially in France, Germany etc. Suppose if persons weren't going to bathe that often bed and body linens (outer garments were often not washed because the materials and or construction couldn't withstand the process), as well as one's person were heavily perfumed to mask the whiff.

Usually items were placed into chests or drawers with sachets of dried herbs, flowers or other perfumes and allowed to remain until they were well scented.

In modern laundry habits detergents and fabric softeners have replaced this method and am here to tell you it can be quite an experience. Many American expats living in France for instance are bowled over by the heavy scented laundry products even those for use on baby's things. And yes the scents often linger days or months after being laundered and don't wash away easily.

Apparently the term "unscented" hasn't really caught on for many places on the other side of the pond. Henkel Persil used to have a scent free version (Sensitive) but some darned fool decided that too should be perfumed.

Even the much loved "Savon de Marsielle" scent found in French and many other European detergents isn't the clean scent of the true soap. Rather a strong concoction of chemicals that some bright blub thinks smells like the stuff.

Not that American products are often any better; oh no. P&G in particular has versions of Tide and Downy that reek of a cross between a cheap knocking shop and a mutton dressed as lamb such as one might find working in such a place.

Happily P&G along with a others offer some unscented and lightly scented products for the North American market.

Being as all this may one still pines for the scents of detergents of old. Most has a fresh clean scent that simply can only be described as "fresh laundry". [this post was last edited: 1/29/2012-18:45]
 
Overhere in the Netherlands perfumes never have been as bad as the French detergents. Usually I find the German detergents also less perfumed than the French ones.

But for people who have an allergy for certain chemicals used for scents or people who are very senstive to scents there is a detergent on the market called Neutral. Apparently it has no scent at all. I have never used it, but I have used their fabric softener, also without a scent.

Besides laundry products they also have a whole line of body care products.

foraloysius++1-29-2012-13-33-35.jpg
 

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