Is it me or are top load washing machines really bad a washing?

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spinspeed

spinspeed

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Oct 4, 2009
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216
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Far North New South Wales Australia (originally Lo
I love TL washers and have 6 of varying ages and makes. Besides my Fisher & Paykel intuitive and smart drive, the others just don't wash or rinse well. Stuff comes out with soap scum marks, lint and not that clean. My Zanussi IZ front load washer which is getting on for 15 years old produces perfect results every time, granted a hot cotton wash takes over 2 hours but the results are perfect. I make sure I don't over load the top loaders and avoid mixing fabric types but still, the results are most of the time not satisfactory. the worst offender is my Maytag Atlantis washer. Love the dryer though.

Just my thoughts and comments on this Sunday.

Simon
 
Still Saturday Here But..

All automatic and even semi-automatic washing machines work on variations of hand washing. The two main choices are using brute mechanical force (beating/rubbing if one will) against a stationary and often hard object (wash board, rock, plank, beater, agitator, etc), or flexing the laundry through water in such a away that the chemicals contained therein will work to separate soil and stains from fabrics.
The former is much harder on textiles and usually requires less time, whilst the latter while often taking longer is more gentle.

Using top loading washing machines often requires one continue with steps used from days when washing was done via hand. Stains should be pre-treated, very badly soiled laundry pre-soaked or pre-washed, then followed by a main wash with one, two or more rinses depending upon how much and what sort of cleansers were used.

Top loading washers also share a history with "hand laundry" in that for the things to give good results one needs *lots* of water. Low water to textile ratios often mean laundry will be beaten to death by the agitator, but also removed soils and muck will not suspend properly and or drain away. Many older machines had "over flow" rinses which helped push soap scum and muck over the top of the tub to drain away. This was their take on the fact when was was done by hand in tubs or even with semi-automatic washers textiles were lifted *out* of the wash water to be wrung and placed into rinse baths leaving the muck filled water behind. Obviously in an automatic washer that isn't possible.

For very badly soiled and or dirty laundry one never uses the Whirlpool TL, but my Miele instead. On the rare occasions one does use either the WP or Hoover TT for that matter to tackle such things they are pre-soaked or pre-washed first in warm water, then laundered.
 
TL's Vs FL's

The debate for TL's Vs FL's could go on forever....and i'm not going to get into it, but i like my TL's but i do also see the real benefits of FL's as well

Simon...the Maytag Atlantis was never renowned for good lint removal, you only have to check out various forums in Australia about the many, many complaints people had about this machine.

I even once had a Maytag service engineer ask if i had issues with linting with the 'Performa' i once had (the Atlantis are just souped up Performa's with more solid state controls and the stainless bowl) and yeah...that machine was horrible with linting.

When i asked should i re-furb an older Maytag A512 or buy a new Atlantis, he replied....'refurb the 512'

Cheers
Leon
 
I'm thinking that maybe if you're getting soap scum marks, is it possible that too much is being added?

Also (this is just a guess) maybe the rinse water is too cold?
 
my advice

well here is my advice here if you have a washer that has a true warm rinse i would advise that you do your wash and first spin in your atlantis washer but for the rinse portion of the cycle switch to your washer that has a true warm rinse for the rinse to remove all the suds from your clothes i know because my 1993 dd inglis superb 2 (whirlpool) washer when it was doing a poor rinse in cold water to remove suds i had to put it after it did its first rinse to the main wash cycle to have it preform a warm rinse witch remove the suds fully.
 
Hi Spinspeed,

Apart from your F&P and Maytag washers, what other top loaders do you currently own?

You may not be aware that top loaders can be very sensitive, but they are not as stingy, temperamental and precious as front loaders. It could well be that your top loaders are picking up vibes from your Zanussi washer and from you. As a result your top loaders may have self-confidence issues that translate to poor performance. They could also be allergic to your clothes, your attitude or there could be detergent issues or all of the above. If it is all of the above I would revert to hand washing clothes as the only workable alternative.

Fisher and Paykel top loaders are known for their self-confidence and superior abilities, but many other brands are not so lucky and they need to be treated with special consideration to coax out the best in them. You probably are already aware that there is an ancient rivalry going on between top and front loaders. This has been demonstrated on this website on numerous occasions.

European front loaders are also known for their attitude and it isn't advisable to place them together with non-European vertical axis washers. That is why Australian appliance retailers are very careful to separate the two on the shop floor. They are never placed next to each other, ever.

You need to understand that there is a conflict in your laundry right now. If you don't do something immediately this conflict will escalate and the consequences are too terrible to contemplate.

Australian laundries are being infiltrated by European and Asian washing machines as I type this. These machines arrive here by boat (often illegally) and flood the market. Our own government is complicit and uses tax payers' money to surreptitiously fund this activity, which has already led to the demise of Australian made washing machines and the abandonment of the Australian gold standard for clean, well-rinsed and sweet-smelling laundry.

My advice to you is to go into your laundry right now, disconnect the front loader and send it to the tip. Ideally, if you live off the ground floor just throw it out the window - that's even more effective. You do this and I promise that, soon, you will notice superior laundry results from your other top loaders as their self-confidence improves and they will feel valued once more.
 
Top Load!

The main thing about top loaders is! get a good one, if you are using anything new , especially those things which are so called energy efficient, then NO they dont wash well, if you use a old Maytag and fill it over 3/4 full NO it wont wash worth a darn, Get a Whirlpool or Kenmore belt drive, a Norge,or a Kelvinator...and of course if you have ever used a Philco or Frigidaire....well, that speaks for itself, I have not seen a front loader yet that will get the soap out of the clothes as well as a top loader...except for slant front Westinghouses and old Bendixes!
 
Thanks guys, yes, a very interesting debate, horizontal V vertical axis. I like both options and I like to have both front and top load machines, they both have their advantages and disadvantages. An interesting concept that there maybe some psychological issues going on in my laundry room and perhaps some unhealthy rivalry. Perhaps some unresolved issues from the past. I treat all my washers with love and respect but I have to be honest, the Zanussi does get a little more attention, mostly because it does such a fantastic job. Stuff comes out spotless, no lint or soap scum and at 1600 spin speed, very dry if not a tad creased.

So, I have a large Simpson TL, a Wastinghouse Laundromat and an old GE Filter Flo plus the F&P intuitive and smart drive, both great machines. The Westinghouse and the F&Ps are in the garage, once laundry room has been renovated I will have room to hook them all up.

The Maytag can do a warm rinse but never really thought of using warm water for rinsing. I sometimes set it to do a second deep rinse, not sure it makes much difference. It has a really short spray rinse too. The F&Ps both have superb spray rinses, you can even do away with the deep rinse and have an extended spray rinse, this is a water saving feature.

I also note that the Maytag is really noisy, always has been during agitate and spin.Just the motor running and the transmission. No banging or knocking just loud. My old GE Filter Flo is much quieter. I have a short video of my laundry room. We are currently renovating our house, the laundry will get done once the rest of the house has been fixed up.

 
After half a lifetime with FLs and half with TLs, TLs wash fine but they don't rinse for squat. And the new ones that use a teacup of water, whaddya expect?
 
I converted from using a GE toploader to a Huebsch frontloader. We do notice that our clothing is cleaner. Some of my shirts had soap streaks on them. They went away once we started using a front loader.

The one thing that really bugged me about our GE is that if I washed jeans, they would just float up to the top of the tub and stay there, just moving back and forth, rather than being pulled down by the auger.

Worse yet, if I was washing things like sheets, I'd have to open up the lid and use a wooden dowel to push them back down into the water because they'd billow up. Not exactly a problem with front loaders.

I think that top loaders are good at washing certain kinds of loads, but front loaders are good at washing all kinds of loads.

The biggest thing though is this.. If you overload a top loader, you can actually damage the machine, especially if there isn't enough water. If you overload a front loader, the clothes just spin around.

In my humble opinion, I believe that front loaders do a better job. This is from my own experiences. Conventional Top loaders do an adequate job. Washplate-style top loaders suck and "Reduced water" centrepost agitator top loaders suck even harder.
 
"If you overload a front loader"

If you really overload a front loader it just stops. There is no spinning or tumbling, because the machine is overloaded and spinning or tumbling will burn out the motor. The overload protector is triggered and that's it. I've had this happen to me once or twice and it can get very messy. If you overload a top loader you just take out a couple of items and the problem is fixed.

In the humble opinion of our Australian CR test lab there isn't much difference between the cleaning results of many top and front loaders. Most score in the 80 percentile range and all clean below 90% effectiveness. Though, most high efficiency front loaders, that are ambitiously designed to wash and rinse large loads in less than 50 liters of water, have been found lacking in the rinsing department. CR here consistently rates rinse performance for top loaders higher than those front loaders that are rated most water efficient.
 
"If you really overload a front loader it just stops. There is no spinning or tumbling, because the machine is overloaded and spinning or tumbling will burn out the motor."

Now that is nonsense! If a frontloader is overloaded the motor isn't overstressed. The motor doesn't have to work harder. As a matter of fact a frontloader loaded with a few heavy items but not overloaded has to work harder than a fully loaded machine.

I have stuffed my frontloaders (and H-axis toploaders) with towels quite a few times just to see how they work. These machines just finished their job.

My SIL had an H-axis toploader. I have seen her stuff that machine. Nor room for a clenched fist. I said something about it and she responded she always did that. That machine was (ab)used every day for 12 years. Then the timer got bad. No signs of too much stress on the motor.
 
Hi Louis

So you are saying that front loaders do not need overload protection and that overloading is never an issue and, in fact, impossible. Are you really sure about that?
 
On new FL's deffinatley no

Rapunzel,
I just followed what label said. I have a 7kg machine, and once (only once) I tried to fill it up with 7kg. It all fit inside, but I almost broke my arm pressing laundry in it.

So, unless you are some kind of a SuperMan I think overloading is really impossible xD

It is amazing how stuff came cleaner then i thought they would (but it's not close to cleaness of normally loaded wash).
 
Any machine with an electric motor needs overload protection, but most overloaded machines will struggle to comlete the cycle, however imperfect the results might be. Jeff was called to service a WP machine in a house rented to students. The machine was pulled away from the wall at an angle. Trying to figure out what had happened, he restarted the washer. What he discovered was that the machine was packed with three baskets of laundry and with each stroke of the agitator, the whole machine jerked from side to side on the floor because there was no other way to diffuse the motion of the agitator. He showed the property manager that, even wet, the load filled three laundry baskets. It was not even a coin-op machine, but some lazy kid who must not have had any experience in taking care of himself, who could not even do laundry. Once emptied, the machine still worked. The landlord said the service call would be charged to the oaf responsible.

I have seen front loaders packed so full that no tumble action can be observed, but they complete the cycle without going out on overload.

Contrary to Spinspeed's assertion, this is not a debate about TL vs FL machine performance. The poster posed a real question about soap and scum residue left on clothes and that is more a problem of what the machine has to cope with regarding water conditions, load size and additive dosing. If the machine is properly loaded, the water properly softened and at the right temperature and the proper amount of detergent is used, added properly and allowed to dissolve, any top loader I have used produced laundry that was very well washed and rinsed so that no residue was left on the clothes. It is true than a front loader, where the detergent is added through a dispenser and is injected into the outer drum, is less likely to leave bits of undissolved detergent on the laundry than an overloaded top loader where the detergent is dumped on the dry laundry before starting the machine, but in either one, if the water is too cold to dissolve the detergent or too hard or too cold to properly rinse away the detergent, you are going to have problems on many counts causing poor laundering.
 
when i used a top load washer from 1993 to 2004

me i had a topload washer from 1993 to 2004 since i now have a whirlpool duet washer the way i proceded was i had the machine start filling then i added the detergent waited until i saw the suds then i added the clothes and i always found my self with clothes perfectly clean and with no soap residu on the clothes and the type of detergent i use is mostly liquid detergents not powder type detergent as most powder do not deslove well unless you have the machine agitate with out the clothes in the case of a top load to desolve the powder detergent.
 
I agree that it is difficult to overload a front loader with a regular mixed load of clothes and towels. The issue isn't so much about volume rather than weight and distribution. Weight in a top loader isn't as much of an issue as volume, so long as the load can roll over, distributes relatively evenly for the spin and doesn't interfere with the agitator. With either type of machine an overload protector will shut down the washer to prevent overheating and damage to the motor. The main difference being that in such situations top loaders are easier to manage.
 
I've overloaded a front loader once with a woolen blanket that got so heavy, it caused the drum to tilt down, strain the motor and eventually shut off the machine. Had this happened using a top loader I would simply have advance the timer to drain and spin. No door lock mechanism to override and no wet floor issues to deal with.

Mid-cycle mishaps, whether through operator error or mechanical/electronic failure, are less messy to resolve with top loaders.
 
How would there be distribution problems in a front loading machine with no room for tumbling to allow an unblanced load? Actually the situation is almost impossible to achieve. I have seen commercial Milnors packed with dry laundry, but when the washer fills with water, the load volume decreases to allow room for tumbling. And what about if the packing, I mean overloading, restricts the movement of the agitator in a top loader? That would be the analogous situation to a front loader so packed that little or no tumbling takes place. That places strain on the clutch & transmission parts. At the very least, it could cause belts to slip and eventually break in machines where the belt serves as the clutch. The reason most washers go out on thermal overload is oversudsing and the resulting sudslock when it tries to spin, not overloading. Tripping the motor's thermal overload is not the same as overloading the machine, nor is it fatal. The thermal overload switch is designed to protect the motor. If tripping it killed the motor, what would be the point in having a thermal overload device to protect the motor?
 
I've experienced both front loaders and US-type top loaders and I have generally found front loading machines tend to produce better results more reliably.

The problem I've noticed with US front loading machines is that they are actually too big. This is a marketing issues more than a technical one.

I've used typical US top loading machines (an old Whirlpool in Boston and a 230V SpeedQueen in Ireland) and they really didn't take amazingly huge loads compared to a modern 8-9kg European machines. You can pack a European machine quite tightly and it will still wash the load very well. Where as if you pack a top loading agitator machine too tightly it just doesn't work as there it needs much more space to move the clothes through the water.

Also, as top loaders are trying to achieve less and less water usage, they simply don't work effectively. A TL machine cannot wash if there's a very low water level. The same is not true for a front loader. It will just take a lot longer to wash with less water, but it will still achieve a good result.

I also found that TL machines produced problems with lint which I have never ever experienced with a Euro FL machine. Shirts occasionally came out coated dark lint. I think this is simply due to the high levels of mechanical action vs the slow tumbling action. FL machines just don't cause lint to come off the clothes in the first place.

I also think that a lot of US front loaders are impractically big. If you have a tightly filled drum, it will wash and not go out of balance. If you have a huge drum that has a load of towels in it, the machine will end up having trouble balancing and I have noticed that seems to happen a lot on typical over-sized US FL machines.

There's an optimum size and it's bigger than a typical Euro traditional 5kg machine but it's smaller than some of the crazy sized machines that certain US manufacturers are pushing too.

The 8kg-10kg large Euro models seem to kinda fit the bill perfectly in my experience.
 
I had a GE TL before my current Frigidaire FL (2140). I had read that TLs didn't really rinse the soap out of clothes very well. As a result, the first load I ran in the new TL was a load of clean shirts and trousers from the closet, which I ran without detergent. Lo and behold, there were suds in the water. Then I did a soap-less load of clean towels and even more suds,almost as if I'd used close to a full dose of detergent. So while the old washer got stuff clean (in terms of soil/stain removal), it was not rinsing out the detergent in a thorough manner.
 
Okay, I admit it, it's my fault. I let myself get sucked

I am wrong and you are right. I have no idea about washing machines, I just like them for their buttons, lights, noises and splashing. Front loaders rule and top loaders just shouldn't be.
 
H-Axis Washers

Historically *always* have out performed top loaders with central "beaters" in both cleaning results and gentleness on fabrics. This is proven in that for much of the history of commercial laundries (excluding laundromats) the former were most always used going right back to steam driven "washers" and "extractors".

As for overloading a front loader with one heavy item such as thich and thirsty bathrobe; been there, done that and won't do it again. Every owner's manual for front loading washers one has ever seen advises one to make mixed loads. This makes sense especially for purely "timer" driven washers with crude to nil weight distribution systems which will spin after a series of pre-programmed attempts (or not). Of course bolted down and or otherwise robust suspension system commercial front loaders *will* spin regardless often of weight distribution. Have seen washers at local laundromat go into spin with very off balanced loads banging and shaking so badly one could feel the vibrations thought he floor several feet away.
 
I've felt a solid concrete slab vibrate standing next to boltdown institutional washers (~35# Unimac, not even a "big" one).

Show me an institutional/industrial washer with an agitator and I'll buy you an order of onion rings at Sonic drive in. Shoot, I'll buy you a footlong chili-cheese coney besides.

I do believe--with evidence--that toploaders scrub better on small mixed loads. Also with evidence, that they don't rinse worth squat and that they don't do ANYthing worth squat when loaded to "capacity".

I mean really! If a 35# industrial washer shakes a concrete slab, what can an 18# TL household washer possibly accomplish at full load with one rinse fill? Roughly comparable to eating a whole pizza in one bite.
 
So I seem to have started a big old debate here. All contributions very valid and interesting. I think TL washers are more interesting than FL washers from a design point of view. I do think the way TL washers are going with using less and less water will be the demise of the TL washer. A TL washer will never be as economical to run as a FL washer. I think another advantage of FL washers is the fact they heat water up usually from cold which is great if using biological washing powders (that is if such a thing still exists? Not heard much mention of biological detergents, perhaps they are a thing of the past?). I do think you get better results with laundry washed in water that is heated up during the wash cycle rather than hot water straight from domestic supply. Also detergent much more concentrated in a small amount of water compared to a big tub of water in a TL machine.

One of the many great things about living in Australia is that we have choice. Whre as in the Uk these days go in to a department store and there will be a sea of FL washers all looking pretty much the same.

From an overload point of view, I am much more conscious of overloading one of my TL washers compared to the Zanussi which does cope very well when packed to the hilt and still delivers a very clean load.

Really good to read all your thoughts and comments.

Cheers

Simon
 
That's the thing that always kind of worried me about TL vs FL,

With the FL washer, the motor overheats and shuts off. As opposed to the TL washer which has a transmission. So not only can the motor overheat, but one could also damage the transmission as well. Considering that GE washers have transmissions with plastic gears, that's a little nervewracking.

To Arbilab, I've seen the White Westinghouse FL machines (Hard mount) shake so hard I swore they were going to break their mounts. It's freaky feeling the floor move!

To Launderess: You bring up a very valid point, about the one heavy item in the machine. I don't think any machine should self-destruct if you put clothing in them. Now, if you put in hockey pucks or tennis balls, that's a whole different story.. :)

To Rapunzel: Your response made me LOL.. You are right, it's easy not to "Know It All" .. I also enjoy the splashing, the buttons and knobs and so forth. I'll be the first to admit that I enjoy the washing action both a top loader and a front loader. It's like eating apples or oranges, two different fruits but the end result is pretty much the same.

To MRX: Your response surprises me. The instruction manual for my washer says to "Loosely place" the items into the tub and not to pack them. It's my impression that a FL is loaded correctly by how high the clothing gets in the tub after all of the clothing gets wet. As in, the clothing should never reach more than 2/3 up the top of the tub, but ideally should be about 1/2 way up. For my Top Loader, I knew if I loaded it correctly by how the clothes turned in the tub during agitation.
 
"You are right, it's easy not to "Know It All&#3

Hey, waddaya mean?! I do know it all and who are you calling a fruit around here?
 
Self Destruct Washing Machine

@qualin:

Our local laundromat has a 50lb SQ front loader that has been taken out of service at least twice because of major customer caused damage.

Both recent times the same person packed the washer so full of clothing that when it went into spin it literally bashed the bearings and other parts to bits. IIRC after the second time the owner or the attendant (not sure which) personally banned the woman from ever setting foot in the place again.

Now mind you in any commercial setting and that includes laundromats employees paying attention can stop a washer before it damages itself. For coin-op washers choices range from popping the top and shutting the washer down, or probably much faster shutting off power via the circut breaker.
 
Rinsing

Again, automatic top loaders cause many to skip steps as required when washing was done manually or semi-automatically.

In the old days proper laundry technique required rinsing until the water was *clear*. This often took two, three or more rinses with the first being hot or warm if pure soaps were used in the wash. Many modern automatic top loaders have one rinse as part of the standard normal cycles. Some early machines did offer timer controlled second rinse options,but they soon went away during the "Energy Crisis" of the 1970's IIRC. This meant for Madame Average Housewive to get a second rinse she had to reset the washer manually. Using a second rinse also tied up the washer and could hold up the convoy of other loads waiting their turn, so many skipped this step.

Being as all this may one obtains great rinsing in the vintage Whirlpool portable using Tide "HE" liquid. One also always resets the washer for a second deep rinse, which along with three before and after spray rinses seems to do the job. One knows this because laundry bunged into the extractor/spin dryer gives off clear water.
 

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