Can anyone confirm of deny? I ordered 2 more cases of the Institutional product to be safe.
WK78
WK78
It looks like all Phosphated Cascade is ending
- Thread starter whirlykenmore78
- Start date
Inquiring minds etc.
What evidence makes it "look like?" Is there something from the manufacturer, a news story or word from a distributor? Institutional users of DW detergent were exempted from the phosphate ban so there must be some story about why they would take this action.
What evidence makes it "look like?" Is there something from the manufacturer, a news story or word from a distributor? Institutional users of DW detergent were exempted from the phosphate ban so there must be some story about why they would take this action.
I base this off of.
The fact that I see WW Grainger closing it out, Restockit.com is down to 121 cases when they usually stock thousands and a post from Mich in a previous thread about the reformulation of Inst. Cascade. There is also at least one website selling the phosphate free version, many online sellers do not have it in stock and the original product is not listed ANYWHERE on PGpro.com.
While this evidence is circumstantial and may not be incontrovertible it points to a very sad state of affairs.
WK78
The fact that I see WW Grainger closing it out, Restockit.com is down to 121 cases when they usually stock thousands and a post from Mich in a previous thread about the reformulation of Inst. Cascade. There is also at least one website selling the phosphate free version, many online sellers do not have it in stock and the original product is not listed ANYWHERE on PGpro.com.
While this evidence is circumstantial and may not be incontrovertible it points to a very sad state of affairs.
WK78
One other indication
The smaller old school looking boxes of Cascade, which were phosphate are gone from both Restockit and Amazon. Restockit says nothing but Amazon says they do not know if or when the product will be in stock.
WK78
The smaller old school looking boxes of Cascade, which were phosphate are gone from both Restockit and Amazon. Restockit says nothing but Amazon says they do not know if or when the product will be in stock.
WK78
iheartmaytag
Well-known member
Ending
Saints preserve us.
Saints preserve us.
That's a shame, as I don't believe any of the new phosphate-free powders are rated very well. It may be time for me to try Bubble Bandit, or see if Hytron is still phosphate-laden.
It has been convenient for me to pickup a few boxes of Institutional Cascade at GFS, as needed, when the pantry supply ran low.
It has been convenient for me to pickup a few boxes of Institutional Cascade at GFS, as needed, when the pantry supply ran low.
whirlcool
Well-known member
Has anyone exhausted their supply of phosphated DW detergents yet? Several years ago a lot of us were really stocking up. We still have at least a 6 month supply of Cascade Action Packs, phosphated version. They are locked in an airtight container.
But we have been using Cascade complete without phosphates and for us it does a good job. So only when we get really heavy duty jobs do we bring out the old stuff.
But we have been using Cascade complete without phosphates and for us it does a good job. So only when we get really heavy duty jobs do we bring out the old stuff.
launderess
Well-known member
New York State Banned Commercial DW Detergents
With phosphates same time as domestic versions, though the commercial products were granted a bit longer time to comply.
Don't know how many states have followed similar actions but if the number is decent then P&G along with others has to rethink their game. With markets being cut off what is the point of producing a product?
While we here and other domestic users may love phosphates, commercial laundries and places that use industrial dishwashers have other concerns. The EPA and or local authorities probably aren't going to bust a housewife for using phosphate laden products, but a commercial establishment is another matter. IIRC "illegal dumping" can cover introducing banned substances into the sewage system.
With phosphates same time as domestic versions, though the commercial products were granted a bit longer time to comply.
Don't know how many states have followed similar actions but if the number is decent then P&G along with others has to rethink their game. With markets being cut off what is the point of producing a product?
While we here and other domestic users may love phosphates, commercial laundries and places that use industrial dishwashers have other concerns. The EPA and or local authorities probably aren't going to bust a housewife for using phosphate laden products, but a commercial establishment is another matter. IIRC "illegal dumping" can cover introducing banned substances into the sewage system.
Launderess:
If you are forbidden from using Phosphate-laden detergents in NY, does this mean it is also illegal to ship detergents across state lines into NY?
I suppose I make my question redundant by asking if you use STPP in your laundering practice?
If you are forbidden from using Phosphate-laden detergents in NY, does this mean it is also illegal to ship detergents across state lines into NY?
I suppose I make my question redundant by asking if you use STPP in your laundering practice?
launderess
Well-known member
Commercial/Institutional Supply Places
Will not ship STPP laden laundry products to NYS. Ecolab has written clearly on packages of product (laundry detergent, bleaches, etc...)that contain phosphates it is not offered for sale in NY. Have not looked since the ban was announced regarding commercial dishwasher products.
Chemistry Store fills our orders for phosphates without any problems, so one assumes other sources for domestic use are fine.
As for using STPP, yes one does have a stash and uses phosphates though find myself tapering off.
First much of my stash of vintage laundry detergents are laden with phosphates. Dash, Gain, Burst, FAB, Punch, VIM, etc... all have more than enough of the stuff to get things done. Will add a bit of STPP when using modern liquid detergents, and of course when using soaps (P&G, Kirkman's, and Fels), and the NOS vintage Persil which is mainly washing soda, sodium perborate and soap.
Will not ship STPP laden laundry products to NYS. Ecolab has written clearly on packages of product (laundry detergent, bleaches, etc...)that contain phosphates it is not offered for sale in NY. Have not looked since the ban was announced regarding commercial dishwasher products.
Chemistry Store fills our orders for phosphates without any problems, so one assumes other sources for domestic use are fine.
As for using STPP, yes one does have a stash and uses phosphates though find myself tapering off.
First much of my stash of vintage laundry detergents are laden with phosphates. Dash, Gain, Burst, FAB, Punch, VIM, etc... all have more than enough of the stuff to get things done. Will add a bit of STPP when using modern liquid detergents, and of course when using soaps (P&G, Kirkman's, and Fels), and the NOS vintage Persil which is mainly washing soda, sodium perborate and soap.
sudsmaster
Well-known member
I still have a stash of phosphated Cascade powder I picked up at Grocery Outlet a couple three years back. Recently I found some tubs of phosphated Cascade packets and I've been working through those as well. Easier to dose the DW with esp when the powder has grown some gravel that clogs the delivery chute.
Restock it
Looks as if their selling commercial grade Cacade.
I'm confused! The add it says that it "cleans with unbeatable tri sodium phosphate" ?
If in fact that's the difference, why not add a little to the new stuff?
Or if it's Sodium Tri Polyphosphate ( makes more sense to me) then add it?
I'm I over simplifying ?
Looks as if their selling commercial grade Cacade.
I'm confused! The add it says that it "cleans with unbeatable tri sodium phosphate" ?
If in fact that's the difference, why not add a little to the new stuff?
Or if it's Sodium Tri Polyphosphate ( makes more sense to me) then add it?
I'm I over simplifying ?
mich
Well-known member
Confirmed...
Unfortunately, due to environmental laws passed in the state of NY, and expected legislature to follow in other states, Procter & Gamble has stopped production of all Phosphate fueled automatic dishwashing formulas, including Institutional Cascade, as of 8/31/2013. The remaining supply's are starting to become short due to demand, and once it's gone, it'll be gone
Unfortunately, due to environmental laws passed in the state of NY, and expected legislature to follow in other states, Procter & Gamble has stopped production of all Phosphate fueled automatic dishwashing formulas, including Institutional Cascade, as of 8/31/2013. The remaining supply's are starting to become short due to demand, and once it's gone, it'll be gone
launderess
Well-known member
Told Ya So
Once you start losing major markets like New York State consumer products have to consider carefully how to proceed. With other states added and or expected to follow not to mention constant snooping by tree huggers and the organic mother's brigade; is it really worth the hassle?
Will be interesting to see if other makers of institutional dishwasher products follow suit.
Once you start losing major markets like New York State consumer products have to consider carefully how to proceed. With other states added and or expected to follow not to mention constant snooping by tree huggers and the organic mother's brigade; is it really worth the hassle?
Will be interesting to see if other makers of institutional dishwasher products follow suit.
Saw the new non-phosphate version on the shelf at GFS last night. Doesn't appear to contain chlorine either. The new is probably just different packaging of one of their existing phosphate free products.
mich
Well-known member
Did..
by chance, did they have any remaining stock of the good stuff?
alongside the new stuff.
by chance, did they have any remaining stock of the good stuff?
alongside the new stuff. No, in fact when I was there a week or so ago, they had no Cascade whatsoever.
mich
Well-known member
Sad...
Looks like the demise of Phosphate Laden cleaning products is at full swing.
Looks like the demise of Phosphate Laden cleaning products is at full swing.
iheartmaytag
Well-known member
I still have a stash
But I have been using Cascade Platinum and it has been doing just great. No streaks, no film, just shiny spotless dishes... and yes the inside of the dishwasher shines too.
Finish does a good job cleaning, but I still have problems with streaks and a white film after about four or five washings.
But I have been using Cascade Platinum and it has been doing just great. No streaks, no film, just shiny spotless dishes... and yes the inside of the dishwasher shines too.
Finish does a good job cleaning, but I still have problems with streaks and a white film after about four or five washings.
danemodsandy
Well-known member
This Could Be a Blessing In Disguise:
Why am I saying that?
Because phosphate-free DW detergents are, at the present state of the art, not consistently giving the squeaky-clean, sanitary results older formulas did.
Which makes me wonder: How long before phosphate-free commercial DW detergent contributes to an outbreak of illness? While the best of them can deliver an acceptable result if used properly, "properly" isn't in the vocabulary of a lot of downscale diners and hash houses. They want a cheap product, they turn it over to an employee who is often a "hire of last resort," and they expect clean in return.
Phosphated, chlorinated detergents could do that consistently. I don't know if non-phosphated detergents can under less-than-perfect conditions.
The unfortunate part is that something bad will have to happen to force a second look at this knee-jerk phosphate ban. But I for one am willing to bet events will unfold that way. Human nature will see to it.
And that is the blessing in disguise: If these new detergents contribute to an epidemic or substantial outbreak of something, phosphates and chlorine may have to come back, to begin assuring public health once again. Some tree-huggers won't believe this until forced to, but there actually are worse problems than phosphate-nourished algae in our waterways - you know, like sick people and dead people.
Why am I saying that?
Because phosphate-free DW detergents are, at the present state of the art, not consistently giving the squeaky-clean, sanitary results older formulas did.
Which makes me wonder: How long before phosphate-free commercial DW detergent contributes to an outbreak of illness? While the best of them can deliver an acceptable result if used properly, "properly" isn't in the vocabulary of a lot of downscale diners and hash houses. They want a cheap product, they turn it over to an employee who is often a "hire of last resort," and they expect clean in return.
Phosphated, chlorinated detergents could do that consistently. I don't know if non-phosphated detergents can under less-than-perfect conditions.
The unfortunate part is that something bad will have to happen to force a second look at this knee-jerk phosphate ban. But I for one am willing to bet events will unfold that way. Human nature will see to it.
And that is the blessing in disguise: If these new detergents contribute to an epidemic or substantial outbreak of something, phosphates and chlorine may have to come back, to begin assuring public health once again. Some tree-huggers won't believe this until forced to, but there actually are worse problems than phosphate-nourished algae in our waterways - you know, like sick people and dead people.
Chlorinated Hytron still contains STPP, but it says phosphorus is less than 0.5%. The ingredients list "water softening agents" and sodium citrate, which I believe can also be a water softener. So, it is possible it might work well in hard water, but without benefit of phosphates.
However, I'm not sure I want to spring for a 10 lb. tub of Hytron in order to try it out. Maybe it is available in smaller quantities for a test run?
http://www.stearnspkg.com/all_tek/464tek.pdf
However, I'm not sure I want to spring for a 10 lb. tub of Hytron in order to try it out. Maybe it is available in smaller quantities for a test run?
http://www.stearnspkg.com/all_tek/464tek.pdf
whirlcool
Well-known member
We have found that as long as you keep the temp of your hot water tank up, most DW detergents will clean adequately. Problem is a lot of people don't run the hot water to "preheat" the line before running the dishwasher. And then there are those who leave their hot water tank on "vacation" all the time.
mich
Well-known member
Wait..
<span style="font-size: 10pt;">Sandy could be on to something here. I mean, let's pretend a hospital was using a formula without enough water softeners, and it didn't disinfect well enough. LOTS of people could get sick... and that could be the start of something. </span>
<span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span>
<span style="font-size: 10pt;">With the Chlorine & Phosphates both being removed, and replaced with witch-brew formulas that still have failed us in Home Use Formulations, just how different could they have for institutional use? </span>
<span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span>
<span style="font-size: 10pt;">Another thing worth noting... </span>
<span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span>
<span style="font-size: 10pt;">The EPA has classified "Hydrogen Peroxide" as ineffective for disinfecting, and killing Salmonella & E-coil, which is the bleach "alternative" being used instead of Chlorine in the new formulas. Add enough Calcium & Magnesium Minerals into that, and it won't even activate. </span>
I'm honestly very curious to see how everything will play out... Maybe some things will change with time.
<span style="font-size: 10pt;">Sandy could be on to something here. I mean, let's pretend a hospital was using a formula without enough water softeners, and it didn't disinfect well enough. LOTS of people could get sick... and that could be the start of something. </span>
<span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span>
<span style="font-size: 10pt;">With the Chlorine & Phosphates both being removed, and replaced with witch-brew formulas that still have failed us in Home Use Formulations, just how different could they have for institutional use? </span>
<span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span>
<span style="font-size: 10pt;">Another thing worth noting... </span>
<span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span>
<span style="font-size: 10pt;">The EPA has classified "Hydrogen Peroxide" as ineffective for disinfecting, and killing Salmonella & E-coil, which is the bleach "alternative" being used instead of Chlorine in the new formulas. Add enough Calcium & Magnesium Minerals into that, and it won't even activate. </span>
I'm honestly very curious to see how everything will play out... Maybe some things will change with time.
I always thought that the purpose of chlorine bleach in dishwasher detergents, besides disinfecting, was to aid in quick removal of soils. Institutional-use dishwashers (restaurants, hospitals) run short cycle times. Enzymes require long cycle times to be effective.
Thus, if Cascade is dropping both phosphates AND chlorine bleach from its institutional detergent, that would seem to reduce its effectiveness even more, causing poor performance in short cycle dishwashers.
I think using the version with chlorine bleach also helps in stain removal, especially on plastics.
Thus, if Cascade is dropping both phosphates AND chlorine bleach from its institutional detergent, that would seem to reduce its effectiveness even more, causing poor performance in short cycle dishwashers.
I think using the version with chlorine bleach also helps in stain removal, especially on plastics.
iheartmaytag
Well-known member
Institutional machines
Usually sanitize with either chemical or temperature. I recon that the wash cycle ingredients will hasten the operation of the high temp rinse.
Usually sanitize with either chemical or temperature. I recon that the wash cycle ingredients will hasten the operation of the high temp rinse.
mich
Well-known member
Cascade
<span style="font-size: medium;">has<span style="text-decoration: underline;"> dropped the Chlorine</span> completely from the Institutional Formula, and replaced it with Sodium Perborate & Enzymes. For the Water Softener situation, Sodium Carbonate (Washing Soda) is being utilized and nothing further. </span>
<span style="font-size: medium;">One does have to remember though, these "Phosphate Free" Formulas, overtime could lead to Calcium & Hard Water Deposits Buildup in machines, which, can be a breading ground for bacteria, all by itself. That's why Consumers are now taunted with "Machine Cleaners" in grocery aisles across the country, and stainless steel tubs go from shiny to milky white. </span>
<span style="font-size: medium;">has<span style="text-decoration: underline;"> dropped the Chlorine</span> completely from the Institutional Formula, and replaced it with Sodium Perborate & Enzymes. For the Water Softener situation, Sodium Carbonate (Washing Soda) is being utilized and nothing further. </span>
<span style="font-size: medium;">One does have to remember though, these "Phosphate Free" Formulas, overtime could lead to Calcium & Hard Water Deposits Buildup in machines, which, can be a breading ground for bacteria, all by itself. That's why Consumers are now taunted with "Machine Cleaners" in grocery aisles across the country, and stainless steel tubs go from shiny to milky white. </span>
launderess
Well-known member
Never liked chlorine DW detergent.
Truth be told in most all consumer testing detergents with enzymes and oxygen bleaching systems performed better than chlorine based automatic dishwasher detergents.
One of the main reasons institutional/commercial dishwashers went that route was due to the sanitizing power of chlorine and that the product withstood high temperature washes. You can set commercial dishwashers to reach final rinse temps required by health codes, or simply use chemicals in that cycle to sanitize dishware.
Truth be told in most all consumer testing detergents with enzymes and oxygen bleaching systems performed better than chlorine based automatic dishwasher detergents.
One of the main reasons institutional/commercial dishwashers went that route was due to the sanitizing power of chlorine and that the product withstood high temperature washes. You can set commercial dishwashers to reach final rinse temps required by health codes, or simply use chemicals in that cycle to sanitize dishware.
mich
Well-known member
Laundress..
One wonders if this advert was inspired by you? (Skip to :30)
Anyhow, While Chlorine doesn't have all the food dissolving power of Enzymes. With a long enough cycle time, it does have enough power to brake down, and leave everything very clean. Plus, it really does a number on stained Coffee & Tea Mugs, and plastic ware. I myself, really do like Cascade Complete, and all it's power, but there are sometimes when one does wanna use a Bleach Detergent on a Load of dishes (like during flu season, or company has been over and you wanna kill germs). It does have it uses, and I personally believe it does a good job.
In fact, years ago (August 2009) Consumer Reports rated Cascade Extra Action Dishwasher Gel (from Sams Club & Costco) which was a Chlorine & Phosphate based product, a Best Buy, and gave it a really good rating.
I guess, it's just a personal preference on what you wanna use. I like Both
One wonders if this advert was inspired by you? (Skip to :30)
Anyhow, While Chlorine doesn't have all the food dissolving power of Enzymes. With a long enough cycle time, it does have enough power to brake down, and leave everything very clean. Plus, it really does a number on stained Coffee & Tea Mugs, and plastic ware. I myself, really do like Cascade Complete, and all it's power, but there are sometimes when one does wanna use a Bleach Detergent on a Load of dishes (like during flu season, or company has been over and you wanna kill germs). It does have it uses, and I personally believe it does a good job.
In fact, years ago (August 2009) Consumer Reports rated Cascade Extra Action Dishwasher Gel (from Sams Club & Costco) which was a Chlorine & Phosphate based product, a Best Buy, and gave it a really good rating.
I guess, it's just a personal preference on what you wanna use. I like Both
As others have said, the chlorine formula does a bang-up job on tea & tomato stains.
I routinely use an enzyme formula for loads with baked-on soils ... although I have used the chlorine formula in a few instances but have not directly observed whether there's a difference in performance. Must make an effort to do so.
Anyways, I bought a case of "industrial" Cascade two years ago and still have an appreciable supply *even* considering what I've given to family & a couple friends. Pondering on whether to get another case ...
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