It looks like all Phosphated Cascade is ending

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I still have a stash

But I have been using Cascade Platinum and it has been doing just great. No streaks, no film, just shiny spotless dishes... and yes the inside of the dishwasher shines too.

Finish does a good job cleaning, but I still have problems with streaks and a white film after about four or five washings.
 
This Could Be a Blessing In Disguise:

Why am I saying that?

Because phosphate-free DW detergents are, at the present state of the art, not consistently giving the squeaky-clean, sanitary results older formulas did.

Which makes me wonder: How long before phosphate-free commercial DW detergent contributes to an outbreak of illness? While the best of them can deliver an acceptable result if used properly, "properly" isn't in the vocabulary of a lot of downscale diners and hash houses. They want a cheap product, they turn it over to an employee who is often a "hire of last resort," and they expect clean in return.

Phosphated, chlorinated detergents could do that consistently. I don't know if non-phosphated detergents can under less-than-perfect conditions.

The unfortunate part is that something bad will have to happen to force a second look at this knee-jerk phosphate ban. But I for one am willing to bet events will unfold that way. Human nature will see to it.

And that is the blessing in disguise: If these new detergents contribute to an epidemic or substantial outbreak of something, phosphates and chlorine may have to come back, to begin assuring public health once again. Some tree-huggers won't believe this until forced to, but there actually are worse problems than phosphate-nourished algae in our waterways - you know, like sick people and dead people.
 
Chlorinated Hytron still contains STPP, but it says phosphorus is less than 0.5%. The ingredients list "water softening agents" and sodium citrate, which I believe can also be a water softener. So, it is possible it might work well in hard water, but without benefit of phosphates.

However, I'm not sure I want to spring for a 10 lb. tub of Hytron in order to try it out. Maybe it is available in smaller quantities for a test run?

 
We have found that as long as you keep the temp of your hot water tank up, most DW detergents will clean adequately. Problem is a lot of people don't run the hot water to "preheat" the line before running the dishwasher. And then there are those who leave their hot water tank on "vacation" all the time.
 
Wait..

<span style="font-size: 10pt;">Sandy could be on to something here. I mean, let's pretend a hospital was using a formula without enough water softeners, and it didn't disinfect well enough. LOTS of people could get sick... and that could be the start of something. </span>

<span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span>

<span style="font-size: 10pt;">With the Chlorine & Phosphates both being removed, and replaced with witch-brew formulas that still have failed us in Home Use Formulations, just how different could they have for institutional use? </span>

<span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span>

<span style="font-size: 10pt;">Another thing worth noting... </span>

<span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span>

<span style="font-size: 10pt;">The EPA has classified "Hydrogen Peroxide" as ineffective for disinfecting, and killing Salmonella & E-coil, which is the bleach "alternative" being used instead of Chlorine in the new formulas. Add enough Calcium & Magnesium Minerals into that, and it won't even activate. </span>

 

 

I'm honestly very curious to see how everything will play out... Maybe some things will change with time. 

 
I always thought that the purpose of chlorine bleach in dishwasher detergents, besides disinfecting, was to aid in quick removal of soils. Institutional-use dishwashers (restaurants, hospitals) run short cycle times. Enzymes require long cycle times to be effective.

Thus, if Cascade is dropping both phosphates AND chlorine bleach from its institutional detergent, that would seem to reduce its effectiveness even more, causing poor performance in short cycle dishwashers.

I think using the version with chlorine bleach also helps in stain removal, especially on plastics.
 
Institutional machines

Usually sanitize with either chemical or temperature. I recon that the wash cycle ingredients will hasten the operation of the high temp rinse.
 
Cascade

<span style="font-size: medium;">has<span style="text-decoration: underline;"> dropped the Chlorine</span> completely from the Institutional Formula, and replaced it with Sodium Perborate & Enzymes. For the Water Softener situation, Sodium Carbonate (Washing Soda) is being utilized and nothing further. </span>

 

<span style="font-size: medium;">One does have to remember though, these "Phosphate Free" Formulas, overtime could lead to Calcium & Hard Water Deposits Buildup in machines, which, can be a breading ground for bacteria, all by itself. That's why Consumers are now taunted with "Machine Cleaners" in grocery aisles across the country, and stainless steel tubs go from shiny to milky white. </span>

 

 
 
Never liked chlorine DW detergent.

Truth be told in most all consumer testing detergents with enzymes and oxygen bleaching systems performed better than chlorine based automatic dishwasher detergents.

One of the main reasons institutional/commercial dishwashers went that route was due to the sanitizing power of chlorine and that the product withstood high temperature washes. You can set commercial dishwashers to reach final rinse temps required by health codes, or simply use chemicals in that cycle to sanitize dishware.
 
Laundress..

One wonders if this advert was inspired by you? (Skip to :30)
 

 
 
Anyhow, While Chlorine doesn't have all the food dissolving power of Enzymes. With a long enough cycle time, it does have enough power to brake down, and leave everything very clean. Plus, it really does a number on stained Coffee & Tea Mugs, and plastic ware. I myself, really do like Cascade Complete, and all it's power, but there are sometimes when one does wanna use a Bleach Detergent on a Load of dishes (like during flu season, or company has been over and you wanna kill germs). It does have it uses, and I personally believe it does a good job.
 
In fact, years ago (August 2009) Consumer Reports rated Cascade Extra Action Dishwasher Gel (from Sams Club & Costco) which was a Chlorine & Phosphate based product, a Best Buy, and gave it a really good rating. 

I guess, it's just a personal preference on what you wanna use. I like Both :)
 
 
As others have said, the chlorine formula does a bang-up job on tea & tomato stains.

I routinely use an enzyme formula for loads with baked-on soils ... although I have used the chlorine formula in a few instances but have not directly observed whether there's a difference in performance.  Must make an effort to do so.

Anyways, I bought a case of "industrial" Cascade two years ago and still have an appreciable supply *even* considering what I've given to family & a couple friends.  Pondering on whether to get another case ...
 
phosphated stockpiles

@sudsmaster: nearly all have integral heaters. Even ones without heated drying (e.g. Bosch) have integral heaters to heat water to correct temp. Since final rinse is c. 155 F on normal cycle and 162 F on PowerScrubPlus cycle (on my 300 series made in 2001), the heater has to engage each time because my hot water heater is set to roughly 140 F.

When I first read about DW phosphate bans in some states, I went to Costco and bought four jumbo packs (90-100 tablets each) of Finish/Electrasol Powerballs. Each will last me about two years, because I run one load every 5-7 days. Then, some friends who installed a new KA several years ago found that Finish Powerball tabs did not fit well in the KA's dispenser. The dispenser is shallow and it was difficult to close the lid over the Powerball tab (old Electrasol tabs w/o Powerball might have worked). They gifted me their 2 1/2 jumbo packs (about 250 tabs) that they could not use. I think the cartons sat in their garage for several years but each tab is wrapped and appears not to have decomposed.

I've probably used one of the jumbo cartons I horded two years ago, and between the gifted cartons and the three I bought, I probably have 4-5 cartons left. At my rate of use, enough to last 8-10 years. I hope by then they'll have something on the shelves that works (or newer dishwashers that can work with the new formulations).
 
I cleaned out the wholesale place this afternoon. I opened all of the cartons to make sure that the 6 boxes inside had the formula with phosphates. If the insanity does not end, I will start using a lesser product in the first wash.

I have found one thing that sort of lets me "game" the cycle. I choose the Water Miser cycle which skips one prewash so it has two washes and two rinses. I use the Water Heat option if there are heavily soiled items in the load, but I don't run the water hot before I start the machine. The first 7 minute wash drains out at about 100F. The main wash adds about 12 minutes for water heating for extra scrubbing and drains out about 150F. For light soil with no cooking utensils, I run the water to 140F before starting the same cycle without the extra water heating and everything gets clean.
 
This just popped into my head

A lot of people buy STPP and add it back to the detergent .....

I wonder if the same can be done with the dry bleach?

It probably wouldn't work because it kills the enzymes.

I would be completely happy with Finish if it didn't foam so much. It seemed to get rid of coffee, tea, tomato - from what I can remember when using it. I just wish it didn't foam so much (even in hard water)
 
Regarding adding STPP to dw and laundry detergents, I just purchased my 2nd 50lb bag over-the-counter from Wausau Chemical.  With our 5.5% sales tax it came to $67.52, which works out to $1.3504 per lb.
 
Mad...

Stopped in to my local Gordon's and found the crappy new formula Cascade and walked out.  I need some detergent and am at a loss as to what to get.  Cascade Platinum RUINED some of my stuff, so that is out, Finish with Powerball is quite pricey, plus I like ot control how much detergent I put in the machine.

 

Stopped into Sam's Club today they had a large box of Cascade, don't recall the name but on the back it said it was also sold as extra bleach formula, so I wonder if it's worth trying.  It was a very large box for $10, might be stuck with it for close to a year if I try it.  They also had a 100, or 110 count box of Finish for $10 also.  Temped to try Bubble Bandit, but I have to order it so that puts me off.  Also considering buying a moderate amount of STPP and adding it to whatever powder I do end up with.  Just too many questions.
 
I buy Finish Power Ball tabs at Costco, roughly $10 for 100 tabs, as you stated. Not the cheapest product, but it appears to work for most people with most machines in most settings. With the removal of phosphates, we may not hold all the cards any more, and some of the former economical alternatives may no longer be viable.
 
I think that's

what I'm going to lean toward when I run out of my Cascade......Finish powerball (not quantum).....I don't think powerball foams as much as quantum but I think it performed just as well...

I'll have to check to see if it's cheaper online, Sam's Club, or Costco.

I'm assuming that powerball and quantum are phosphate free......I would think they would HAVE to be.
 
I got a ton of those stupid "Powerball" tabs...

When they were really cheap a awhile ago. There horrible. They etch and destroy glassware in 1 wash load, and even take the paint and styles of ceramics. I think there designed for older style dishwashers, that run for about 30-40 minutes, not longer, 2 hour cycle based machines. 
 

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