Lawrence, I think I will. He may be a vintage appliance fan now, after all the crossings I've done with vintage machines and parts... LOL
It never ends... now it's the '59 Frigidaire dryer
- Thread starter turquoisedude
- Start date
Help Support :
I very well could be wrong, and someone please correct me if I am.
But without seeing a schematic, Paul, I think you might be envisioning an elaborate band-aid that wouldn't actually solve your root problem.
So we have a motor, with a centrifugal switch, which enables the heating element only when the motor is running.
We have evidence of that switch being mechanically faulty - the terminal is loose.
The scorch marks and overheating also show that that switch is not in good health electrically.
Now, a secondary relay would offload the bulk of the heating element current... but you still need a way to trigger that relay to close. As we know, for safety, it must only close when the motor is actually running. (Not energized by the timer with *intent* to run, but ACTUALLY physically turning.). The source for this signal, of course, is a centrifugal switch on the motor.
See the problem? The very switch which would tell your new relay to turn on, is the switch you have shown is suspect.
You don't want to energize the relay from the timer's motor output, as a fault such as a seized motor would allow the dangerous condition of the heating element running without the motor turning. Likewise, you don't want to trust the relay control to the failing centrifugal switch, as who knows how it is failing mechanically, or what fault condition could cause it to close (or stay closed) when not expected.
I think you have no choice but to repair that original switch on your motor!
But without seeing a schematic, Paul, I think you might be envisioning an elaborate band-aid that wouldn't actually solve your root problem.
So we have a motor, with a centrifugal switch, which enables the heating element only when the motor is running.
We have evidence of that switch being mechanically faulty - the terminal is loose.
The scorch marks and overheating also show that that switch is not in good health electrically.
Now, a secondary relay would offload the bulk of the heating element current... but you still need a way to trigger that relay to close. As we know, for safety, it must only close when the motor is actually running. (Not energized by the timer with *intent* to run, but ACTUALLY physically turning.). The source for this signal, of course, is a centrifugal switch on the motor.
See the problem? The very switch which would tell your new relay to turn on, is the switch you have shown is suspect.
You don't want to energize the relay from the timer's motor output, as a fault such as a seized motor would allow the dangerous condition of the heating element running without the motor turning. Likewise, you don't want to trust the relay control to the failing centrifugal switch, as who knows how it is failing mechanically, or what fault condition could cause it to close (or stay closed) when not expected.
I think you have no choice but to repair that original switch on your motor!
Using a relay to bypass bad motor switch contacts
The main purpose of having the heater current go through the centrifugal switch of the motor is to turn the heating elements off when you open the door of the dryer. The door switch of the dryer opens the circuit to the motor and the motor quickly turns off the heating elements.
It would be acceptible to just have 120 V relay wired in parallel with the motor and having the heater current go through the relay contacts to bypass the motor switch.
In the event that the motor fails to run the heating element gets turned on the safety Thermostat, It should will keep the heater from overheating in a disastrous manner. Bear in mind that older dryers like this are not terribly safe anyway, and if you want to add an additional safety thermostat or thermal fuse even that’s not a ridiculous idea but if you don’t tend to leave your dryer running when you leave the house and I certainly wouldn’t leave a 57 Frigidaire dryer running when I’m not around you should be OK with the relay as you planned.
John
[this post was last edited: 5/7/2019-18:31]
The main purpose of having the heater current go through the centrifugal switch of the motor is to turn the heating elements off when you open the door of the dryer. The door switch of the dryer opens the circuit to the motor and the motor quickly turns off the heating elements.
It would be acceptible to just have 120 V relay wired in parallel with the motor and having the heater current go through the relay contacts to bypass the motor switch.
In the event that the motor fails to run the heating element gets turned on the safety Thermostat, It should will keep the heater from overheating in a disastrous manner. Bear in mind that older dryers like this are not terribly safe anyway, and if you want to add an additional safety thermostat or thermal fuse even that’s not a ridiculous idea but if you don’t tend to leave your dryer running when you leave the house and I certainly wouldn’t leave a 57 Frigidaire dryer running when I’m not around you should be OK with the relay as you planned.
John
[this post was last edited: 5/7/2019-18:31]
New bearing
Paul, I have an NOS bearing for the dryer if the oil soaking doesn’t work.
Let me know
Marty
Paul, I have an NOS bearing for the dryer if the oil soaking doesn’t work.
Let me know
Marty
This week's progress...
And I use the term loosely... LOL
I managed to extract the motor from the dryer easily enough. However, when I inspected the switch assembly, I saw nothing glaringly obvious as to the source of the bad connection.
Conclusion: the contacts inside the switch must be bad. That being the case, it looks like I will either need to find a replacement switch or a new motor.
I am going to try my luck with the local motor shop in Magog later this week.
BTW, it's a Delco motor - I don't believe it's the original one, though.
And I use the term loosely... LOL
I managed to extract the motor from the dryer easily enough. However, when I inspected the switch assembly, I saw nothing glaringly obvious as to the source of the bad connection.
Conclusion: the contacts inside the switch must be bad. That being the case, it looks like I will either need to find a replacement switch or a new motor.
I am going to try my luck with the local motor shop in Magog later this week.
BTW, it's a Delco motor - I don't believe it's the original one, though.
It is a 1970 replacement motor, The white jumpers on the switch are there so the motor can be wired to run either direction.
I would just use a relay and not use the heater contacts on the motor switch.
John
I would just use a relay and not use the heater contacts on the motor switch.
John
norgeway
Well-known member
Off subject BUT
I liked the setup Kenmore dryers from the 50s had They had a fly weight governor that controlled the heaters if the motor didn't get up to speed the heater didn't heat.
I liked the setup Kenmore dryers from the 50s had They had a fly weight governor that controlled the heaters if the motor didn't get up to speed the heater didn't heat.
Norgeway, you are correct about how the WP/KM dryers of the 50’s had some sort of air flow switch, and it wouldn’t allow the heating element or burner to come on until the drum and blower/fan were up to speed, or if the belts broke or some how came off the pulleys. I am surprised Maytag didn’t have a air flow switch on their HOH dryers, and someone created a thread awhile back called I’m a royal idiot, and they apparently dried shoes in their 1959 Maytag Gas HOH dryer. What happened was the belts came off of the pulleys, and they noticed a burning lint smell since the burner was going with no air being pulled through it, and they quickly stopped to see what happened, and they discovered what happened. I can’t seem to find the thread anywhere, but it’s somewhere in the archives.
Back to the relay...
John, I do like the idea of using a relay to control the heater. You had previously mentioned using a 120-volt relay wired so that it would be activated when the motor was running (this would mean that when the dryer door was opened, motor and heater would shut off).
As I am not well-versed in the care and feeding of relays, can you recommended a brand/type of relay to use and the specs? We don't necessarily have access to the same products up here, but I can always buy something from a US supplier by mail and have it shipped to my Vermont address.
John, I do like the idea of using a relay to control the heater. You had previously mentioned using a 120-volt relay wired so that it would be activated when the motor was running (this would mean that when the dryer door was opened, motor and heater would shut off).
As I am not well-versed in the care and feeding of relays, can you recommended a brand/type of relay to use and the specs? We don't necessarily have access to the same products up here, but I can always buy something from a US supplier by mail and have it shipped to my Vermont address.
Paul - if you're planning on having a relay switch on with the 120v motor, you could use something like this Omron relay. Not trying to plug Grainger, but you know where I work 
https://www.grainger.com/product/OMRON-100-120VAC-4A711
Also, those Delco start switches are designed to be easily replaced without taking the whole motor apart. The replacement start switch for the C-2415 motor is 4943927. No hits on the 'bay, and the Parts Master shows that this is a pretty specific start switch for the early style flowing heat dryer motors. Not sure if swapping in a switch from anther Delco dryer motor would work to have it switch both the windings as well as the heater.
Your saga is a good reminder for the rest of us that a simple relay will help protect these difficult-to-replace dryer motors that switch on the dryer heater.
Ben[this post was last edited: 5/13/2019-08:50]
https://www.grainger.com/product/OMRON-100-120VAC-4A711
Also, those Delco start switches are designed to be easily replaced without taking the whole motor apart. The replacement start switch for the C-2415 motor is 4943927. No hits on the 'bay, and the Parts Master shows that this is a pretty specific start switch for the early style flowing heat dryer motors. Not sure if swapping in a switch from anther Delco dryer motor would work to have it switch both the windings as well as the heater.
Your saga is a good reminder for the rest of us that a simple relay will help protect these difficult-to-replace dryer motors that switch on the dryer heater.
Ben[this post was last edited: 5/13/2019-08:50]
Thanks Ben! For whatever reason, this product wasn't showing up on the Acklands-Grainger site here in Canada. However, I was able to use my US address and order a couple (one for the Frigidaire and one perhaps for the GE OR the as-yet-unrestored '51 Kenmore dryer).
I'll be picking this up later this week when I am back down in Ogden.
Hopefully I won't mess up the wiring... LOL
I'll be picking this up later this week when I am back down in Ogden.
Hopefully I won't mess up the wiring... LOL
Have we ....
Taken out the switch yet to take a peek at it?
I once used 51% silver brazing rod to renew the silver contacts of a start switch. Simply take the brass conductors out of the board, braze new silver on the contacts and reinstall. Same thing on the lever portion of the switch as well. 4 contacts in all to renew. To take the lever out you have to remove the bearing cover, which isn't difficult.
But I am assuming the start switch is similar to this '60 washer motor pictured.
Taken out the switch yet to take a peek at it?
I once used 51% silver brazing rod to renew the silver contacts of a start switch. Simply take the brass conductors out of the board, braze new silver on the contacts and reinstall. Same thing on the lever portion of the switch as well. 4 contacts in all to renew. To take the lever out you have to remove the bearing cover, which isn't difficult.
But I am assuming the start switch is similar to this '60 washer motor pictured.
I too am wondering - Why not open up the switch and see what the problem is?
The switch appeared to be 1-piece and even if it was like on the '60 motor Bud included a photo of, with my shaky hands, opening it up would not be a good move. I don't have the 'fine tuning' to be able to braze a new contact properly. It would end badly... I feel much more comfortable using the relay.
Hey Paul ....
I bet that machinist guy you just met can fix that switch if renewing the contacts is all that is required. I'd rather see you try and fix the switch .... then have the output of the switch toggle the new relay. A couple of hundred miliamps for the relay coil vs 30+ amps to power the heating element. The switch wouldn't ever burn out again. And if the motor ever fails to run, no power to heater .... vs letting the safety pop due to overtemping, and no changes to the door switch circuit either.
The silver brazing rod is quite common and is in every machinists arsenal of tools. Used to braze most metals. Just tell him it needs to be a silver content greater than 45%. Most are at least 50%.
I bet that machinist guy you just met can fix that switch if renewing the contacts is all that is required. I'd rather see you try and fix the switch .... then have the output of the switch toggle the new relay. A couple of hundred miliamps for the relay coil vs 30+ amps to power the heating element. The switch wouldn't ever burn out again. And if the motor ever fails to run, no power to heater .... vs letting the safety pop due to overtemping, and no changes to the door switch circuit either.
The silver brazing rod is quite common and is in every machinists arsenal of tools. Used to braze most metals. Just tell him it needs to be a silver content greater than 45%. Most are at least 50%.
sel8207
Well-known member
amazing hack
This is what I visit this site for! Amazing machinist hack for restoring a bearing. I wonder if thats taught in books or is it something thats just passed on from the older generation. I have a 59 filtrator dryer also and will probably be doing that same thing to it. BTW does it really matter what type of oil is used in that process? Thanks much. Les.
This is what I visit this site for! Amazing machinist hack for restoring a bearing. I wonder if thats taught in books or is it something thats just passed on from the older generation. I have a 59 filtrator dryer also and will probably be doing that same thing to it. BTW does it really matter what type of oil is used in that process? Thanks much. Les.
Sintered bronze ....
How is oil impregnated bronze made?
Oilite is formed using powder metallurgy so that tiny pores are present in the metal. The pores are then vacuum impregnated with an oil to improve the material's bearing ability. The material holds approximately 20% oil by volume. The most common lubricant is SAE 30 oil.
How is oil impregnated bronze made?
Oilite is formed using powder metallurgy so that tiny pores are present in the metal. The pores are then vacuum impregnated with an oil to improve the material's bearing ability. The material holds approximately 20% oil by volume. The most common lubricant is SAE 30 oil.
And after all hope was nearly abandoned....
The past few weeks have been far more hectic than usual for some reason and had prevented me from doing any serious work on the '59 Frigidaire dryer after I got that bearing re-oiled.
I had been dithering and debating what to do about the switch on the motor that showed evidence of high heat from a bad connection. I finally 'got off the pot' and bought a relay and installed it. I bought 2, as I may use this approach on the '57 GE dryer (if not, there's a very sad '51 Kenmore dryer that will need it!).
The past few weeks have been far more hectic than usual for some reason and had prevented me from doing any serious work on the '59 Frigidaire dryer after I got that bearing re-oiled.
I had been dithering and debating what to do about the switch on the motor that showed evidence of high heat from a bad connection. I finally 'got off the pot' and bought a relay and installed it. I bought 2, as I may use this approach on the '57 GE dryer (if not, there's a very sad '51 Kenmore dryer that will need it!).
I had also managed to lose the Woodruff key that was used to hold the drum drive pulley in place. You would not believe what a pain is was to find a replacement one up here! No one, hardware stores or auto parts stores seemed to have them. One bearing shop in Joliette, QC (former hometown of our own PhilR) said they had them, but wanted me to bring the drum shaft in... Nope.
However.... I made one last try at an auto parts store in Newport, VT when I was over in the US picking up some recent eBay purchases at the post office. I found an assortment pack of Woodruff keys at Advance Auto Parts for a mere $4.27. I found one that fit and well, lookee there - everything went back together again!!
I'm not sure if Canyon was impressed or just glad that I had finished messing with the dryer and would now have time to feed him....
I'm not sure if Canyon was impressed or just glad that I had finished messing with the dryer and would now have time to feed him....
