IT'S A SAD DAY........

[lightedcontrols]

It's a sad day when:
1....most Americans are having to buy dishwashers (because of government issued mandates) that use very little water. This means that your dishes are rinsed with most of the same water that they were washed with. This explains why it takes almost TWO hours to wash and dry your dishes or longer depending on the cycle chosen....This is also why it takes so much Jet Dry to keep your dishes spot free since the sump is full of dirty water.....just look in the sump at the end of the cycle and you'll see what I mean! My new Dacor didn't even drain after the first wash, it "flushes", that is, stops for a moment, drains about a half gallon of water out, and then replaces the discarded water, and on it goes. Not ONCE does it actually drain all of the water out, not even at the END of the cycle! My new Miele dishwashers work the same way. Even though I have to say that the Miele dishwashers are VERY quiet. (I think the reason for this is that when you open the door, the first thing that you notice is that there is NOT much going on in there).....just lots of steam. They wash about as good as any on the market today which isn't saying much.
2...when we have to buy these DREADFUL front loading washers. They use very little water (as the Govt. mandates) and take forever to wash anything. Water, tub, detergent, and clothes all turning at the same time in the same direction = not very good washability....AND, they take f o r e v e r to get in balance on a full load. Manufacturers KNOW that tumble action washing is not very good, thus the L O N G wash times. Wouldn't take a top-loader nearly as long and would get better results. The only positive thing that I can say about them is they do damp dry the clothes fairly well if they EVER get up to full spin speed. My Kenmores took 3 hours and 2 minutes to was a full load of towels. I gave them away. It's just stupid that we have fallen for the outward gimmicks of these dreadful machines. I've also noticed that a lot of front loaders are adding the bleach in the first RINSE. Explanations by manufacturers are offered that the reason for this, is that bleach kills the enzymes in the detergents and so need to added later. However, according to Cindy Roberts at Proctor&Gamble, the enzymes in detergents are only active for about 8 minutes when activated in the wash water. So why is it really going into the first rinse?....and with such small water amounts used for the rinsing process does it all get thoroughly get rinsed out??? The dispensers for fabric softner, beach, and detergent are also poorly engineered. The nice folks at Whirlpool, Kenmore, Maytag, LG, Frigidaire, etc. list in their "Use and Care" manuals how to clean these ineffective dispensers. If they are dispensing as they should, why would they need to be cleaned? I'm glad that I have a stash of top loaders that will get me through my lifetime, as I've bought the LAST front loader, or top loader that mascarades as a front loader (Maytag NeptuneTL)...AND I won't even go into how Maytag has decided to use VEGETABLE oil in the transmission of this machine)
3....when dryers take F O R E V E R to dry! The new Maytag "drying center" takes as long to dry a load of clothes as it did to wash them. The Maytag Neptune TL takes 79 minutes to wash a load of towels. It takes over an hour to dry them, AND THAT'S WITH THE HIGHEST SPEED SPIN OF THE WASHER!!! Clothes come out wrinkled and full of lint. If you try and use the flat racks in the upper cabinet for drying, it automatically cuts the heater element to half power in the lower dryer so that it takes EVEN LONGER!...and of course it takes about 3 hours to dry anything in the top unit. UGH. Now THIS should get you guys thinking and talking! Mark

 

[tolivac]

Who are the politicians that voted for these STUPID energy-water standards??If we can found out-flush them away in the next election with "VOTE-AWAY"In the dishwasher as above-I would rather wash them by HAND and use water in the process.that sudsy water "rinse" would sure flush out your digestive tract!
I don't Buy FL machines either-just buy the vintage TL ones.You do still have a choice.Just do your appliance shopping at the swap shop as I have been doing.In the new Neptune dryer-If it takes 3 HOURS and burns energy in the process---time to dust off the clothesline!!A windy day should dry them faster.-and no utility power consumed!Guess won't waste my money on that Neptune machine.Both of my Moms didn't like FL washers Mother and stepmother. They have used them. I would imagine the machines built today would be diffrent though. I can agree that you do need to use that universal solvent WATER-to clean them-and lots of it.In most homes it is the least expensive utility.Another twist though-I mentioned it earlier at one time-some folks that complain how much water their washers and dishwashers use-say nothing when they pour HUNDREDS of gallons of water on their lawns and gardens-not knowing that water causes runoff pollution!The lawn or plants use VERY little of it.I knew of someone that had a WP Duet machine and didn't like it-he had it returned because he commented "it didn't rinse my clothes enough"He said he put the clothes in a Maytag wringer machine and it frothed up with the suds still in the clothes!He rinsed them in the wringer machine.I also think the FL machines are grossely overpriced!I will just stick to the vintage TL machines. You still have that choice.I can agree GET the POLITICIANS out of the LAUNDRY ROOM! We need to rinse them away with "VOTE-AWAY"

 

[appnut]

Mark, Dacor bought back all their lousy Dacor dishwasheres, was yours included in taht?

I have to admit, there are two FL converts who were skeptical at the 2002 convention. One is gansky1 and the other is an associate in the MD area. They both know how to use their Duets. Plus, they do add a bit of extra water too. And the MD guy as a Miele washer which he likes a lot, and adds water also.

I am one who has to be concerned about water consumption, it's purely economic driven.
My final opinion about FLers with supplemental heaters will remain out until I have one. My experience during the 2002 convention and also using an AEG were very impressive. I don't like the damage chlorine bleach does to fabric.

 

[arrrooohhh]

Lets not get too caried away

Some of us LOVE Front Loaders and they have been in production for over 50 years so they cant be too dreadful THANKYOU VERY MUCH! We are all washing machine enthusiasts and both Top and Front loaders have their place.

Also remember that water consumption is affecting top loaders too which is why some Simpson and Westinghouse and Fisher and Paykel are sold in Australia with "Eco" rinses set as defult.

 

[westytoploader]

Excellent words! Newer is obviously not better...

Mark, you couldn't have said it better!!! I agree 100%, and I'm never buying a new washer or dryer again from what I've seen at Lowe's and everyone's experiences. I've noticed a few things as well...such as:

1. TOL Whirlpool TLs which provide an unusually large lid to deceive the user, but have a small opening and an even smaller tub.

2. GE washers that have a stainless steel tub, but have a VISIBLE SEAM that looks like a Coke can. Now there's quality!

3. A Bosch Nexxt that takes 10 minutes to get up to full spin speed with an EMPTY TUB. I fired one up at Lowe's to see how fast the final spin was and it took forever to reach the 1000 RPM or so, as advertised. I used a Frigemore and it also took forever to reach final spin speed, as well as forever to wash and spin a load. I was amazed at how low the water level was; the clothes were just slapping against the drum during wash/rinse. Not to mention BORING...

I have a "traditional" laundry set, so to speak. A 2003 Maytag Dependable Care TL washer and a 2002 Kenmore Elite dryer. We bought the washer shortly before Maytag pulled the plug on the GOOD design and carried the Norgetags full-time. I can get a load washed and dried in 50-70 minutes, and everything comes out clean. About 1/3 the time that it takes one of these high-efficiency machines to WASH a load. Sure, they're not the most water or energy efficient, but WHO CARES?? I don't, because as of now it looks as if it's either one or the other: Low water usage or clean clothes!

As far as long FL wash times, my 1993 White-Westy "Frigemore-style" FL (separate drive motor & pump) doesn't take nearly as long, because it has a WATER LEVEL CONTROL. That makes all the difference in the world, as well as the entertainment and suds factor of course. I was surprised at how it flew through the wash cycle compared to modern FLs. After the wash cycle was over, water gushed in during drain for a tumble spray rinse. How many modern front-loaders do THAT? It did have a "distribution phase" and didn't go into spin directly, but even that didn't take nearly as long (20 seconds) as the Frigemore or Bosch. While an older Westy would be even shorter, this "halfway machine" is still a far cry from today's FL's.

And, what's up with today's washers not having recirculating lint filters? Another effective feature that has gone up in smoke. And get rid of that stupid dual-action agitator and try something different! I always wondered what would have happened if Kenmore renewed the DA patent...

Yes, I have my Westies, a 1970's GE Convertible Compact Automatic Washer, a 1982 Kenmore 70, and a 1998 DD Kenmore, all of which I'm definitely hanging onto, and I plan to acquire more machines in the future, so hopefully I'll be in good shape as well. One of these days someone will produce NLA parts again for the older, obsolete machines; that would be GREAT.

Just my two cents.

--Austin

 

[Brent-Aucoin]

Consumption

Hey there,
I agree with all of you so much on every level.
I present my two cents worth, to add to the mix.
1. I think that the vintage solid tub washers, front loaders, and combo front loaders were very good with energy.
2. I think that what came after that, was very wastefull. Most of the non-solid machines were water hogs! I think of most of Americans getting rid of solid tub machines and buying these when there vintage babies quit working. These water hogs, across the United States ran for 20 or more years. We are paying for it now, and people are getting scared. We really need to stock up on our water. And do the most with it, and save as much as possible.
3. I love vintage machines! I really do! My experence with newer machines however, has been very positive. I find that the machines on the market today that are energy savers, are very good washers. Clothes are cleaned. And the machines don't use much energy. Times are changing, and energy-saving machines are here to stay.
4. Let's all put our minds together, and come up with a machine of both worlds. We have the brain power here to do it.
My 2-cents worth.
Brent

 

[appnut]

Here Here my buddy Brent. You said it dude.

I must also add that I can't wait to get rid of my 1986 shredmore. Due to economics, I must be mindful of my electric and water use and the new mchines with onboard supplemental heaters will perform much better in the envornment I live in.

 

[kenwashesmonday]

Some opinions of mine:

All dishwashers made in the last 45 years or so use much less water than washing dishes by hand. There is no need to make machines that don't empty/rinse completely.

Front loading clothes washers might be fine for many, but my clothes get really filthy at work and a top loader is what I need unless I want to look like a slob. If it takes 10 gallons per pair of jeans, so be it.

The local water company here in northern New Jersey was sold to a foreign company, and they are selling off water company property like mad. This property is being used to build more insta-mansions and condos. The resivoirs need buffer land, and they're selling it for profit, so I'm supposed to go buy a $1000 washer and go to work in dingy soapy jeans? Forget it!

In many towns, you are not allowed to hang your clothes on a line because they feel it looks trashy. How stupid it that? Forced to buy energy saving appliances, and forced to use them in an inefficient manner!

One of the biggest energy wasters is the frost-free refrigerator. A properly designed 2-door manual defrost only needs defrosting about 2 times a year anyway, but of course nobody makes a good one anymore.

Ken D.

 

[jetcone]

Mulling it all over

Mark tell us how you feel! Is that better now. Wow! I have lately been mulling this all over and I have been trying to get my hands on the Federal document that outlines and defines water usage in laundry machines. It was my understanding this was to be done in phases the with the goal of minimizing energy usage not water usage. The major cost to doing household washing after 60 years is still the commercial energy consumed to heat water to washing temperature.
Excepting the Southwest where water is not a renewable resource, why is the Northeast being slapped with energy saving machines with RIDICULOUS CYCLE TIMES????? Absolutley REEEDICKULOUS TIMES! It takes Paolo's Duet 2 hours to find its spin speed.
The manufacturers have OVER electronified the new products to the point where it is getting in the way of doing laundry.
My Neptune MAH3000 is hitting 5 years, I am still very happy with its washing results ---but having said that-- and using my machine a full year before ever recommending one-- I sit here with egg on my face! I went out and sold 10 pairs to friends and almost everyone of them has either failed or had a major repair in 5 years. Its embarrassing to go around calling myself Dr. Frigidaire the appliance guru and have a majority of my suggestions come home to roost on my doorstep!!!
Shame on MAYTAG you have lost your way especially considering the fact that BENDIX did ALL your work for you from 1936-1945! READ THE PATENTS!!! Gawd they spent what-- $1.5 million dollars on "Researching" the FRONT LOADER and still came up with a FLUB!! All that BENDIX reseach is now public domain FREE!
My machine seems to be the only one that ever worked. I have never had to do a thing to it and I have moved it around the basement 4 times in 5 years without the shiping braces!
I have come to love FRONT LOADERS too but what they are doing to Laundry these days is just wrong!
Ken D is right Fridges are the energy hogs.
I need to read that federal law!!

my2cents
Jet

 

[lightedcontrols]

Hi APPNUT! Dacor discontinued production of the 30" dishwasher because it had so many problems. Their standard dishwasher is still in production. I had planned on putting two of them in my new kitchen but opted for the Miele machines at the last minute. Dacor SHOULD be a great machine...but...they leak, electronic control failure, and are almost impossible to work on unless you remove the machine from the cabinet and tilt it back. Needless to say, my wood floors are scratched as a result. A Dacor rep came out after they replaced the first machine that just would NOT run, and then the replacement we couldn't get to stop leaking. Get this. If the machine leaks, the water is directed into a shallow pan that has a dehydrated sponge (how's this for engineering!?) attached to a cut off switch. The leaked water makes the sponge swell up and causes the switch to turn the machine off. To re-set the switch, you have to pull the machine out from the cabinet and reaching from the front of the machine to the rear of the machine, in about a 3" inch space, with sharp steel at every angle the sponge is replaced and the switch reset. Unbelievable. Now on the other hand, you can get everything in this dishwasher that you've ever dreamed of. Huge platters....everything! There are spray arms under each rack and spray tubes (like the old Frigidaire's) underneath each side of the upper and lower racks. Washability would be the best if the water were drained after each phase of the cycle, but alas, it's not. I KNOW THE GUYS AND GALS HERE ON THE APPLIANCE SITE COULD MAKE THIS A STELLAR APPLIANCE IF THEY WOULD JUST ASK US!!!Mark

 

[lightedcontrols]

Hi Arrooohhh! I've lived in Europe and honestly don't know how you guys can stand those awful machines! Every item of clothing comes out of those machines looking like terribly wrinkled dryer sheets. And those built in water heaters in your washers have to practically boil everything to get anything clean. UGH.

 

[lightedcontrols]

...and APNUT remember, an onboard heater in your washer greatly reduces the energy savings. I'd rather have the water!Mark

 

[tolivac]

I now have a vintage KA dishwasher(replaced a newer WP-KA one)and it does use more water than the newer one-but doesn't matter to me.My water and electric are not that expensive.They try to hawk the water-energy saving machines here-but don't know how well they are selling.A neighbor a few home down from mine bought a FP toploader-don't know the model-saw it being delivored to their house.I am with Kenwashesmonday-FL washers don't do it for me-would rather use my two TL ones.The cost of water in my area(Eastern Pines Water)is so low that a FL machine would never pay for itself here.esp if they last only or less than 5 years.FL fans wouldn't be disappointed here-most of the stores carry 'em.Thats crazy about the local water company sold to foreign interests-talk about security breaches-they could put ANYTHING in your water!I still have a clothesline in my backyard-just may have to dust it off-and wipe the pine sap off the ropes.It is under the pine trees-they could drip their sap on the clothes.I remember clotheslines as STANDARD fixtures in the west and midwest--just about every backyard had one.-and they were used.The colorful clothes were actually quite a sight!Gave color to the neighborhood.Now folks hang out those goofy yard flags instead.Thats a point of the Frost free fridges-that would be a major energy burner-surprized they haven't banned those.I used to have one in an apartment I used to live in years ago.I had to defrost it every two months or so in the summer.Otherwise it would ice up and run all the time.How many people would put up with it thogh?Another gripe I have on the modern FL washers and dishwashers is the LONG cycle times.Time is more precious to me than the water or electricity.The older dishwasher takes less time and does a BETTER job.Least it drains completely between wash and rinse cycles.Whats weird is the folks that live in the Deserts and insists on long Green lawns there!!That a WATER WASTER club for sure.One thing and sort of a question-in the newer FL washers-isn't reheating the water an energy waste right there?You would have the washer motor going and as well as the heater-would think we are wasting more energy than saving.-and the long cycle time to heat the water.

 

[westytoploader]

I will admit, even though the Hotpoint is a "POS", it does drain and refill frequently. Not sure how the new Bosch will do...I'll investigate and post.

 

[rickr]

Water usage

I am with you guys on the water consumption issue. We have three rivers here in Fort Wayne that are forever flooding people out of their homes!(just last week again) No water shortage in the Fort!! If anything we always have TOO MUCH!
So I guess it's ok if I only own water hogging appliances here.I also own three cars that I frequently wash, by hand only,and rinse with plenty of water too. If I lived in Southern California,or some other nice area out West,I would have to mend my evil water wasting ways. However I am stuck here in the Midworst,oops I mean Midwest,where water is always somewhere it shouldn't be anyway.So I shall keep trying to use the water up,until the government figures out a way to pipe it out West.Excuse me while I put a load in on max water level via the GE Filter-Flo.....
Thanks,
Rick

 

[arrrooohhh]

First of all I am from Sydney Australia not Europe. In Australia 70% of washers sold are TL's and 30% of those sales are for Fisher and Paykel.

I have a front loader my sister has a front loader and my brother has a front loader. We are never dirty and nor do our clothes look old dirty or wrinked. In fact I find it offensive people who say that front loaders dont clean properly, are they saying that I am dirty in my appearance? We do not find our clothes exessively wrinkled, and by the time they are dried (on a line) and Ironed what is the problem? I can also add more water to mine, first by choosing the extra water switch for the rinses, or just simply by using a small watering can down the detergent dispenser. But for most of my washing the settings are fine and we dont need to boil anything, most of our cycles are done on 30 degrees.

In contrast my Mum has a Whirlpool DD imported from the states. She hates it and says that it is the worst machine she has ever had (previously only had australian Simpson TLs) It makes a lot of lint and rinses poorly. The DAA too is boring to watch.

I think what Jetcone says it best. Front loaders can be great, so can top loaders and I certainly dont care for any American style top loader. The top loader for me would be a Hoover.

 

[lightedcontrols]

Hi Arrooohhh! You're right. Everything that comes out of those machines DOES have to be ironed. We here in the states are not used to ironing everything that is washed as it wastes way too much time. At my West Virginia house, I have a clothesline and even clothes that come off the line DON'T have to be ironed. I'm using a 59 Frigidaire that was refitted with a Jet Cone agitator. Sorry to see that you are offended by folks that know the TRUTH about front loaders. I've yet to see one of ANY brand outwash a good top loading Frigidaire, Kelvinator, or even a Maytag. I was using a Kenmore Ht3 or whatever it was and it NEVER got anything NEARLY clean in it's two and a half to three hour cycles. Collar soil and ground in dirt on the knees of trousers were especially a problem. I'm with your Mum, I don't like the Whirlpool TL's either, but then a lot of folks swear by them. I have not observed much rollover in the new ones (hence the cruel action agitator) and they do waste LOTS of water. Hope to see you at the wash-in! Mark

 

[laundromat]

water conservation

I am now on my second set of FriGEMores.I have no problem with them using considerably less water than the top loaders.My clothes come out smelling cleaner than they ever did out of ANY top loader and by the second rinse,the water is crystal clear and free of suds.I use GainHE,AllHE,WiskHE,and NEVER use bleach.My clothes come out gleaming.I also use either Suavatel(Colgate Palmolive)or Gain fabric softner.My clothes also get less wear and tare as they did in the agitating type washers.I save money on electricity,water,detergent,fabric softner,dry cleaning bills,and buying new clothes to replace the ones worn out by my washer.I am not too keen on electronic touc controls or 72 minute cycles.Mine has a quic cycly that washes for 8 minutes and rinses twice then spins 950rpms for 3 minutes for a total of 19 minutes!!I use that cycle more than any other.The clothes in the dryer either dry just before or during the end of the final spin.

 

[arrrooohhh]

I might make a little correction about my previous post.

I only iron trousers and dress shirts. These i was in my machine in the synthetic cycle that they were designed for. They dont need to be spun and the highest speed and as for my trousers, I DONT even need to iron them, I do so mainly out of habit. My FL takes care of them just fine. I think Australians are monstly in the habit of ironing most outer wear.

Under wear and t shirts dont need to be ironed and these I spin at high speed. I also always wait till the machine is full too, I have enough clothes to wait! LOL! Mine (a Bendix) only takes an hour and a half not three, and I cant comment on HE3ts as they are not available in my country yet.

As for the TRUTH about front or top loaders there is no TRUTH, only personal opinions and mine is as valid as the next persons.

I am afraid that I will never get to wash my clothes in a Jet Cone frigidaire, or Kelvinator, so I can only use what is available to me. Ideally I would like to have a top and a front loader, for fun, but as a flat dweller, a consumer who has done research, and a washer lover as far back as my memory serves me, It will be a front loader in my small laundry space.

It would be great to go to a washin, but I think my finances wont allow me for the next few years anyway