IT'S A SAD DAY........

[lightedcontrols]

It's a sad day when:
1....most Americans are having to buy dishwashers (because of government issued mandates) that use very little water. This means that your dishes are rinsed with most of the same water that they were washed with. This explains why it takes almost TWO hours to wash and dry your dishes or longer depending on the cycle chosen....This is also why it takes so much Jet Dry to keep your dishes spot free since the sump is full of dirty water.....just look in the sump at the end of the cycle and you'll see what I mean! My new Dacor didn't even drain after the first wash, it "flushes", that is, stops for a moment, drains about a half gallon of water out, and then replaces the discarded water, and on it goes. Not ONCE does it actually drain all of the water out, not even at the END of the cycle! My new Miele dishwashers work the same way. Even though I have to say that the Miele dishwashers are VERY quiet. (I think the reason for this is that when you open the door, the first thing that you notice is that there is NOT much going on in there).....just lots of steam. They wash about as good as any on the market today which isn't saying much.
2...when we have to buy these DREADFUL front loading washers. They use very little water (as the Govt. mandates) and take forever to wash anything. Water, tub, detergent, and clothes all turning at the same time in the same direction = not very good washability....AND, they take f o r e v e r to get in balance on a full load. Manufacturers KNOW that tumble action washing is not very good, thus the L O N G wash times. Wouldn't take a top-loader nearly as long and would get better results. The only positive thing that I can say about them is they do damp dry the clothes fairly well if they EVER get up to full spin speed. My Kenmores took 3 hours and 2 minutes to was a full load of towels. I gave them away. It's just stupid that we have fallen for the outward gimmicks of these dreadful machines. I've also noticed that a lot of front loaders are adding the bleach in the first RINSE. Explanations by manufacturers are offered that the reason for this, is that bleach kills the enzymes in the detergents and so need to added later. However, according to Cindy Roberts at Proctor&Gamble, the enzymes in detergents are only active for about 8 minutes when activated in the wash water. So why is it really going into the first rinse?....and with such small water amounts used for the rinsing process does it all get thoroughly get rinsed out??? The dispensers for fabric softner, beach, and detergent are also poorly engineered. The nice folks at Whirlpool, Kenmore, Maytag, LG, Frigidaire, etc. list in their "Use and Care" manuals how to clean these ineffective dispensers. If they are dispensing as they should, why would they need to be cleaned? I'm glad that I have a stash of top loaders that will get me through my lifetime, as I've bought the LAST front loader, or top loader that mascarades as a front loader (Maytag NeptuneTL)...AND I won't even go into how Maytag has decided to use VEGETABLE oil in the transmission of this machine)
3....when dryers take F O R E V E R to dry! The new Maytag "drying center" takes as long to dry a load of clothes as it did to wash them. The Maytag Neptune TL takes 79 minutes to wash a load of towels. It takes over an hour to dry them, AND THAT'S WITH THE HIGHEST SPEED SPIN OF THE WASHER!!! Clothes come out wrinkled and full of lint. If you try and use the flat racks in the upper cabinet for drying, it automatically cuts the heater element to half power in the lower dryer so that it takes EVEN LONGER!...and of course it takes about 3 hours to dry anything in the top unit. UGH. Now THIS should get you guys thinking and talking! Mark

 

[tolivac]

Who are the politicians that voted for these STUPID energy-water standards??If we can found out-flush them away in the next election with "VOTE-AWAY"In the dishwasher as above-I would rather wash them by HAND and use water in the process.that sudsy water "rinse" would sure flush out your digestive tract!
I don't Buy FL machines either-just buy the vintage TL ones.You do still have a choice.Just do your appliance shopping at the swap shop as I have been doing.In the new Neptune dryer-If it takes 3 HOURS and burns energy in the process---time to dust off the clothesline!!A windy day should dry them faster.-and no utility power consumed!Guess won't waste my money on that Neptune machine.Both of my Moms didn't like FL washers Mother and stepmother. They have used them. I would imagine the machines built today would be diffrent though. I can agree that you do need to use that universal solvent WATER-to clean them-and lots of it.In most homes it is the least expensive utility.Another twist though-I mentioned it earlier at one time-some folks that complain how much water their washers and dishwashers use-say nothing when they pour HUNDREDS of gallons of water on their lawns and gardens-not knowing that water causes runoff pollution!The lawn or plants use VERY little of it.I knew of someone that had a WP Duet machine and didn't like it-he had it returned because he commented "it didn't rinse my clothes enough"He said he put the clothes in a Maytag wringer machine and it frothed up with the suds still in the clothes!He rinsed them in the wringer machine.I also think the FL machines are grossely overpriced!I will just stick to the vintage TL machines. You still have that choice.I can agree GET the POLITICIANS out of the LAUNDRY ROOM! We need to rinse them away with "VOTE-AWAY"

 

[appnut]

Mark, Dacor bought back all their lousy Dacor dishwasheres, was yours included in taht?

I have to admit, there are two FL converts who were skeptical at the 2002 convention. One is gansky1 and the other is an associate in the MD area. They both know how to use their Duets. Plus, they do add a bit of extra water too. And the MD guy as a Miele washer which he likes a lot, and adds water also.

I am one who has to be concerned about water consumption, it's purely economic driven.
My final opinion about FLers with supplemental heaters will remain out until I have one. My experience during the 2002 convention and also using an AEG were very impressive. I don't like the damage chlorine bleach does to fabric.

 

[arrrooohhh]

Lets not get too caried away

Some of us LOVE Front Loaders and they have been in production for over 50 years so they cant be too dreadful THANKYOU VERY MUCH! We are all washing machine enthusiasts and both Top and Front loaders have their place.

Also remember that water consumption is affecting top loaders too which is why some Simpson and Westinghouse and Fisher and Paykel are sold in Australia with "Eco" rinses set as defult.

 

[westytoploader]

Excellent words! Newer is obviously not better...

Mark, you couldn't have said it better!!! I agree 100%, and I'm never buying a new washer or dryer again from what I've seen at Lowe's and everyone's experiences. I've noticed a few things as well...such as:

1. TOL Whirlpool TLs which provide an unusually large lid to deceive the user, but have a small opening and an even smaller tub.

2. GE washers that have a stainless steel tub, but have a VISIBLE SEAM that looks like a Coke can. Now there's quality!

3. A Bosch Nexxt that takes 10 minutes to get up to full spin speed with an EMPTY TUB. I fired one up at Lowe's to see how fast the final spin was and it took forever to reach the 1000 RPM or so, as advertised. I used a Frigemore and it also took forever to reach final spin speed, as well as forever to wash and spin a load. I was amazed at how low the water level was; the clothes were just slapping against the drum during wash/rinse. Not to mention BORING...

I have a "traditional" laundry set, so to speak. A 2003 Maytag Dependable Care TL washer and a 2002 Kenmore Elite dryer. We bought the washer shortly before Maytag pulled the plug on the GOOD design and carried the Norgetags full-time. I can get a load washed and dried in 50-70 minutes, and everything comes out clean. About 1/3 the time that it takes one of these high-efficiency machines to WASH a load. Sure, they're not the most water or energy efficient, but WHO CARES?? I don't, because as of now it looks as if it's either one or the other: Low water usage or clean clothes!

As far as long FL wash times, my 1993 White-Westy "Frigemore-style" FL (separate drive motor & pump) doesn't take nearly as long, because it has a WATER LEVEL CONTROL. That makes all the difference in the world, as well as the entertainment and suds factor of course. I was surprised at how it flew through the wash cycle compared to modern FLs. After the wash cycle was over, water gushed in during drain for a tumble spray rinse. How many modern front-loaders do THAT? It did have a "distribution phase" and didn't go into spin directly, but even that didn't take nearly as long (20 seconds) as the Frigemore or Bosch. While an older Westy would be even shorter, this "halfway machine" is still a far cry from today's FL's.

And, what's up with today's washers not having recirculating lint filters? Another effective feature that has gone up in smoke. And get rid of that stupid dual-action agitator and try something different! I always wondered what would have happened if Kenmore renewed the DA patent...

Yes, I have my Westies, a 1970's GE Convertible Compact Automatic Washer, a 1982 Kenmore 70, and a 1998 DD Kenmore, all of which I'm definitely hanging onto, and I plan to acquire more machines in the future, so hopefully I'll be in good shape as well. One of these days someone will produce NLA parts again for the older, obsolete machines; that would be GREAT.

Just my two cents.

--Austin

 

[Brent-Aucoin]

Consumption

Hey there,
I agree with all of you so much on every level.
I present my two cents worth, to add to the mix.
1. I think that the vintage solid tub washers, front loaders, and combo front loaders were very good with energy.
2. I think that what came after that, was very wastefull. Most of the non-solid machines were water hogs! I think of most of Americans getting rid of solid tub machines and buying these when there vintage babies quit working. These water hogs, across the United States ran for 20 or more years. We are paying for it now, and people are getting scared. We really need to stock up on our water. And do the most with it, and save as much as possible.
3. I love vintage machines! I really do! My experence with newer machines however, has been very positive. I find that the machines on the market today that are energy savers, are very good washers. Clothes are cleaned. And the machines don't use much energy. Times are changing, and energy-saving machines are here to stay.
4. Let's all put our minds together, and come up with a machine of both worlds. We have the brain power here to do it.
My 2-cents worth.
Brent

 

[appnut]

Here Here my buddy Brent. You said it dude.

I must also add that I can't wait to get rid of my 1986 shredmore. Due to economics, I must be mindful of my electric and water use and the new mchines with onboard supplemental heaters will perform much better in the envornment I live in.

 

[kenwashesmonday]

Some opinions of mine:

All dishwashers made in the last 45 years or so use much less water than washing dishes by hand. There is no need to make machines that don't empty/rinse completely.

Front loading clothes washers might be fine for many, but my clothes get really filthy at work and a top loader is what I need unless I want to look like a slob. If it takes 10 gallons per pair of jeans, so be it.

The local water company here in northern New Jersey was sold to a foreign company, and they are selling off water company property like mad. This property is being used to build more insta-mansions and condos. The resivoirs need buffer land, and they're selling it for profit, so I'm supposed to go buy a $1000 washer and go to work in dingy soapy jeans? Forget it!

In many towns, you are not allowed to hang your clothes on a line because they feel it looks trashy. How stupid it that? Forced to buy energy saving appliances, and forced to use them in an inefficient manner!

One of the biggest energy wasters is the frost-free refrigerator. A properly designed 2-door manual defrost only needs defrosting about 2 times a year anyway, but of course nobody makes a good one anymore.

Ken D.

 

[jetcone]

Mulling it all over

Mark tell us how you feel! Is that better now. Wow! I have lately been mulling this all over and I have been trying to get my hands on the Federal document that outlines and defines water usage in laundry machines. It was my understanding this was to be done in phases the with the goal of minimizing energy usage not water usage. The major cost to doing household washing after 60 years is still the commercial energy consumed to heat water to washing temperature.
Excepting the Southwest where water is not a renewable resource, why is the Northeast being slapped with energy saving machines with RIDICULOUS CYCLE TIMES????? Absolutley REEEDICKULOUS TIMES! It takes Paolo's Duet 2 hours to find its spin speed.
The manufacturers have OVER electronified the new products to the point where it is getting in the way of doing laundry.
My Neptune MAH3000 is hitting 5 years, I am still very happy with its washing results ---but having said that-- and using my machine a full year before ever recommending one-- I sit here with egg on my face! I went out and sold 10 pairs to friends and almost everyone of them has either failed or had a major repair in 5 years. Its embarrassing to go around calling myself Dr. Frigidaire the appliance guru and have a majority of my suggestions come home to roost on my doorstep!!!
Shame on MAYTAG you have lost your way especially considering the fact that BENDIX did ALL your work for you from 1936-1945! READ THE PATENTS!!! Gawd they spent what-- $1.5 million dollars on "Researching" the FRONT LOADER and still came up with a FLUB!! All that BENDIX reseach is now public domain FREE!
My machine seems to be the only one that ever worked. I have never had to do a thing to it and I have moved it around the basement 4 times in 5 years without the shiping braces!
I have come to love FRONT LOADERS too but what they are doing to Laundry these days is just wrong!
Ken D is right Fridges are the energy hogs.
I need to read that federal law!!

my2cents
Jet

 

[lightedcontrols]

Hi APPNUT! Dacor discontinued production of the 30" dishwasher because it had so many problems. Their standard dishwasher is still in production. I had planned on putting two of them in my new kitchen but opted for the Miele machines at the last minute. Dacor SHOULD be a great machine...but...they leak, electronic control failure, and are almost impossible to work on unless you remove the machine from the cabinet and tilt it back. Needless to say, my wood floors are scratched as a result. A Dacor rep came out after they replaced the first machine that just would NOT run, and then the replacement we couldn't get to stop leaking. Get this. If the machine leaks, the water is directed into a shallow pan that has a dehydrated sponge (how's this for engineering!?) attached to a cut off switch. The leaked water makes the sponge swell up and causes the switch to turn the machine off. To re-set the switch, you have to pull the machine out from the cabinet and reaching from the front of the machine to the rear of the machine, in about a 3" inch space, with sharp steel at every angle the sponge is replaced and the switch reset. Unbelievable. Now on the other hand, you can get everything in this dishwasher that you've ever dreamed of. Huge platters....everything! There are spray arms under each rack and spray tubes (like the old Frigidaire's) underneath each side of the upper and lower racks. Washability would be the best if the water were drained after each phase of the cycle, but alas, it's not. I KNOW THE GUYS AND GALS HERE ON THE APPLIANCE SITE COULD MAKE THIS A STELLAR APPLIANCE IF THEY WOULD JUST ASK US!!!Mark

 

[lightedcontrols]

Hi Arrooohhh! I've lived in Europe and honestly don't know how you guys can stand those awful machines! Every item of clothing comes out of those machines looking like terribly wrinkled dryer sheets. And those built in water heaters in your washers have to practically boil everything to get anything clean. UGH.

 

[lightedcontrols]

...and APNUT remember, an onboard heater in your washer greatly reduces the energy savings. I'd rather have the water!Mark

 

[tolivac]

I now have a vintage KA dishwasher(replaced a newer WP-KA one)and it does use more water than the newer one-but doesn't matter to me.My water and electric are not that expensive.They try to hawk the water-energy saving machines here-but don't know how well they are selling.A neighbor a few home down from mine bought a FP toploader-don't know the model-saw it being delivored to their house.I am with Kenwashesmonday-FL washers don't do it for me-would rather use my two TL ones.The cost of water in my area(Eastern Pines Water)is so low that a FL machine would never pay for itself here.esp if they last only or less than 5 years.FL fans wouldn't be disappointed here-most of the stores carry 'em.Thats crazy about the local water company sold to foreign interests-talk about security breaches-they could put ANYTHING in your water!I still have a clothesline in my backyard-just may have to dust it off-and wipe the pine sap off the ropes.It is under the pine trees-they could drip their sap on the clothes.I remember clotheslines as STANDARD fixtures in the west and midwest--just about every backyard had one.-and they were used.The colorful clothes were actually quite a sight!Gave color to the neighborhood.Now folks hang out those goofy yard flags instead.Thats a point of the Frost free fridges-that would be a major energy burner-surprized they haven't banned those.I used to have one in an apartment I used to live in years ago.I had to defrost it every two months or so in the summer.Otherwise it would ice up and run all the time.How many people would put up with it thogh?Another gripe I have on the modern FL washers and dishwashers is the LONG cycle times.Time is more precious to me than the water or electricity.The older dishwasher takes less time and does a BETTER job.Least it drains completely between wash and rinse cycles.Whats weird is the folks that live in the Deserts and insists on long Green lawns there!!That a WATER WASTER club for sure.One thing and sort of a question-in the newer FL washers-isn't reheating the water an energy waste right there?You would have the washer motor going and as well as the heater-would think we are wasting more energy than saving.-and the long cycle time to heat the water.

 

[westytoploader]

I will admit, even though the Hotpoint is a "POS", it does drain and refill frequently. Not sure how the new Bosch will do...I'll investigate and post.

 

[rickr]

Water usage

I am with you guys on the water consumption issue. We have three rivers here in Fort Wayne that are forever flooding people out of their homes!(just last week again) No water shortage in the Fort!! If anything we always have TOO MUCH!
So I guess it's ok if I only own water hogging appliances here.I also own three cars that I frequently wash, by hand only,and rinse with plenty of water too. If I lived in Southern California,or some other nice area out West,I would have to mend my evil water wasting ways. However I am stuck here in the Midworst,oops I mean Midwest,where water is always somewhere it shouldn't be anyway.So I shall keep trying to use the water up,until the government figures out a way to pipe it out West.Excuse me while I put a load in on max water level via the GE Filter-Flo.....
Thanks,
Rick

 

[arrrooohhh]

First of all I am from Sydney Australia not Europe. In Australia 70% of washers sold are TL's and 30% of those sales are for Fisher and Paykel.

I have a front loader my sister has a front loader and my brother has a front loader. We are never dirty and nor do our clothes look old dirty or wrinked. In fact I find it offensive people who say that front loaders dont clean properly, are they saying that I am dirty in my appearance? We do not find our clothes exessively wrinkled, and by the time they are dried (on a line) and Ironed what is the problem? I can also add more water to mine, first by choosing the extra water switch for the rinses, or just simply by using a small watering can down the detergent dispenser. But for most of my washing the settings are fine and we dont need to boil anything, most of our cycles are done on 30 degrees.

In contrast my Mum has a Whirlpool DD imported from the states. She hates it and says that it is the worst machine she has ever had (previously only had australian Simpson TLs) It makes a lot of lint and rinses poorly. The DAA too is boring to watch.

I think what Jetcone says it best. Front loaders can be great, so can top loaders and I certainly dont care for any American style top loader. The top loader for me would be a Hoover.

 

[lightedcontrols]

Hi Arrooohhh! You're right. Everything that comes out of those machines DOES have to be ironed. We here in the states are not used to ironing everything that is washed as it wastes way too much time. At my West Virginia house, I have a clothesline and even clothes that come off the line DON'T have to be ironed. I'm using a 59 Frigidaire that was refitted with a Jet Cone agitator. Sorry to see that you are offended by folks that know the TRUTH about front loaders. I've yet to see one of ANY brand outwash a good top loading Frigidaire, Kelvinator, or even a Maytag. I was using a Kenmore Ht3 or whatever it was and it NEVER got anything NEARLY clean in it's two and a half to three hour cycles. Collar soil and ground in dirt on the knees of trousers were especially a problem. I'm with your Mum, I don't like the Whirlpool TL's either, but then a lot of folks swear by them. I have not observed much rollover in the new ones (hence the cruel action agitator) and they do waste LOTS of water. Hope to see you at the wash-in! Mark

 

[laundromat]

water conservation

I am now on my second set of FriGEMores.I have no problem with them using considerably less water than the top loaders.My clothes come out smelling cleaner than they ever did out of ANY top loader and by the second rinse,the water is crystal clear and free of suds.I use GainHE,AllHE,WiskHE,and NEVER use bleach.My clothes come out gleaming.I also use either Suavatel(Colgate Palmolive)or Gain fabric softner.My clothes also get less wear and tare as they did in the agitating type washers.I save money on electricity,water,detergent,fabric softner,dry cleaning bills,and buying new clothes to replace the ones worn out by my washer.I am not too keen on electronic touc controls or 72 minute cycles.Mine has a quic cycly that washes for 8 minutes and rinses twice then spins 950rpms for 3 minutes for a total of 19 minutes!!I use that cycle more than any other.The clothes in the dryer either dry just before or during the end of the final spin.

 

[arrrooohhh]

I might make a little correction about my previous post.

I only iron trousers and dress shirts. These i was in my machine in the synthetic cycle that they were designed for. They dont need to be spun and the highest speed and as for my trousers, I DONT even need to iron them, I do so mainly out of habit. My FL takes care of them just fine. I think Australians are monstly in the habit of ironing most outer wear.

Under wear and t shirts dont need to be ironed and these I spin at high speed. I also always wait till the machine is full too, I have enough clothes to wait! LOL! Mine (a Bendix) only takes an hour and a half not three, and I cant comment on HE3ts as they are not available in my country yet.

As for the TRUTH about front or top loaders there is no TRUTH, only personal opinions and mine is as valid as the next persons.

I am afraid that I will never get to wash my clothes in a Jet Cone frigidaire, or Kelvinator, so I can only use what is available to me. Ideally I would like to have a top and a front loader, for fun, but as a flat dweller, a consumer who has done research, and a washer lover as far back as my memory serves me, It will be a front loader in my small laundry space.

It would be great to go to a washin, but I think my finances wont allow me for the next few years anyway

 

[gansky1]

I have been using the Duet washer since last May with no major complaints so far. I think it does a fairly good job rinsing most loads and have only had one issue with a tangled ball of sweats that it just couldn't spin. I noticed it struggling and put it out of it's misery before it had to cry for help but other than that instance, there haven't been any problems. I seldom augment the cycles with more water, normally I set the machine and walk away. With all the good things I've come to appreciate in this washer, I have to admit that I never use it for washing bath towels - those go exclusively in a Frigidaire. If I were forced to move that I could only have a laundry closet, I'd stack the Duets right next to the 58 Frigidaire!

 

[geoff]

Riding the possibly neutral fence.

I do laundry for one of my closest friends. Sometimes I do it at my house, sometimes I do it at his house. In his house, he has a GE Profile "FriGEmore" frontloader. At my house I have the 70's Whirlpool Supreme Super Capacity. When I do his laundry in the front loader, the cycle times are absolutely astronomical. I always select an extra rinse and use the "cotton" cycle. I use HE detergent and his favorite fabric softener. When I wash in mine, I use regular detergent, a lot more of it, and his favorite fabric softener. Maybe I underload the front loader terribly, but it seems I can wash more in my Whirlpool than I can in his GE. Herein though lies the rub. When I go to grab a towel out of his closet, I can tell what machine I used to wash them in. The towels washed in my machine have a very light fabric softener scent, the towels washed in his front loader have a a Heavy fabric softener scent. I use the same amount of softener in both machines, which is to the lower line in the cap. His machine does something like 4-6 rinses and mine does the deep rinse plus 4 spray rinses. still, even with all of those rinses in the front loader, the towels and clothes have a heavy softener scent to them. One time he asked me after I washed all of his clothes in my machine, "Did you use fabric softener??" I replied "yes, of course. Why?" He said that he couldn't really smell it. I reassured him that I used the same amount that I do at his house in his machine. I also use the extra rinse setting on his. So my senses tell me that his clothes are not rinsed as well when I use the frontloader. When it finally does kick into the final spin, you can see a froth of suds running down the window. In my machine, the deep rinses are always clear and sudsless. I do tend to use the "Quick wash" cycle on his machine which washes and rinses twice. I use this cycle just because it takes way too long to use any other cycle. No matter what machine I use, his clothes always come out clean. I just feel they are rinsed better in my WP. Now drying, that's a whole other story that I can't quite understand. His dryer is a GE Profile WCI clone, Mine is a Kenmore Elite 7 cubic foot. His washer spins at 950RPM, mine at 525. Yet clothes take a MUCH shorter time to dry in my dryer than his. A load of sheets takes 20 minutes in my dryer as opposed to 30-40 in his. Go figure. Well, I can now clearly see that I'm rambling. I guess the moral of the story is, I'm not really sold on Front-Loaders and I don't particularly like using them, but, as the saying goes "To each his own".

Geoff

 

[kenmore1978]

To be fair

".when we have to buy these DREADFUL front loading washers. They use very little water (as the Govt. mandates) and take forever to wash anything. Water, tub, detergent, and clothes all turning at the same time in the same direction = not very good washability.."

Not true for ALL FL machines, just some.

"I've also noticed that a lot of front loaders are adding the bleach in the first RINSE. Explanations by manufacturers are offered that the reason for this, is that bleach kills the enzymes in the detergents and so need to added later. However, according to Cindy Roberts at Proctor&Gamble, the enzymes in detergents are only active for about 8 minutes when activated in the wash water. So why is it really going into the first rinse?....and with such small water amounts used for the rinsing process does it all get thoroughly get rinsed out???"

Bleach in the first rinse makes sense, since even in the old days bleach dispensers put the bleach in usually in the last 5 minutes because bleach tends to de-activate ANY detergent, not just enzyme detergents. This is mentioned in may instruction books. And remember, FL machines have multiple rinses, whereas TL machines do not, so I don't see a rinsing problem with the bleach being added to the first rinse.

"The dispensers for fabric softner, beach, and detergent are also poorly engineered. The nice folks at Whirlpool, Kenmore, Maytag, LG, Frigidaire, etc. list in their "Use and Care" manuals how to clean these ineffective dispensers. If they are dispensing as they should, why would they need to be cleaned?"

Fabric softener dispensers need to be cleaned on ANY machine, new or old, eventually. The FS part of the Triple dispenser on my '78 KM gets REALLY grungy after a while, even though it is flushed out with water by the machine. Took apart the reservoir type FS dispenser on a '63 KM machine I used to have and it was GROSS, and not even MEANT to be cleaned. Disassembled a agitator-mounted FS dispenser on KM my Mom had and it had multiple layers of differnet colors of dried up softener inside of it. There's no escaping it, no matter what dispensing system is used.

"If you try and use the flat racks in the upper cabinet for drying, it automatically cuts the heater element to half power in the lower dryer so that it takes EVEN LONGER!...and of course it takes about 3 hours to dry anything in the top unit. UGH."

That is a problem only with the ELECTRIC version of the Drying Center, since power consumption has to remain within the 30 amps alloted by the standard dryer outlet. The gas version doesn't have this limitation

 

[Designgeek]

This isn't an "either/or," it's an engineering challenge!

It's easy to get all negative, but far more satisfying to build something that works. (Otherwise no one here would spend time rebuilding antique appliances!)

Water is a regional issue, some areas having too much, others too little, and others "enough for now." However, everyone who has studied the issue of water resources worldwide, with the exception of a few flat-earthers, recognizes clearly that water shortages will be a major issue in this century, up to & including the potential for local wars breaking out over water in some parts of the world.

If you live in a region with truly plentiful water, go ahead and use it. And if you're living in a region of scarcity, you have to make do with less, so deal with it. The latter case is the one that makes for an interesting design challenge: how to develop technology that really does wash effectively with less water (and without being boring to watch either!).

Now it turns out there's another potential solution for this one. Graywater recycling. Take the used laundry water, filter it, clean it, store it in a tank, and use it to flush the toilets. The technology to make this fully user-transparent is remarkably simple. Simpler versions (lower cost) require a bit of manual involvement, i.e. operating the valves and pumps and so on. During the time I've been hanging out on this board I've been designing & developing graywater systems, including one for apartments. I'll shortly be installing one of my new designs in my place as a test case. I'll post more information as results come in, but there is already some interest in making a commercial product out of this.

Bottom line is, with decent graywater recovery and reasonably intelligent landscaping, water consumption can be reduced significantly, without impacting personal hygiene in any way (showers, clothes, dishes, toilet use). And you can still use the antique TL of your choice if you like. Best of both worlds; win/win.

 

[Designgeek]

As far as energy is concerned, go look up "peak oil" on the web, or find a copy of National Geographic from June 2004, cover story "The End of Cheap Oil." Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, folks, but according to the best available estimates, world oil production is going to reach its maximum in a few years and then level off and decline. Think of "the 1970s gas crisis on steroids, with compound interest, forever." The bottom line here is, there is no way the world can possibly make up for what it's about to lose as oil production plateaus and declines. However we can certainly try.

This means a massive effort to develop non-fossil energy resources, starting ten years ago, but starting now is better than never. Starting with major construction of nuclear reactors and utility-scale wind installations, and light rail, and numerous other engineering projects. It means quadrupling the fuel efficiency of automobiles, and replacing commuting with telecommuting wherever possible. (You'll still be able to keep your 50s Caddy and take it for a cruise from time to time, but for day-to-day tasks you'll probably use a plug-in diesel hybrid that runs on, yep you guessed it, vegetable oil for longer trips.)

Those of us who appreciate the value of electricity should be supporting every nuclear and wind and solar project that comes along. Including going to the public hearings and speaking on the record, to counteract the influence of NIMBYs and "views-first" types who are scared of nuclear reactors or don't want to look at wind turbines on the horizon.

But in any case, comes the issue of energy efficiency in appliances.

For fridges the simple solution is to mount the compressor and radiator on the top (so the heat rises away from the cabinet, rather than radiating into the back of the cabinet), and increase the amount of insulation, and do away with the "frost free" nonsense. See also www.sunfrost.com, and realize that there is no reason why every major manufacturer can't do likewise if they choose.

After the fridge comes the dryer.

I agree about the joys of outdoor clothes lines; they make neighborhoods look like someone lives there! But if you can't do that, then: a) Centrifugal extractors. Spin-X or equivalent. Or the spin-tub in twin-tub washers. Any of these reduce dryer-time from one-third to one-half. b) Indoor clothes line overnight, and then into the dryer the next day to get the last of the dampness out. Reduces dryer time to even less, i.e. as little as 15 minutes.

Power consumption by washers is far less significant than dryers or fridges, unless you use the water heating cycle (and in many places, a solar hot water system will give you all the piping-hot water you could ever want).

However, I've seen a few threads on this board that say essentially, "hey, we're appliance geeks, we can invent a better washer." Excellent, let's do it. Let's come up with something that cleans better, uses less power, isn't boring to watch, and embodies the best mid-20th-century style. Maybe it can even be sold to a manufacturer, who can patent it and put it into production. It's worth a try.

Where I work we say "good technicians don't blame, they fix." Blame is a waste of time; getting stuck at the "angry about a problem" stage is a waste of effort. It's far more satisfying and productive to focus on fixing things and inventing.

 

[gyrafoam]

and another thing-------

There have been so many features that have been invented over the years for use in the top loaders, but the current manufacturers just will not "come out of the box" and put them all together in one unit! One of the machines that comes to mind is the Frigidaire "Roller-Matic" 1-18. It encompassed many features, but lacked a truly High Speed spin option and ohhhhh the lack of soundproofing! Or the old Maytag "Helical Drive" machines. My 1968 Model#806 (Large Tub) is a really good machine! But it too lacks a truly High Speed spin option and the tub opening is fairly small for a machine with such a large capacity. Oh well---I'm dreaming. I have not had much expierence with front-loaders, but have owned a 1997 FriGEMore since new. I don't think it gets my gardening clothes very clean, and of course unless using Fab detergent one cannot use extra detergent without having an oversudsing issue. It does not rinse very well either and I do hate the amount of time it takes to do a load. When it comes to truly trashed clothes give me a "Unimatic"! I don't like airplanes that re-circulate the cabin air and a dishwasher that re-uses the water is equally repulsive. A dishwasher should backwash the filter and completely drain and re-fill for every phase of the cycle! Oh, and as for the bleach issue, Clorox has that newer type thick "Splashless" bleach on the market and my understanding is that they have altered it so that it does not create the fabric damage that regular (uncontrolled) Chlorine bleach does. I use it all the time. I do put it in about the last half of the wash cycle as I want as much of it rinsed out as possible. I always added it to my FriGEMore that way, never used the stupid dispenser that added it to the rinse. And Mark is right make the dispensers so that they clean themselves! O.K. next person---------

 

[peteski50]

IT'S A SAD DAY

I have to agree with most of the Opinions I just read. It's amazing that we advanced in technology in so many ways. But went backwards in so many ways. The wrong people are doing all the inventing. For instance I like my LG 3677 combo. I knew when I bought the machine the drying would be long. But I didn't realize that it would take 70 to 90 minutes for the wash rinse spin. They claim that the direct drive is so much of a better principal than the belt drive principal. I don't see how! So much time is wasted balancing a load before a spin. It's amazing like stated that a typical new dishwasher takes 2 hours or more. The advertisements state their are automatic sensors to detect more or less dirt. From my observations these sensors are useless. They only change the sequence of the cycles by minutes. What happened to real progress. I remember the 18 minute Frigidaire jetaction laundromat wash from years ago. Amazing in 18 minutes you would get a amazing clean wash that you may not get in a washer that runs forever in todays standard. Just my 2 cents. I could go on and on. I am still in the process of trying to find out if I can go to the convention. I hope I can if not I will see everyone another time.
Peter

 

[peterh770]

The sad truth about Americans is that some people just cannot adapt to front load washing.

I went from my litle FL Kenmore to a TOL Maytag (first model line with the timer to the right) to a WIA 1-18 to a Miele 1918. The Maytag was the worst of the bunch. The 1-18 had the best capacity, but the frontloaders beat them all. The Miele is fantasic. Maybe because I don't sit around and wait for laundry to get done -- multi-tasking -- I have no problem with long cycle times, and if I need a short cycle, skip a phase, add water, I can do it no problem. I learned how to get good washing and relatively few wrinkles.

There are some very good choices out there for a modern washer, you have to get to know them and adapt to them. If you can't or choose not to, then may your warehouse, basement, garage or living room remain full of machines that will make you happy!

 

[lightedcontrols]

Hi Everyone! Thanks for all your comments. Just thought I'd liven up the group conversation a little. Now remember, "your clothes won't come clean without a good layer of suds" -Mom (now of course we can argue this point also!)Mark

 

[lightedcontrols]

Hi PeterH770! You're right! We don't want to adapt to those dreadful front loading machines!!!....and I don't think America is going to the metric sysytem (remember that push a few years ago?) anytime soon either! I've yet to talk to anyone that has bought a front loader, excepting a few of those in this club, that likes those awful things. The Sears warehouse in Saint Petersburg, Fla. is full of returned FL's. (and of course the the Whirlpool Calypso's)Mark PS Hope you can make the wash-in!

 

[coldspot66]

As a repair tech, ppl ask me all the time about those "new" front load washers!!lol I say they are not really "new". I do tell them that you have to "think" differently with a f/l. Less water, HE detergent, longer cycle times, faster spin etc. I try to tell them all this b4 they buy one and start complaining or become disappointed. I also say that spending $1000. on a washer will NOT change your life or eliminate laundry altogether!