KA bites the dust again: A shoppping I will go

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petek

petek

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Tonight in the midst of washing a load our KA (circa 2005)dw quit. The display panel is dead aka no lights, circuit is fine. Harken back to 2006 when we bought this house the previous owner had just installed it in 2005 I believe and it quit on us sometime shortly after. The heater needed replacing and they did a circuit board upgrade iirc per a recall or something. I don't think it's worth the cost of repairing which is bound to cost a few hundred dollars for a service call, parts and labor so I'm going to replace it. No point in saying get a trusty vintage KA which I'd love more than anything simply because the hubby won't have it and I have to bow to him on this. He puts up with all my other eccentricities around collecting except for the major kitchen appliances, it's non-negotiable.

So I'm going to be looking at Bosch and possibly another Miele if there's any deals to be had although I really don't want to lay out that type of money. We loved the one we had back in Calgary. Problem also is there is no Miele dealer here anymore, the closest is 60 mi away.
I'm looking at the website for that closest Miele dealer and see they also sell makes like Bosch, Blomberg? AEG, Asko as well as all the traditional brands like GE, Frigidaire, Elux ..

Bosch prices range all over the clock and it sure gets confusing.

Anyone know anything about this Blomberg (German made) brand? They look a lot like a Miele or Bosch. I'd be a little shy of buying one,, re future servicing etc.

Anyone with anything terrible to say about Bosch or glowing reports?

Primarily I the most quiet of quiet dishwashers..I don't want to hear anything but my hearbeat standing beside it, dead silence, like our old Miele. The lowest sound ratings I'm seeing are around 46 Db.

Lowes here in Canada has a Bosch Series 5 on sale for $999, anyone have one of those?
 
One thing I forgot to mention with this machine. A few months ago it seemed like the rinse-aid light was coming on frequently to the point that after about 2-3 washes it was empty again. I don't know if it was all coming out in the rinse or leaking somewhere into the door.. if it was that could possibly explain something, rinse agent getting up to the electronics when the door is flat down or ?
 
Make sure if you are opening it up to check on the fuse that you inspect the control board for any physical damage such as burns, warping, etc. After what happened to my 2004 KA - which nearly caught on fire - I'd recommend that.

We replaced ours with a Bosch with a built-in softener (link below.) It is the ADA version so certainly not a "tall tub" but remarkably, everything seems to fit and comes out perfectly clean, shiny and streak-free. Cycle times are quite a bit longer than the KA but I can handle that since I'm usually starting it later in the evening anyway.

Good luck!

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_02216793000P?prdNo=1&blockNo=1&blockType=G1
 
Pete, it could be a loose connection at the junction box underneath the machine where it is hardwired into the house wiring.  How do I know?, it has happened to us twice after my mother bought a new KA.  Seems that the wire from the dishwasher to the copper house wiring becomes separated even though I used a wire nut.  So now I am going to have to find some kind of better wire nut so this does not separate again (possibly from the large current draw?).  Hobart KA units had a wiring block where one screwed the house wiring on, this one does not.
 
Pete,

I bought my Miele dishwasher from Coast Appliances here in Calgary.

They treated me right.

Good luck on your search.
 
2005 KA DW Fix ?

I would consider fixing the KA, as suggested it may just be a thermal cutout above the control board or a bad connection in the junction box where the house wiring connects to the DW. { Hobart has not had an actual screw type connection for the power since the 17 models ]

 

I would not recommend a Bosch DW to anyone,

 

1. They are MUCH harder to install and work on.

 

2. They have a poor long term relibility and some are under recall for fire potental.

 

3. They are MUCH smaller inside, if you like to wash lots of large items it gets full very quickly.

 

4. They have a messy filter so your final rinse water is strained over any left over food chunks.

 

5. They are not Union Built by employees that get domestic partner benefits.

 

 

This past Thursday I removed a 6 year old Bosch DW from a customers house [ it is a TOL all SS inside and out, buttons from one side to the other, impressive looking machine ] The customer got tired of having it repaired and bought a high end SS KA from us that I installed. When it was installed and I opened the door and pulled out the lower rack he and his wife could not believe how much larger it was inside.

 

PS If anyone wants a nice Bosch let me know I think it may just need a new fill inlet valve this time.
 
Loose connection fixed !

Bob, I just had to fix that same problem on my inlaws dishwasher that I installed a year ago. She was complaining of a "hot electrical smell", and the wires had melted because of increased resistance, from them separating in the junction box. The house wiring was thick stranded copper, creating a problem of keeping them secured together. I cleaned up the ends and SOLDERED them together, then put a larger wire nut cap back on. Yes, they will have to be cut off someday when the machine is replaced, but until then, that problem won't re-occur, I guarantee it.
 
I checked the connection and it's fine. So I spent a couple of hours perusing Sears, Lowes and the small independent dealer we bought our freezer from who will price match all comers. Sears had a Sears Elite (Bosch) TOL model on clearance for $1299 +tax and the independent store (whom I like btw) said he could get me a
KitchenAid KUDE40FXWH in white (which I want) for $943 , which is a very very good price for in Canada. I just checked on Amazon (US website) where it's selling for slightly more . 46db sound level seems pretty good too.

One thing I noted on the Bosch was that in order to get better drying results it says to use rinse aid AND choose the sanitize option which leads me to thinking it's not the best dryer. (read some complaints on that online as well) I don't want to have to run the sanitize option and I don't use rinse aid anymore since that's already included in the tabs.

So I'm thinking of biting the bullet and gambling on another KA

http://www.amazon.com/Kitchenaid-KUDE40FXWH-Superba-EQ-Dishwasher/dp/B0041421G2
 
999.99 I'd have a stroke!

A dishwasher washer here (the "B" brand) only around £250.00

I think I would be shipping one over and just hooking it up onto the stove line.

I was also wondering do you have insurance cover plans over there? Not that I want to do a plug,but for example british gas do appliance care for around £13.50 per month covering 3 appliances....unlimited call out too! (enuff of the plugging already, I really don't work for BG.)

Changing to subject a bit,I have always wondered if the outlets on your ranges is 220 or 110? I am still holding onto the dream that one day I will be able to ship one of them over the pond.
pete
 
Actually Bosch dw's start at around $600 here but with rebates/sales etc you can often get them cheaper. They range up to around $1900 for the TOL model full price without any discounts.. They've got so many models to choose from it's very confusing.
I was just yapping with my sister on the phone who has a Kenmore Elite (Bosch) and she tells me she's had servicing 3 times in about 2 years and right now the detergent dispenser won't open automatically. So I think I'm going to pass on Bosch.

Dishwashers are 110v, Stoves and dryers are 220 v.
 
outlets

petek,my question about the outlets on ranges was because I wanted to know if companies had to make a 220 range of small appliances to would run from the 220 outlets provided on the ranges.

While I was living in spain,I bought a hamilton beach mixer that had an american plug.On closer inspection I saw the rating plate stated 110-220,so bought it.

Now living back in the uk and still using my HB.
pete
 
Overhere in Europe Bosch are quite reliable dishwashers. For many years Bosch dishwashers were the best sold in the Netherlands. I wonder if there is a quality difference between Bosch in North America and Bosch in Europe.

BTW, this KitchenAid has filters too that need maintenance, so I don't see what John's rant is about.
 
Pete,, the outlet(s) on the stoves themselves are 110v. Someone more stove knowledgable could probably chime in here but I don't think they're available on US model stoves anymore for some reason. They still are on some Canadian models. I recollect something about a requirement they be fused? which all the Cdn models always had. If it wasn't that there was also something about identical US models did not meet Canadian electrical requirements and that if you had a US model stove your house insurance wouldn't cover any damage, aka fire etc attributed to have been caused by the stove.
 
Louis. Hard to say about the quality, you have to wonder if perhpas they've been cheapened over the last few years like a lot of things, or is it the addition of all these electronic controls. Cutting back on the quality to bring them down to a more competitive price point over here? One thing I did notice about them when I was looking at a fairly new one that was at the Habitat store awhile back, the whole bottom frame appeared to be made of molded plastic, some of the new ones I saw yesterday, the bottom of the tub was plastic, not stainless steel.
 
Bosch DW relibility

Bosch DWs may be the most reliable brand of what is sold in Europe, I don;t have any way of knowing. I do know that North American appliances from stoves to refrigerators, washers, dryers and DWs have been the most durable and long lived here. Bosch DWs have been much better the last few years, I hope they continue to be relibile over the longer term, time will tell. When Asko DWs hit here 10-15 years ago they set new records for trouble prone DWs and the brand is virtually nonexistent now.

 

It has always been interesting working here in Washington D C as I have a lot of customers that have lived all over the world and used lots of different appliances. I constantly have people who are amazed that we have so many major that are 20-30 years old still working well who have lived in Europe and else where. They either think we are cheap to keep them so long or are amazed that they still work. Just this week I had a women say she only has Miele appliances but they never keep them more than 10 years, she couldn't understand why the owner of the house they were renting were having me fix a 21 year old WP DW, she did say it worked great but was noisy LOL.

 

New KA DWs with filters, I would avoid the machines that do not have the food disposer, the filter machines usually cost more and don't work any better.
 
Well I bought the KA KUDE40FXWH, the price was right and included free delivery and no tax as well so I figure it was as good a deal as I'm going to get. Plus I'm getting it from a local independent dealer and I'm hoping the machine is at least built in the US or Canada. One day of appliance shopping and googling was enough for me this time which isn't normal because normally I enjoy looking at all the stuff out there. I don't think my hearts in it right now and I just wanted to get it over with quick. Just hope I don't get a lemon. I didn't even realize this one has those extra power scrub nozzles on the back wall for pots and pans, hope they work as intended. It does have the filter and the S shaped spray arm. I'm not too concerned about the filter aspect. We had that in our previous Miele and seldom was the time it ever needed cleaning, only took a second to do. I'd rather the machine have the filter and be quieter than not. One thing I'm not as thrilled about is that it's the model with the crossbar handle and hidden controls so you can't see the remaining cycle times. I'd rather see the controls.
Now I have to wait until thurs or Fri until it gets delivered, bummer.
 
Happily my new KA was delivered today and I set about removing the old to make room for the new. It's only the second time I've ever installed a dishwasher and overall it went quite smoothly. For one thing I was able to use the old drain hose. Not too much cursing, mainly when I disconnected the drain hose from the old machine and way more water came pouring out than I expected. As well trying to tighten up the tiny tiny screws underneath the door handle with the supplied tiny thin allen key.. Allen Keys are the work of the devil. I was sweating by that time because I'd turned the power off including thhe a/c and it was warm and humid in the house..
Ran a small load on the Pro Wash with the Pro Scrub feature activated. That's those 4 jets on the backwall like on the Sears Elite or Pro..to see how well they scrubbed my baking pans. I won't know till the morning when I get back to the house because I had to head over to moms to momsit her for the night.

It's pretty darned quiet though it is not silent as our old Miele which was dead silent. I don't think it's actually any quieter than the 6 year old KA it's replacing with the hydrosweep 4 arms. This one has a two arm spray. The only insulation difference I noticed is that they have attached some sort of rubber matting on the sides and backwall then the very same white fiber blanket just rests over the top and sides. This rubber stuff doesn't even cover all of the sides or the back, maybe 2 square feet on each panel.
Oh one other thing.. I had to go buy a new L connector that doesn't come with the machine, to hook up the water line,,why they changed to needing that I wonder.

I took some pics but there back at the house.. I'll post em tomorrowl
 
the lights
I didn't realize when I bought this one that it lacked a Rinse & Hold feature.. which is kind of annoying especially at this price point. 95% of the time we just use the normal wash cycle on a dw but I did use the Rinse & Hold occasionally.

It has a One Hour wash cycle button which according to the instrx book uses more power and about twice the amount of water. One hour doesn't include an optional dry setting though, just wash and rinse.

petek++3-20-2012-15-37-15.jpg
 
I see this Kitchen aid comes w/out the 4 way washarm and has a removable filter. Does anyone know how this mechanism compares to the older Whirlpool it replaced?
 
@Louis and Petek

Bosch in USA are made in a plant in either Georgia or South Carolina. One would think that the pump and other mechanicals are the same on both sides of the Atlantic. The features and design of the controls differs, however, as I've seen Bosch in European stores that do not resemble what they sell here in terms of controls (but racks appear similar). I should add that Bosch is by far the most common European DW brand sold here. Some large stores like Lowes (which are everywhere) sell them, which means that even people in smaller towns and rural America can buy them (as opposed to only large cities like Atlanta or Chicago or Grand Rapids*). It's also easier to find service and parts for Bosch versus what to us are more exotic brands like Asko or Miele. Miele is not uncommon, but there are more service companies here that repair Bosch than Miele. I think one of the selling points for Bosch is that you supposedly get European design and quality, but a brand that is widespread enough that it is easy to find servicing and parts (I don't know about rural America, however).

My middle-of-the-line model is from 2001 and has never needed a repair or adjustment. One of my patients owns the local appliance store in town (no, I do not enjoy special discounts....) and he advised keeping my old machine going for as long as possible, by that he meant if it needs a $150-200 repair, then repair it and avoid having to buy a new one for as long as possible, because the newer Bosch models that he sells do not seem to have the same durability as the older models. In addition, he said that final rinse temps have been dumbed down so that at end of cycle, dishes/glasses are still not fully dry, and his customers with new machines find they have to open the door and air dry the contents for an hour or so before they are ready to be put away. In my Bosch, as soon as the cycle is over, the dishes are dry, though of course the steel interior sides are wet. He said the cleaning ability is about the same, though cycles take even longer now to accomplish the same task (because they are using even less water than models a decade old).

*Louis, that is a joke for you. There ARE people in Netherlands who consider Grand Rapids, Michigan to be a "major" city of the USA. And let's not forget Hope College (Dutch Reformed Church college) in Holland, Michigan, which is not surprisingly a center for tulip bulb production in USA. In the 1980s, I remember that a friend of yours (Trixi) visited Los Angeles and urged Californians to buy and plant more imported flower bulbs. Apparently the Princess of Orange did not know much about California gardening: tulip bulbs must be kept in the refrigerator for eight weeks to simulate winter, then you plant in December, and you get them only one year. They don't come back a second year, unless you dig them up and store them in sawdust over the summer. Sounds like fun, no? I'd like to see her do that at Soestdijk or Huis ten Bosch. Ha! However, narcissus and freesia will survive year after year here, and freesia for us is an OUTDOOR plant. Not something in a pot on a Dutch coffee table in February that you look at while stirring your coffee and complaining about the weather. ;) (the national sport).

For the uninitiated, the women in the photo below are:

Left: then-Crown Princess Beatrix, today Queen of the Netherlands and owner of what has to be the largest hat collection in the country

Right: her mother, Queen Juliana, now deceased. Compared to her somewhat-regal (but popular) daughter, she had a very informal style in spite of being (at the time) the wealthiest woman in the world (Shell Oil and all that stuff). Unlike Queen Elizabeth, most of whose "wealth" is held in trust for the nation and cannot be sold (and is not her personal property), the Dutch royal family has very large stock and real estate portfolios which are "private" and "can" be sold or liquidated

passatdoc++3-21-2012-10-08-47.jpg
 
Steam Vent Discharge

As you use this machine, you will want to keep an eye on the finish of your cabinets. I have two of these newer model kitchenaids in my kitchen and they are screwing up my cabinet finish. During the wash cycle (I generally do the 1 hour wash), they pour so much steam out of these vents that my cabinet fronts have copius amounts condensate collected on them. I have thought about pulling the dishwasher forward to stop this, but that would mean that I would see the side of the unit (the insulation) sticking out in front of the face frame of my cabinets.

You would think with all the steam they putout during the wash that they might dry the dishes, but I am going to tell you oh nay-nay. Unless I open the door at least once (if not twice) during the dry cycle to let all the steam out, the dishes are not dry.

I will say though, that the units do clean somewhat decently.
 

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