KDS-58 Rack odd question

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jkbff

jkbff

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Hey all!

 

It is apparent that I have too many odd sized objects that I want to cram into my KA and am wondering if I can use commercial standard plastic racks like the ones from Vollrath or something like that? I need a rack with no tines. 

 

The vollrath's I've been looking at supposedly measure to 19.75" square, my rack measures wheel edge to wheel edge 20" if I am measuring it correctly... I need 1/8th inch on each side... Unless the 19.75 will fit? Has anyone tried this? Or does anyone know of a carrier I can use to hold the rack?

 

I suppose I could always order the racks and see if I can find a way to mount pegs on it or something so the rack can slide?

 

I am too used to loading a commercial washer rack to the gills and haven't quite adjusted to this rack... I'd probably order a rack with tines as well.

 

I still am hoping the part numbers and what-not pop up for that Undermount Hobart wash-arm conversion, I hadn't used my DW for a few days and when I did last night, the wash arm wouldn't spin.. I took the arm off, put it back on and it spun freely... something must have gotten in the bushing or something, but I have a feeling the arm is going to need replacing at some point... The arm feels like there is a slight bit of play while on the peg and the one from my donor machine is cracked...

 

With all of this said, I am surprised with all the SubZero and Wolf type appliances on the Market (brands made to mock commercial equipment) that someone hasn't made a consumer dishwasher that uses commercial racks... If I could find a machine like an under counter hobart that would let me use general consumer grade cascade and had a dry cycle, I'd be all over it.
 
NOPE!!!!

You will not be able to use the commercial racks in the domestic machine unless you have either the original carrier rack used in machines like the WM series shown in the picture. The Kitchenaid rack works in it because the commercial Hobarts were identical to the domestic units but with stainless tanks. When Hobart replaced the WM's with the WM5's they were the European 18 series machines dumbed down for the American market and they had a small piece of stainless steel welded to the ramp that the wheels of the standard KA rack would roll on so that the narrower rack like the one you want to use would slide on and not fall down into the tank.
The WM carrier racks were excedingly expensive . There are 2 left and they cost 609.15.Is it really worth it for you to go this way?

Did you check the wash arm support to make sure the white bushing is not loose and moving up to block the wash arm?And if you need another washarm, I am sure I have one that will work for you!

P.S. when I get a chance I will post the numbers of the conversion kit for you.
Again. probably cheaper to find a commercial machine for your home on Ebay than making all these conversions.

 
 jeff_adelphi, please please post more pictures!!!

 

If you have an extra carrier, I'll purchase it from you if you don't need it.

 

That being said, I am going to try to make one... A family member owns a metal shop so I'm gonna put my resources to work... 

 

SteveT, I don't suppose you have a cad drawing of that carrier do you? :P What is this European 18 you are talking about, how do you mean dumbed down and I didn't know the WM series existed... I have to find one of those now, that stainless tank is beautiful! What are the timer cycles, does it have a water heater?

 

With that, as far is this machine being worth all the money for conversions... Baring anything catastrophic happening to the tank, I should be able to get parts for almost everything except the timer, right? I mean, Hobart still makes a pump that fits this machine if I read correctly, and if I converted to the new style commercial wash arm, those parts would be available, the seals are still available, no? Given the way the constant rinse arm is, that is a wash either way if I ever replace it, and I have two middle racks now though one has a broken china guard.

 

If the timer fails, I know enough in electronic engineering to get my self in trouble.. Given how this machine was mechanically timed to begin with, it could be electronically controlled and customized and programmed because all it really would be is relays clicking on and off driven by an arduino controller. If the dispensers failed, I could seal those off or even put a glass window in the door and run a commercial chemical dispensing pump to flow in with the water fill, all driven off of that controller... 

 

All of that said, the answer is yes, because this 'tank' of a dishwasher still cleans better than anything I've experienced today and it has so much potential once things start failing... Granted I can get the main parts that matter... Seals and pump housings mostly.

 

I have always liked appliances and gadgets and what have you, but hobart and kitchenaid have always been the most fascinating machines/companies (granted kitchenaid was a division) to me... I wished I could find spec sheets and users guides from the machines that were made that crossed over to eachother. That still has my heart just pounding away that there is a commercial version of the KDS. Thank you so much for posting that PDF.

 
 
WMs

Great Machines

Uncomplicated unlike the LX series.

Here's a link to Bobbin's WM rebuild.

I wonder how he's doing with the UM-4 rebuild ?

www.automaticwasher.org

WM-5 Hobart Rebuilt Pictures

I finally taken some pictures of my (PRE-1985) Hobart WM-5 Dishwasher. This model has a built in booster, 208/1/60. I just tested the motor and it seems to work great!. The only problem I have is replacing the tub gasket....I have a new Hobart door gasket (thanks to Ebay). Does anyone have any...
www.automaticwasher.org www.automaticwasher.org
 
I have several KAs

...and my husband is a caterer, so I also have dishracks. I have been able to slide in a plastic commercial dishrack with no problem. Rested perfectly on the wheel tracks on the tank side.
 
William637,

 

Would you be willing to post a picture of one of the racks in it? What KA do you have? If you got back to me with a pic, I could have my racks here by monday :-)

 

I miss catering... I'm 26 and have had way too many jobs that I should ever admit to, but cooking has always been a passion of mine and I loved catering... Did it for 2 years almost... I only took the job because the lady I worked under was very well known for her food and I wanted her to teach me everything. When I finally left (didn't get along with the greedy owner anymore) she gave me 8 binders of recipes she had created that he stole from her and started his business with... Told me to take them and start a business someday. I'll get back to my true passion someday... 

 

I've always found it easier to cook for 200 than for 1... ...
 
toploader,

 

After just learning these machines existed, I spent all of last night scouring through the archives (via search) and through hobarts resource library to find out as much as I can... These are beautiful!!! 

 

I appreciate the link!

I *HAVE* to find one to add to my collection... There are a few LX's and such on ebay for a few hundred dollars, but the one I really want looks like it has gone through a kitchen fire... I can't imagine how some of these machines have been treated in their commercial life... Would they be worth the investment, I mean they are being discarded for one reason or another... Commercial Kitchen Owners don't just decided one day that they want a new dishwasher lol...
 
My Hobart,

Is a model WMP-CL, It was built in the early 70's. It had a chlorine injection system that I have removed, so it had no booster heater. It has a 4 minute cycle, wash and two rinses. It cleans very well, but the dishes must be freshly soiled, no dried or baked on soil. It's great for large dinners, as it can do several loads in short order.

jeff_adelphi++10-4-2013-10-56-22.jpg
 
KitchenAid Parts,

The tub is the same as a KitchenAid KDSS-16, but no dispenser in the door. As you can see I have made several modifications, I blocked up the overflow drain in the right rear corner with a air vent from a later KA, and installed a float switch in the left front corner. I also use a KA filter as it requires much less cleaning then the much more protective Hobart filter. When I rebuilt this DW about 10 years ago, I was told by the local Hobart office that they had no parts except the plastic racks. I was able to get what I needed from Whirlpool, except a timer that Midwest timer had.

jeff_adelphi++10-4-2013-11-09-45.jpg
 
SteveT, 

 

I was looking again at the wash arm support, the white round plastic diverter or what ever it is is fixed into place... I am not sure what caused the arm to not spin, but when I tried to manually spin it, it took a lot of force to turn it... like turning a steering wheel while parked. After I lifted it up and put it back down, it spun freely with no resistance... I'm hoping it was just a freak occurrence. 

 

If I knew the condition of the pump/seals on the KDI-58 I used as a donor, I'd start messing around with it this winter and make an electronic controller for it... It showed signs of a leak when I was robbing parts. The more I keep thinking about these WM machines, the more I want to find one or two just so I can rebuild one and make a completely custom interface for it and get rid of the short timer.. I'd just want one with the sump heater and no the booster heater so I could stay with 125 volt... Swap out the temp probe with one I could get variable resistance readings on (assuming the ones that are used are a 180 on / off type thermometer) and have it fill, heat to 140 wash / 180 rinse then run for how ever long, drain and repeat...  I could control everything, make it use a bit less water by having less cycles than the domestic machines, it'd heat the water like the stupid new front load washers and run... 

 

I was gonna snoop through Ephemera and see what I could find about the WM's and there isn't anything lol... But the resource library has given me a lot... Just confused about the booster's vs sump heaters..

 

*edit* Found this... Please send the pdf! Please lol...  

<blockquote>

<span style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: x-small;">Post# 240758 , Reply# 12   10/6/2007 at 8:04pm [COLOR=red; font-size: 9pt](2,190 days old)[/COLOR] by <a name="startPOSTER_14026.12"></a>stevet <a name="endPOSTER_14026.12"></a><a name="endPOSTER_14026.12">(palm coast florida)      </a></span></span> posts: 1,456 <a name="startMAOL_14026.12"></a> <a name="endMAOL_14026.12"></a> <a name="startCOMX_14026.12"></a>
<a name="startCOMX_14026.12"></a>
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Not many of those oldies out there any more!

Sorry, Neptune,
The last undercounter Hobart Dishwasher to use the cast iron blue beauty washarm was the Kitchenaid 14 series which was discontinued in 1964 and replaced by the now famous Hydrosweep arm used first in the 15 series There are still some out there. There were some still in boxes when Whirlpool took over and even some large distributors across the country had some still boxed up. In fact, in one of the forunms at Kitchenaid.com. one of the moderators mentioned that they had found a brand new 14in one of the warehouses. I suggested that they place it next to the KD10 they have at the Kitchenaid Museum in Greenville Ohio. 

But the Last Commercial undercounter to used the arm (p/n 73515) was the model UM series and that was oficially discontinued in late 1979/1980 though there were still some being installed after that. I was told by a highly placed sales manager that the reason the UM was actually discontinued was because the dies had finally worn out and there was no interest in retooling for new ones. Pretty plausable since they had already been producing the 15,16 and 17 machines and had introduced the 18 series by then.
They were still producing the WM series which was based on the 15/16 tanks and did so until the early mid 80's when they released the WM-5 Series. Now this was based on the 18 series but the tanks were actually brought over from Europe. It was unique in that the whole tank was made from a single sheet of Stainless Steel which was punched and bent and then folded and roller sealed to form a complete dishwasher tank.

The European units were more complicated than the American units and they also used the same designs for the KDS18E series machines, made in Germany and distributed to the rest of the world for Domestic consumption!
I have pictures of that unit in PDF format if anyone would like to see it. It is to large a file to post here.

For the record, the last Big machine Hobart made with the cast Iron washarms(top and bottom) was the AM10-11 series.Talk about a wall of water!! This was a radical departure in Electrical design of Hobart dishwashers. It was the first machine they produced that had Solid State controls. It had a master board to which numerous other boards were clipped on to control the timer, fill, motor protection and temperature functions.
The following model paved the way for lighter Stainless steel embossed arms which had large openings in the upper and lower washarms similar to the look of the holes in the Hydro Sweep arm only much bigger. Another wall of water machine. This unit continued with the controls of the previous 10-11 models.

The next improvement came in 1983/84 with the AM14 series which shared all the mechanicals with the 12 series, but now had a single control board to do all the functions of washing and rinsing the dishware. Unique to this machine was the electrical controls were all 24 volts which improved the reliability of the machine tremendously. As technicians, we appreciated the durability and ease of repairing these units. There were only a few typical mechanical repairs that they ever needed and it was very rare to have to replace a conrtol board on one. Even to this day there are some very old am14 machines with all their original electrical controls working day in and day out.

Boy do I get long winded! Sorry Guys!</blockquote>[this post was last edited: 10/4/2013-22:19]
 
Jeff...

That's one beautiful WM. Just Pristine.

When they were around because of the pump drain, they could be installed anywhere. Any kitchen I ran, I always had my Chemical Guy find and rebuild a WM and put it under the soiled dish table for washing glasses only.

I bet there are a few in Church, VFW, or American Legion Basement kitchens throughout the country that have only washed the "Pancake Breakfast" dishes or the "Schpaghetti Dinner" Fund raisers etc. Most of those machines are used 3-4 times a year if that.
 
pica of a commercial rack in a residential ka

Here you go. One pic is of a rack in a 22 series machine I have for parts. The other pic is in a 19 series. I have also put in an a 15 series that I have since parted out.

Basically a commercial rack should work from the 15 series until they switched to the tall tub design.

william637++10-5-2013-14-43-13.jpg
 
William637 You have made my weekend!! My racks are ordered and should be here next week. Thanks so much for posting those pics!!

So the racks don't move side to side and fall on the wash arm or anything? That really was my concern was that they fit but would slip or something...

This is awesome!!

I am absolutely excited to be able to wash my decanters and tea jars that won't fit over the tines!! OOO and my stock pot! I just hate having to bend the tines slightly for that thing...

I'm still going to see if I can find a carrier just to have it cause who knows maybe a WM will be in my near future but this takes the urgency off. That and I'm not finding the time to go down and make one after hours...

jeff_adelphi, if you wanna sell one of your carriers, I'd be interested..

(LOL why am I so excited over this?)
 
Foot pedals---

The foot pedals control the hot and cold water at the sink faucet. It's just two dishwasher valves connected to the supply lines of the faucet. I have wired it to turn on the cold water when the disposer is running.

I have thought about installing a sump heater and thermostat in the Hobart. The nice thing about stainless steel is when you need to drill extra holes.

jeff_adelphi++10-5-2013-17-45-1.jpg
 
You just gave me an idea how I wanna do my timed tempering valve for my 'modern' washer that doesn't get hot... 

 

 

Anyways, how do you guys do the shower curtain or plexiglass to watch the inside of the machine? I wanna see how this machine runs because I'm wondering if something isn't wrong with the middle arm... For the life of me, I can not get plastics clean in the top rack and they seem to warp in the bottom with the heated dry...  This machine doesn't seem to like plastics or I have something wrong lol..

 

And I agree about the stainless, it would be nice to be able to drill some holes if I wanted to modify something... I've got to find me a WM...
 
Do some digging..

If the wash arms seem to turn freely and you are getting enough water in the tank during the fills, then maybe your wash impeller is worn or broken. I would remove the lower washarm support by removing the 4 screws that hold it to the lower section. This will reveal the wash impeller. It is easily removed for inspection if you don't see anything obviously wrong with it. Just remove the philips head screw,the beveled washers, the spacer and the keyed washer and the impeller will come off. Use two hands to get it to move if it is stuck.

You will see immediately if there is something wrong with it. If so, you will need a new one(I have lots of them) and they are still available from Hobart under part number 241052. You won't need a seal or anything else at that point. But it is worth a shot. Based on it's age and who knows what kind of prior use, it may be time to change it out. Also, you may find that the wash arm support itself is warped and letting water escape when the pump runs.

BTW, when you reassemble the top half, do not wail down on the screws. You can strip out the holes very easily. Just gently snug them up.

Hope this helps
 

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