Launderess versus Miele W1070 The Continuing Saga

[launderess]

Am posting this in "Imperial" since by all accounts my Miele W1070 was made sometime in 1990's, it now being 2021 that's certainly more than twenty years, closer to thirty actually. My god, how old does that make me? *LOL*

Any who just as one was resigned to never finding a solution to wonky timer/programmer issue, up pops something.

Was being sold as a dishwasher timer. But part numbers match that of my washer's timer/programmer. Called MieleUSA and after bit of muddle and then an argument (don't ask), parts department and tech support stated that part #02085001 is for Miele W1070 washer. Since any further probing only seemed to draw ire, left things at that.

After surrendering my pin money budget for week the thing arrived and now must get sorted.

Am still not 100% convinced this timer is for my washer. Wouldn't someone selling parts know what they were for or at least where they came?

Interestingly the numbers on Crouzet timer motors seem same as those in my machine. Markings seem same as well.

How does one remove timer/programmer from Miele washer so can swap old out for new?

Is this truly same timer, or am I mistaken? What would happen if it isn't and one powers up machine. Will something explode or otherwise damage washer?

Would it be simple just to swap out timer motors instead of taking out entire programmer? Timer motors seem wired into a quick connect, but where they connect into isn't clear from pictures one took previously.

[this post was last edited: 9/18/2021-04:28]

 

[launderess]

Original timer/programmer as installed

 

[statomatic]

Hi, these timers are from the 88714xxx series, check if the last three digits are the same.
Of course if the new timer is for a dishwasher it wouldn't work in your machine.

Motors can be swapped by removing the metal clips, before replacing check if the part numbers matches (start by 82432xxx) and also type of gear, rotation and voltage.

You can remove the terminals from the quick connect with a thin screwdriver or a metal pin, it's a bit tedious to do but worth the effort if you don't want to replace the whole timer.

 

[launderess]

Bonjour!

Oui, la même chose "88714148"

 

[launderess]

Bonjour!

Oui, la même chose "88714148"

 

[ozzie908]

@launderess

I may be wrong here but I always thought that dishwasher timers would not have 2 motors why would it need them?

Also as your timer does advance on some cycles that would indicate its motors are working fine but the timer itself is worn out.

Would you be comfortable taking your timer out even if you leave the connections on it would allow you to see it better and you can place it next to the new one and see if its a match.

Good luck Austin

 

[combo52]

Dual Timer Motor DW Timers

Hi Austin, Lots of DW timers have two motors, usually the fast motor is for setting the cycle start point and for skipping parts of the cycle for shorter cycles and then resetting or canceling a cycle.

 

Even my 90s German built DW has dual timer motors.

 

John 

 

[ozzie908]

@combo52

Well shut my mouth ....lol Goes to prove I can learn something new each day..

I have not in my days of fixing etc ever come accross a dual motor timer in a DW but then again the older ones I worked on were predominately Zanussi and other euro designs.

So would you agree with the diagnoses of faulty timer as opposed to motors ?

Austin

 

[brisnat81]

Hi Laundress,

If it’s installed the same as in my w423, pull the knob off the front and that should allow you to reach the two screws behind that hold the timer on. Then gently move the timer back a couple of inches and you should be able to lift it up and out. I can’t remember whether the whole control panel needed removing on mine, or if it was just the knob. It’s been quite a few years.

That should let you do some comparisons, before you try removing any of the terminal blocks, take lots of photos. If they are the same, it’s then a case of transferring the terminal blocks one at a time across, on the 423, they were all individual wires, so that was a bloody nightmare.

It looks complicated, but as long as your careful and methodical, it’s not that difficult. If the TNR numbers are the same, then it will be the same part, just make sure it’s the number off the timer body rather than the timer motors.

I hope this helps

Nathan.

 

[gizmo]

If you are lucky you might find that each wire is printed with a number that corresponds to a number next to each terminal on the timer. So, one at a time, you swap wire 24 to terminal 24, wire 30 to terminal 30, and so on.
Take photos of each side of the existing timer, so no wire or terminal goes un-photographed.

 

[launderess]

Oh bother....

Had hoped terminal connectors came as a block, not individually wired. Have no way of finding this out since Miele USA's policy on tech support means that service is virtually non existent. Well at least in giving detailed DIY support anyway.

@nathan

Read your saga of W423 timer with keen interest.

https://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?12009

 

[gizmo]

Hi Launderess
My advice above was generic, I didn't know your machine and if it has block connectors or individual wires.
I just looked at your photos above.
It looks like your timer has plastic block connectors. Good news. Phew!
If you are worried about getting block connectors mixed up (unlikely) you can use a Chinagraph pencil to make your own markings on each block with matching markings on the body of the timer, and so make it easy to get it right.
I generally swap each block one at a time any way, it depends how much slack you have in the wires will determine if you have space to swap it block by block, or have to remove all blocks from old timer and insert all blocks to new timer.

I'm not sure if the name Chinagraph is used in USA, I'm referring to wax pencils or grease pencils used for writing on china, glass, etc. I find them very handy, the marks wipe off when you are finished if you want to.

 

[launderess]

At least one mystery solved.

Problem is not timer motors. Swapped out ones in my machine with those that came with "new" programmer control and results were same. That is timer did not advance when signaled.

After swapping things back watched and listened carefully, timer motors seem to be working as should, thus can now assume it is indeed entire timer/programer that is kaput.

Couldn't get timer knob off, and didn't want to damage anything so that was extent of project for today. Will have to reach out to Miele or someone to find out how one is supposed to get that timer knob off.

On another note those clever chops at Miele never fail in their German engineering. At least for this timer no hard wiring necessary, everything is connector blocks far as one could see. Swapping out timer motors is piece of cake since they are connected by a block as well. Indeed looked at parts diagram for my washer and Miele sells both block connectors. One would have to then wire things up, but don't think that applies here.

So that's me for you....

 

[ozzie908]

@launderess

Any chance of a picture of the timer knob?

I think it will just push on though as it has the D shape spindle to insert in the back of the knob you can try a little gentle persuasion I have used grip pliers after placing a cloth over the part you turn its most likely rusted in place and maybe a little oil some of the spray type squirt it down the back of the knob if you can..
Am pleased you have been able to ascertain what the issue is and am sure once you have worked out how to undo it and get the new on installed Bertha will be as good as new.

Good luck and keep us posted.

Austin

 

[statomatic]

Knobs can be removed by pulling a string wrapped around the timer shaft, I do that sometimes when restoring vintage hifi.

 

[launderess]

I give up!

Neither string trick nor pliers have succeeded in getting this timer knob off. Only thing one has accomplished thus far is cracking once pristine plastic facia.

Temperature and cycle selector knobs come off easily enough. But this timer knob just won't budge.

Cannot use any sort of "liquid wrench" or other things because cannot even get blasted that far out.

Knicked snaps off internet to show as example...

 

[eddy1210]

Dear L

Once you get the timer knob off there will be screws underneath that will facilitate the removal of the whole timer. Then it's just a matter of plug and play. Good luck and the new timer you have should solve your problems.

 

[gizmo]

try warming the knob with a hair dryer to soften the plastic? It will take a lot of warming to get heat down to the centre of the knob, so I'd go for lower temp over a longer time to minimize the risk of damaging any plastic.
Other trick is to use some sort of plastic-friendly spray lube on the knob shaft. You would use one that has a very fine tube that presses into the spray nozzle, so you could either direct the spray in behind the knob, or if you can't even pry the knob that far out, then spray from in behind the fascia.

Part of the trick is to apply an even pull with no sideways force.

Last resort, if you can get a spare knob, is wreck the knob to get it off the shaft. Just grip the knob with strong pliers and yank or wriggle it off.

 

[launderess]

Three Cheers and a Tiger for me!

Didn't want to try using a wet warmed cloth so close to electric, so opted for a blow dryer. Heat, stop, pry, heat some more, stop, pry; heat again, stop, pry.... Finally knob began to give to point using ones fingernails was able to get things going. In end but of a tug on knob and thing gave way. Of course now will have to book a manicure next week....

With that bit done was just matter of getting two tiny screws off timer (being careful not to drop them down behind facia panel. Then opened up washer.

These new programmers for W1070 and other models of series are easier to swap out I should think than W463 and others that required wiring up connections. Just pull off connector blocks, swap out timer, reconnect being careful to ensure what went and goes where. There are some markings that indicate what went where, but using Gizmo's suggestion at least marked those in front. Didn't have anything else so lipstick had to suffice.

In any event wires that have been in place for thirty or more years remained rather pretty much in place after disconnecting. Was just matter of putting things back, fitting timer back onto front panel, fixing screws.... Hint, if anyone is ever going to attempt this use a screwdriver or drill bit with magnetic tip. This cuts down chances of those tiny screws dropping down behind facia.

With everything connected and battened down beneath bonnet came moment of truth; plugged in washer and turned timer dial along with programming dial to "Cottons Short", and pushed "On".

Half expecting a big *kaboom* stood far as one could get from machine. Instead Big Bertha simply moved timer to fill portion and waited.

With no incoming water (cannot do that obviously with front of machine open. Turned off machine and moved timer to "Graduated Spin". Again standing far back as could, hit "On" button....

Berta simply engaged pump and began graduated spin series as normal, but now timer advanced as it should!

Let things go until main spin began and Bertha went through paces as normal! Timer advanced as it should during spin, and when nudged forward to shorten cycle timer advanced to stop spinning, do graduated spin, then shut herself off.

It's too late for doing a full cycle with water and all, further testing will have to wait until tomorrow or later in week.

Will say there is noticeable more noise from timer motors than before. Plenty of audible clicking, snapping, and ticking.

Thanks lads, couldn't have done it with you...

Now off to find that bottle of cream sherry!

 

[launderess]

Funny innit?

Supposedly Miele ended production of W770, W1065, W1070, and similar model series by 1989. But both Crouzet programmer/timer one has are marked " 07 AVR "1992" Unless one's French is mistaken that is 7th of April 1992.

Can understand why Miele would continue to lay in supply of parts after production ended. But these timers are all original to washers, not replacements far as one can tell.

Here's another thing...

Miele service has purchase date of washer in their system as 1/1/1989. That's New Years Day, and nothing would be open even back in 1989 to purchase an appliance. We received unit second hand late 1990's or early 2000's, cannot recall.

MieleUSA did tell us some time ago sales of W1070 and W1065 along with matching dryers didn't end until 1994. Indeed one could find sales adverts from 1991 for machines in question. https://books.google.com/books?id=c...YSF0QHf8IH4AQ#v=onepage&q=Miele W 1070&f=true

Am thinking because W1070 and W1065 were special models adapted for sale in North America, production ran longer than in Europe. There obviously were newer models for Germany and other European markets.

In 1995 Miele sought a waiver from DOE for their W1918, W1903 and W1030 washers.

https://www.google.com/books/editio...dq=Miele+W1918&pg=PA42555&printsec=frontcover

Without said waiver Miele couldn't sell those washing machines in USA I believe. Without anything new to replace W1070 and W1065 those washer may have remained in production and thus for sale in USA longer than their European cousins.

German spares website list end production date for W1070 and W1065 as 1994.[this post was last edited: 9/26/2021-04:44]

 

[launderess]

Don't have way to upload videos.

But here is W770 going though its paces. Gives you an idea of how timers on these washer go.

 

[foraloysius]

According to the text under the video, the washer in that video is from 1983.

One can only speculate why they were so much longer made for the American market than for the European market. Or is the end of production date a theoretical one as a date to start counting for the end of production for parts availability?

Fact is that the successory line to the W765 etc. (as those models were named in Europe) appeared on the market in 1989. Because I hoarded Miele brochures from that time, I have binders full of Miele brochures with that new line of washers and dryers. lol

My Miele W715 (see my photo album) was from 1991. It was a machine not only with Hydromatic, but also with Novotronic. Novotronic was something new on that series.

Perhaps Miele opened a new production line for the new series so it was possible to manufacture the old series longer? Did they do that because they wanted to introduce the new series step by step? We can only guess.

 

[launderess]

Having to petition federal government for a waiver, and then wait for a response meant Miele wouldn't have a washing machine in USA market in 1995 besides W1070 and W1065. How deep a supply Miele USA had of those washers at end of 1994 or in 1995 one does not know. There may have been machines sitting in Germany that could have been warehoused awaiting shipment as well.

Miele was granted an interim waiver from DOE later in 1995, which was made final in 1996.

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-1996-03-19/html/96-6569.htm

Virtually all German spare sites one has trawled for parts to fit W1070/W1065 say production ended in 1994. This while their various cousins ended in 1989 or so.

 

[foraloysius]

Thank you, interesting reading material! It looks like Whirlpool didn't like the Miele competition.

I guess Miele wasn't in a hurry to introduce these new models. So, can I assume that Miele didn't sell washers on the North American market for a few years?

 

[gizmo]

Cream sherry?
I would have thought an occasion such as this would have required celebrating with the dowager Lady Ursula's gooseberry wine.

 

[launderess]

"It looks like Whirlpool didn't like the Miele competition."

Probably not, but cannot see why Whirlpool would be so upset. Miele then, before and still now is really a niche part of laundry and other appliances market here in USA.

I mean it isn't as if Whirlpool doesn't or didn't then build front loading washing machines in Europe. Whirlpool owns Hotpoint, Bauknecht, and Indesit, all European brands.

Cannot tell from research so far when Miele started sales of W19XX models and matching dryers in USA exactly. Know they were on sale by 1996, but cannot pin down when they arrived.

Just because Miele stopped producing W1070 and W1065 in 1994, doesn't mean stocks vanished overnight. Years after W1918 W1903 and other 19XX models ended production one could find NOS machines lying about spare. One thus assumes same happened with W10XX and even the odd W770 and W765.

When asked a salesman why a lone W1918 was sitting on sale floor for months after model was discontinued (may have been more than a year), his response was that dealers had to purchase Miele appliances from MieleUSA, so the things couldn't be returned easily if at all. By contractual agreement prices were set by MieleUSA and dealers had little to nil wiggle room.

Usually when an appliance model is discontinued usual practice on this side of pond is to reduce price if it doesn't sell. Longer it sits sitting deeper price chops until it goes.

Sometime in 1980's through 1990's it was Asko, Creda, Bosch and Miele battling it out to bring European front loading washing machines to USA.

Since Miele W1070 and W1065 are 120v/208v-240v at 60hz they were useless outside of North America. Miele wasn't going to ship unsold machines back to Germany for a host of reasons. First being due to voltage and frequency differences they were basically useless.

Miele obviously orders huge amounts of parts when it commissions things from vendors. One wonders if this April 1992 was last batch of timer/programmers ordered from Crouzet. Since they are 115v/60hz couldn't be used on other Miele washers or dishwashers.

 

[launderess]

@ Gizmo

Ohhh, we're a little sauce box this morning aren't we! *LOL*

Find cream sherry rather soothing yet dignified.

"It's ok, leave the bottle".

 

[statomatic]

Well done, glad you sorted it out.

 

[launderess]

Merci beaucoup!

Won't claim total victory until run one or more full cycles to see how timer behaves.

Once that is finally sorted need to fit new hot water solenoid valve.

Alas while one is dreading the thought, that motor needs to come out for checking and probably replacing brushes. That is going to be an adventure.

It's of no use calling Miele USA for service call because am sure they will give "you're machine is old, obsolete, stop bothering us...." response. This and or "we don't do such repairs in field, your washer will need to be taken to New Jersey, work done, then sent returned. All at cost to you including parts, labor, and transit".....

 

[stricklybojack]

.
You may be able to get the motor rebuilt. I follow a lot of car repair guys on YouTube and they get around non-existent and/or impossibly expensive parts by finding shops that can still rebuild almost any starter, clutch, pump, etc.